08 450 go from DRW to SRW--HOW????????

[ACESPACK]

I bought a 450 Lariat to drive daily and haul occasationally a 10k. load. I checked with DOT and CHP here in California to make sure of what I needed to be legal. they assured me that if the truck had a factory bed I would not need an A lic or have to pull through the scales. Now that I own the truck and had a trailer built I got pulled over and written up for several violations. I was going to just sell this truck and buy a 250/ 350 single SRW but then I got to thinking, ny truck is perfect (I'm very particular) and if I just chanegd this thing to a single rear wheel and removed the 4450 markers, no body would know and I would get to keep my truck. I know I have seen late model 450's with single rear wheels on service trucks and state vehicals. I would think all I should need to do is change out the rear end and the front hubs to SW style. However, in my investigation dealer and salvage yards think I'm out of my mind. By the way this truck is a 2wd. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Jack

[NEVERSWEAT7]

I am not understanding why you got pulled over and did you actually have to take your truck through the scales? What are you pulling besides the 10K trailer.. are you commercial? Pulling doubles? I am missing something here.

I get you want to loose the dual rear wheels. It is your choice. What do the badges have to do with the CHP and the scales? If I am not mistaken the hub has extra long bolts just for connecting the outside dual wheel. If you run a single tire, the only thing I can see is the studs sticking out a little farther.

If there is something else, I am missing it. I have seen trucks running srw and that is the only thing I see as a result.

[SmokeyWren]

Two ways to do it.

One way is to simply remove both duals, then install the outside shiny wheel and leave the inside ugly wheel in the barn. Your stock tires have 3,970 pounds weight capacity each when mounted on a single wheel (not duals). So your rear GAWR would be limited to 7,940 pounds with one dual removed on each side and the rear tires pumped up to max (110 PSI?). That would result in a max GVWR of about 14,000 pounds, which is not much less than you have on a stock F-450 pickup.

Don't mess with the rear axle or the hubs, but you may want to replace the lug bolts in the rear hubs with the shorter lug bolts for SRW wheels.

But to do it right, so your pickup looks like an SRW pickup and not a dually with some tires removed, you need 4 new wheels with a 10-on-225mm hole pattern. Your stock wheels are 19.5"x6", but the new wheels could be 20"x8". Then you could mount the same tires the SRWs run, or LT265/75R20. With those tires, your 4.30 rear axle ratio would be an effective 4.02. Your speedo, odometer, and tripmeter would have a 6.5 percent error until you had the speedo calibrated for the taller SRW tires.

No need to change the rear axle or hubs. However, with 10-on-225mm hole pattern, you would probably have a real problem trying to find SRW wheels to fit. And the F-450 brake components are at least 1" more diameter than SRW brakes, so any SRW hub probably wouldn't work on an F-450.

If you want new wheels, then the answer is probably a custom wheel maker that can make you anything you can dream up. One source is: Stockton Wheel Service - Custom Wheels

One option might be to have Stockton widen your stock wheels from 6" to 8". Then instead of your 225/70R19.5 tires, you could run "super single" LT265/70R19.5. That would give you a rear axle ratio equivalent to 3.90, and get you back to your stock GVWR of 14,500. The Drive-axle tires available in that size include Michelin XDE2+, and the all-position tires available in that size include Michelin XZE2+:
Michelin Americas Truck Tires

But warning: those super single Michelins are not cheap.

[dgeesaman]

Originally Posted by ACESPACK

I bought a 450 Lariat to drive daily and haul occasationally a 10k. load. I checked with DOT and CHP here in California to make sure of what I needed to be legal. they assured me that if the truck had a factory bed I would not need an A lic or have to pull through the scales. Now that I own the truck and had a trailer built I got pulled over and written up for several violations. I was going to just sell this truck and buy a 250/ 350 single SRW but then I got to thinking, ny truck is perfect (I'm very particular) and if I just chanegd this thing to a single rear wheel and removed the 4450 markers, no body would know and I would get to keep my truck. I know I have seen late model 450's with single rear wheels on service trucks and state vehicals. I would think all I should need to do is change out the rear end and the front hubs to SW style. However, in my investigation dealer and salvage yards think I'm out of my mind. By the way this truck is a 2wd. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Jack

Can you not simply get some letters from DOT and CHP and carry them with you? How can you be receiving violations (that stick) if they are not correct?

