2008- 2010 General QuestionsGeneral questions related to 2008-Up Super Duty trucks. If it doesn't fit the other categories, post it here. Gas engine discussion that pertains to all models is allowed. Specific gas engine questions should use the Gas Engines forum.
I pull a triple axle TAG trailer w/GVWR of 15K. Currently, I run just under 10K, but will probably be north of 12K this summer. I currently pull with a 7.3 PSD cargo van, but its getting a little loud in there Its also right on the edge of GAWR and max trailer weight as is, never mind adding a ton. So... I'm considering a new truck.
Pricing things out online, I can get roughly similarly equipped F350 and F450 for similar money - within 1-2K of each other. Assuming that is the case, why would I choose one over the other? I finally found a dealer with a salesperson (their commercial truck guy) who knew what an axle ratio was, and after explaining my situation, he thought a 350 w/4.10's would be the way to go. Plenty of power to reliably pull the trailer right up to 15K, and better fuel economy both with and without the trailer (since the 450's come with either 4.30 or 4.88).
What other differences are there between the 350 / 450 that would be important for a vehicle that pulls a good sized trailer 50-75% of its operating life?
One thing to consider that the Dealers seem to forget to mention is with the F-450 and that trailer your Gross Combined Weight Rating will be 31k lbs. Do you have or plan to acquire a Commercial License to be compliant?
On the F-450 the size of the breaks and the stopping power. These trucks can pull just about anything. Stopping is another matter. Additionally you get a "G" rated tire that should last longer. Finally, you get a higher towing capacity. There are probably more but these three items sold me. If you order a new job 3 F-450 you can only get the 4.30 rear end.
Shawn
__________________ 2008 F-450 JOB-1, 4 X 4 with 4.30's, auto with manual transfer case with factory cup holders. All options except sunroof and nav. Line X with Extra. 24K Draw-Tite Signature Series Fifth Wheel Hitch. 65 Gallon KSH Marine fuel/tool combo in bed. Viair 480C compressor with 8 gallon tank. Hadley Air Horns hooked up to Auto Mate alarm. Chime/Light Killer Mod. Polished Job-1 exhaust tips. Transmission upgraded to JOB-2 filter, pan, and lines. External filter eliminated. PICTURES
One thing to consider that the Dealers seem to forget to mention is with the F-450 and that trailer your Gross Combined Weight Rating will be 31k lbs. Do you have or plan to acquire a Commercial License to be compliant?
Not correct. GCWR doesn't change no matter what. GCWR is a static value Ford (and all mfr's) assign to vehicles. I'm looking at the hard copy '2008 RV & Trailer Towing Guide' and GCWR ratings break down like this (all 6.4, for conventional towing, NOT 5th wheel, although this has no impact on GCWR):
F350 DRW CC w/4.10's == 23,500 lbs
F350 DRW CC w/4.30LS == 26,000 lbs
F450 DRW CC w/4.30LS == 29,000 lbs
The F350 with either 4.10 or 4.30 is rated to pull 15K in both 4x2 and 4x4 for TAG trailers. The F450 with 4.30's or 4.88's are rated to 16K (again for TAG trailers, not 5er).
As far as needing a CDL, there is a lot of misinformation and misinterpretation out there. As my towing is recreational (not for profit), and the truck and trailer will ACTUALLY weigh less than 26K, I don't need a CDL.
Basically, if you ACTUALLY weigh under 26K lbs between the truck and trailer (not GCWR/GVWR/GAWR etc), and are NOT engaged in commerce, no CDL is required. See Commercial Driver's License Program (CDL/CDLIS) - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration. Specifically, this quote, 'Drivers need CDLs if they are in interstate, intrastate, or foreign commerce and drive a vehicle that meets one of the following definitions of a CMV..' It goes on to describe Class A, B, and C commercial motor vehicles.
If however, you are engaging in business of ANY kind, you likely WOULD need a CDL. Since I tow my trailer for fun and not profit, and I know I'll be under 26K lbs all the time, I'm not concerned. A number of my racing friends have been stopped and let go over this issue, including a buddy with a 40' gooseneck who was stopped twice on one trip, and both times let go with nothing - no warning / ticket / etc.
OK - all that said... Any other reasons to choose a 350 over a 450?