David

[ACESPACK]

I hope I am responding correctly, this is the first forum I have ever attended. Thank you guys for the replies. Ok to answer first questions first. In California any truck with a GVW over 10K must go throught the scales, this includeds 350 DRW. This has never been invorced in the past but is now. The 450 was built specifically to avoid the scales, the is not right, the rules are clear if read, all trucks with factory installed pick up beds are not required to go through the scales, unless, it has over a 10k GVW. The trailer I haul was a 25ft, 23K, goosneck with dual tire, dual axle, tilt bed. I haul equipment for my own company, not for hire. The real kicker is that with my new trailer that has a GVW of 9,880, goosneck, single wheel, dual axle, I can haul my equipment with a 3/4 ton and avoid the scales and lic's, but if I use my 450 (eventhough the trailer and load dos'nt change) I must go through all of the crap. With regard to the the rear end just having long studs; that's not the way the C102 medium duty truck rear ends are built. I have pictures I can send whoever is interested. The axles actually runs all the way from the end of the outside hub to the center. I will be checking with Stockton Wheel to see if they can build be a set of wheels that will give me the proper offsets and widths to look correct under a non-dually bed design. Up front, the rotors that mount to spindles have a smaller 10 lug pattern, to that an extention is bolted that is four inchs long and increases the bolt pattern to a 10 bolt large pattern. I hope I have answers the questions. I look forward to you thoughts. By the way, if I could find a SRW 350 or 250 crew cab, as nice as my truck, I woud trade.

Jack

Jack

Originally Posted by SmokeyWren

Two ways to do it.

One way is to simply remove both duals, then install the outside shiny wheel and leave the inside ugly wheel in the barn. Your stock tires have 3,970 pounds weight capacity each when mounted on a single wheel (not duals). So your rear GAWR would be limited to 7,940 pounds with one dual removed on each side and the rear tires pumped up to max (110 PSI?). That would result in a max GVWR of about 14,000 pounds, which is not much less than you have on a stock F-450 pickup.

Don't mess with the rear axle or the hubs, but you may want to replace the lug bolts in the rear hubs with the shorter lug bolts for SRW wheels.

But to do it right, so your pickup looks like an SRW pickup and not a dually with some tires removed, you need 4 new wheels with a 10-on-225mm hole pattern. Your stock wheels are 19.5"x6", but the new wheels could be 20"x8". Then you could mount the same tires the SRWs run, or LT265/75R20. With those tires, your 4.30 rear axle ratio would be an effective 4.02. Your speedo, odometer, and tripmeter would have a 6.5 percent error until you had the speedo calibrated for the taller SRW tires.

No need to change the rear axle or hubs. However, with 10-on-225mm hole pattern, you would probably have a real problem trying to find SRW wheels to fit. And the F-450 brake components are at least 1" more diameter than SRW brakes, so any SRW hub probably wouldn't work on an F-450.

If you want new wheels, then the answer is probably a custom wheel maker that can make you anything you can dream up. One source is: Stockton Wheel Service - Custom Wheels

One option might be to have Stockton widen your stock wheels from 6" to 8". Then instead of your 225/70R19.5 tires, you could run "super single" LT265/70R19.5. That would give you a rear axle ratio equivalent to 3.90, and get you back to your stock GVWR of 14,500. The Drive-axle tires available in that size include Michelin XDE2+, and the all-position tires available in that size include Michelin XZE2+:
Michelin Americas Truck Tires

But warning: those super single Michelins are not cheap.