On the F-450 the size of the breaks and the stopping power. These trucks can pull just about anything. Stopping is another matter. Additionally you get a "G" rated tire that should last longer. Finally, you get a higher towing capacity. There are probably more but these three items sold me. If you order a new job 3 F-450 you can only get the 4.30 rear end.
Shawn
Hmm. What is the size difference on the brakes? The G rated tires aren't a big deal to me as 6x E rated tires are more than capable of handling my expected loads, and if not, I can replace them with G's. Of course, I'm assuming the wheels are the same size...Is that accurate?
Are you sure about the job 3 450's only being available with 4.30's? You can still configure them with 4.88's online...
Brakes and rear end. Both quite a bit bigger on a 450. However with the larger 19.5 tires you don't have the tread choices that you would on a 350. I have to agree with the dealer on this one. If you don't need a 450 don't get one, especially if you don't want the lower gears.
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2008 F450 4wd crew, forest green over pueblo gold, 4.30 rear, several options, Lord help me keep my truck stock.
Since I tow my trailer for fun and not profit, and I know I'll be under 26K lbs all the time, I'm not concerned. A number of my racing friends have been stopped and let go over this issue, including a buddy with a 40' gooseneck who was stopped twice on one trip, and both times let go with nothing - no warning / ticket / etc.
OK - all that said... Any other reasons to choose a 350 over a 450?
ahm
I was not speaking of Ford's suggested capacities in referring to weight class.
As stated in your link to FMCSA, these are minimum national standards, which States must meet when licensing CMV drivers. Most all states go far beyond these federal minimums. This results in a lot of misinformation and misinterpretation out there.
For instance, in Texas ( from the CDL handbook):
Engaged in commerce or not, it does not matter. Even for personal use,
You must have a CDL to operate:
2. A trailer with a GVWR of more than 10,000 pounds if the gross combination weight rating is more than 26,000 pounds.
Your trailer’s GVWR as registered exceeds 10k lbs, added to the GVWR as registered of 16k lbs for the F-450 and that sum exceeds 26K lbs, regardless of actual scale weight.
Who is exempt from a CDL? (Certification form CDL-2 Required)
Persons operating the following vehicles are exempt from a
Commercial Driver License:
4. A recreational vehicle that is driven for personal use.
I interpret this exemption as stated, an RV that is driven, no mention of pulling. Even qualifying for the exemption still requires a Certification form CDL-2.
Law Enforcement is cracking down on this with the popularity of the F-450 pickup. All they have to do is see an F-450 hooked to an 8-lug tandem axle (or 6-lug triple) trailer loaded or empty and without checking registration, they know the Actual combined rating exceeds 26K.
As you mentioned, ‘a number of your friends have been stopped’. If you don’t mind being pulled over on a regular basis and relying on that particular officer‘s judgment of a violation or not then you have nothing to worry about but, it’s worth your time to check CDL rules for transporting in your state, or wherever your travels lead you. Stick with the F-350 and your guaranteed no hassles.
I was not speaking of Ford's suggested capacities in referring to weight class.
As stated in your link to FMCSA, these are minimum national standards, which States must meet when licensing CMV drivers. Most all states go far beyond these federal minimums. This results in a lot of misinformation and misinterpretation out there.
For instance, in Texas ( from the CDL handbook):
Engaged in commerce or not, it does not matter. Even for personal use,
You must have a CDL to operate:
2. A trailer with a GVWR of more than 10,000 pounds if the gross combination weight rating is more than 26,000 pounds.
Your trailer’s GVWR as registered exceeds 10k lbs, added to the GVWR as registered of 16k lbs for the F-450 and that sum exceeds 26K lbs, regardless of actual scale weight.
Who is exempt from a CDL? (Certification form CDL-2 Required)
Persons operating the following vehicles are exempt from a
Commercial Driver License:
4. A recreational vehicle that is driven for personal use.
I interpret this exemption as stated, an RV that is driven, no mention of pulling. Even qualifying for the exemption still requires a Certification form CDL-2.
Law Enforcement is cracking down on this with the popularity of the F-450 pickup. All they have to do is see an F-450 hooked to an 8-lug tandem axle (or 6-lug triple) trailer loaded or empty and without checking registration, they know the Actual combined rating exceeds 26K.