[ACESPACK]

Originally Posted by dgeesaman

Can you not simply get some letters from DOT and CHP and carry them with you? How can you be receiving violations (that stick) if they are not correct?

David

Its not just being able to argue the point between DOT and the CHP. The real issue is; the most common run I make has 3 scales, If I have to go through the hassle each time, I would never get to where I'm going with any kind of expectation of when I will arrive. Makes if tough to make a meeting.

[jasonmt]

Even a SRW 350 is going to have over a 10k GVWR unless you opt for the 10k GVWR option. As well a stock F-450 wheel has a maximum weight capacity of 3500#'s regardless of what tyres are mounted on the wheels.

Why not just insure and register the truck and trailer combination in a jurisdiction outside of California that allows the combination that you have with no special licensing and be done with it?

[NEVERSWEAT7]

I have not heard of this before and I pulled with the 350 at 9900LBS. Missed it by...that much! I guess I just didn't talk to guys with a 450 before my future purchase.

So after re-reading this thread, I can opt not to stop at the risk of pissing CHP off to the point of a ticket/fine? How tightly are they enforcing this in California? Got a few chippy buddies I will very soon be in touch with. Looks like I am going to get the straight scoop whether I like it or not. With that being said, ignorance of the law will most likely not save you (me) and possibly anger the chippy even more? And for that anger a best guess is considered for not being completely cognizant of every little footnote in the handbook? Or at least the ones that concern me and a 450 pick-up.

Would this be a fair assumption?

Then the answer might end up being plan ahead of time to stop at the scales. New world order for me. I will report back.

[mattebury]

I found this at the California Department of Transportation:

California Vehicle Code Section 260 defines "commercial vehicle" (bolding and underlining added):

260. (a) A "commercial vehicle" is a motor vehicle of a type required to be registered under this code used or maintained for the transportation of persons for hire, compensation, or profit or designed, used, or maintained primarily for the transportation of property.
(b) Passenger vehicles which are not used for the transportation of persons for hire, compensation, or profit and housecars are not commercial vehicles. ...
(c) Any vanpool vehicle is not a commercial vehicle.
(d) ...

CalTrans

[NEVERSWEAT7]

Originally Posted by mattebury

I found this at the California Department of Transportation:

California Vehicle Code Section 260 defines "commercial vehicle" (bolding and underlining added):

260. (a) A "commercial vehicle" is a motor vehicle of a type required to be registered under this code used or maintained for the transportation of persons for hire, compensation, or profit or designed, used, or maintained primarily for the transportation of property.

(b) Passenger vehicles which are not used for the transportation of persons for hire, compensation, or profit and housecars are not commercial vehicles. ...

(c) Any vanpool vehicle is not a commercial vehicle.

(d) ...

CalTrans

Well Mattebury,
as I read this it all sounds good as I do not plan on hiring out my truck for service. What I focused on in that definition is the transportation of property. My fiver is my property. It seems like a gray area.. whos property are they referring to? Somebody elses that would hire me to haul/pull it? I am guessing is being compensated is the operative word. Anybody want to shoot holes in my.... weak theory? I am listening

[mattebury]

I think that with a fiver, you're probably talking recreational vehicle which is not a commercial vehicle. But, If you are hauling around your backhoe from job to job, then you are hauling property.

As the site says, got a question, give'em a call.

[jasonmt]

Originally Posted by mattebury

I found this at the California Department of Transportation:

California Vehicle Code Section 260 defines "commercial vehicle" (bolding and underlining added):

260. (a) A "commercial vehicle" is a motor vehicle of a type required to be registered under this code used or maintained for the transportation of persons for hire, compensation, or profit or designed, used, or maintained primarily for the transportation of property.
(b) Passenger vehicles which are not used for the transportation of persons for hire, compensation, or profit and housecars are not commercial vehicles. ...
(c) Any vanpool vehicle is not a commercial vehicle.
(d) ...

CalTrans

The problem is that California deems all "pickup trucks" as commercial motor vehicles and a F-450 factory pickup will not even meet California's definition as a "pickup truck" due to both its unladed and gross vehicle weights. They have you by the balls at the word designed in the definitions:

Motor Truck (VC §410)—A motor truck or motortruck is a motor vehicle designed, used, or maintained primarily for the transportation of property.

Commercial Vehicle (VC §260)—A commercial vehicle is a vehicle required to be registered which is used or maintained for the transportation of persons for hire, compensation, or profit or designed, used, or maintained primarily for the transportation of property. The following vehicles may be registered as passenger or commercial:
•Multipurpose vehicles. Refer to Section 9.050.
•Passenger-type vehicles transporting persons for hire.
•Pickup trucks with a camper permanently attached. Refer to Section 9.065.
•Station wagons. Refer to Section 9.055.

Pickup Truck (VC §471)—A pickup truck is a motor truck with a manufacturer’s gross vehicle weight rating of less than 11,500 pounds, an unladen weight of less than 8,001 pounds, and which is equipped with an open box-type bed less than nine (9) feet in length. Pickup truck does not include a motor vehicle, otherwise meeting the above definition, that is equipped with a bed-mounted storage compartment commonly called a utility body.

The California Code of Regulations (Title 13) §150.04 further defines pickup trucks:
(a) Pursuant to Section 471 of the Vehicle Code, any motor vehicle, except a motorcycle, motorized bicycle, or motorized quadricycle, with an open box type bed not exceeding nine feet in length is by definition a pickup. Examples of this type of motor vehicle include the Ford Explorer Sport Trac, Nissan Frontier, and other similarly designed vehicles.
(b) Pursuant to Section 471 of the Vehicle Code, any motor vehicle, except a motorcycle, motorized bicycle, or motorized quadricycle, that may be configured or reconfigured to provide an open box type bed not exceeding nine feet in length is by definition a pickup. Examples of this type of motor vehicle include the Chevrolet Avalanche and similarly designed vehicles.
Pickup Exclusions—The following trucks are not pickups:
•Trucks with an open box-type bed that weigh more than 8,001 pounds unladen or exceed the manufacturer’s GVWR of 11,500 pounds. (“Varied” body type)
•Trucks equipped with a bed-mounted storage compartment unit commonly called a utility body. (“Utility” body type)
•Trucks with a body type other than an open box bed (stake, flatbed, dump, etc.).
4-Door Pickup Trucks—These vehicles have a body constructed with an open box-type bed which requires them to be registered as pickups (commercial vehicles). Examples of such vehicles include, but are not limited to, Ford Explorer Sport Trac, Nissan Frontier, Chevrolet Avalanche, and Lincoln Blackwood.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/reg_hdbk_pdf/ch09.pdf

[longhaultransport]

I am considering this also, and this is the cheapest way I have found to do it, so far.

Firematic 19.5" Super Single rear wheels provide better access than traditional dual tires, with fewer problems due to wedged branches and stones. These rims are third party certified by Standard Testing Labs, and are standard equipment on the B.R.A.T. Brush Rapid Attack Truck. Price includes rim only

[guardrail22]

looks to me like making this change would get you a SRW F450 thats still labelled for 14500 GVWR so you haven't done anything other than endanger yourself.

Bottom line is you are haiuling property for commercial purposes. FWIW, a contracor in any state is probably in the same boat

[NEVERSWEAT7]

Originally Posted by guardrail22

looks to me like making this change would get you a SRW F450 thats still labelled for 14500 GVWR so you haven't done anything other than endanger yourself.

Bottom line is you are haiuling property for commercial purposes. FWIW, a contracor in any state is probably in the same boat

That is what my understanding is also. My fifthwheel in my recreational toy.. not a piece of property I make money with or on. And I am not hauling anybody elses either. I will still ask my bud the chippy for a little further confirm. Law and order, thats us every time sherriff