As you mentioned, ‘a number of your friends have been stopped’. If you don’t mind being pulled over on a regular basis and relying on that particular officer‘s judgment of a violation or not then you have nothing to worry about but, it’s worth your time to check CDL rules for transporting in your state, or wherever your travels lead you. Stick with the F-350 and your guaranteed no hassles.
Since my trailer has a toilet/shower/sink, that meets the established bar for it being an RV, and therefore exempt from just about every state's description of a CMV.
That being said, in the larger context of generically pulling a trailer, I think you're absolutely right. Reading a few state's definitions of CMV, they seem mostly consistent with your Texas quote with respect to the GCWR of the truck over 26K AND the trailer's GVWR being >10K.
So...Methinks you're right - the F-450 might significantly complicate life for folks who have trailers with GVWR >10K and no water facilities.
This might very well be the nail in the coffin for me and 450. Tempting as it is since its roughly the same price, this is a complication I don't need... Thanks for the info!
One other thing to consider is insurance. Most insurance companies break at the 350, and the 450 becomes a "commercial" vehicle for their policies. There are some recreational clubs that offer insurance rates though.
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Feb 03 6.0 Silver F-250 SD SC XLT long box, 6-spd 3.73ls, Fx4, Stock, Spray-in liner, Contico box.HARPOONED.
One other thing to consider is insurance. Most insurance companies break at the 350, and the 450 becomes a "commercial" vehicle for their policies. There are some recreational clubs that offer insurance rates though.
Another good point... I got hassled for my E350 by Progressive initially. In their defense, it is a cargo van with no seats etc, so I can understand why someone would think it was for commercial use. I imagine the 450 would be an even harder sell.
All this being said, I just drove a Sierra 3500 diesel dually and was quite impressed. Interior is much more 'normal' than the Ford. I'm not a big fan of the Chevy's exterior looks, but in the grand scheme of things, that's not a big issue for me. Given the fragility of the Ford trans, the Allison is a heck of a counterpoint. Don't know much about 'em, but seemed like a nice truck. Decisions, decisions...
I had no problem insuring my F-450 with Farmer's. In fact, the rate didn't change at all between the '04 F-350 I traded and the new '08. The main reason there was no problem insuring the F-450 is that it is a pickup and not a flatbed. If I had bought an F-450 chassis cab and had a hauler bed installed it might have made a difference.
Given the fragility of the Ford trans, the Allison is a heck of a counterpoint. Don't know much about 'em, but seemed like a nice truck. Decisions, decisions...
ahm
I didn't know these transmissions had the reputation of being 'fragile'. My two sure haven't been.
__________________
2008 F450 4wd crew, forest green over pueblo gold, 4.30 rear, several options, Lord help me keep my truck stock.
I have to agree with Jessee on the Insurance. If you are with a reputable company and you have no issues there is no problem with insuring a 450. I gave my agent the VIN and date of delivery and I had full coverage.
__________________
2008 F-450 Lariat loaded on order 7/3/07 delivered 9/13/2007 Pueblo Gold and all the goodies except Nav radio and moonroof and Fisher 8'6" X-blade
2005
F-350 Lariat LOADED CC SRW LB 6.0 SOLD
Med. Wedgewood Blue
All Options except moon roof
8'6" Fisher X-blade SS
2003 PSD 6.0 Lariat CC SB SOLD
All options but the moon roof
I didn't know these transmissions had the reputation of being 'fragile'. My two sure haven't been.
perhaps the newer ones are better, but the older ones (4R100?) like in my van are notoriously short lived (especially behind the diesel, and doubly so if towing). its not unusual to lose one before 100K miles.
Aside from the CDL issue. The 450 will in the long run cost more to operate.
Larger tires, more $$ to replace. Same for the brakes. Mileage really goes to hell, unless you add an aftermarket overdrive...
This is an RV, not pulling for profit. I would keep my costs down.
GM seats are uncomfortable to my back. Then I will not be told what I have to get, like GM does, with the ON Star & daylight, always on head lights.
Ford & Dodge have the most durable drive systems.
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03 F350 CC LWB, 3.73's, 6 Speed, Stock 7.3,
custom rear bumper w/ hitch, Reese 5th wheel, a work truck!
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Its also right on the edge of GAWR and max trailer weight as is, never mind adding a ton. So... I'm considering a new truck.
2007 Chev Duramax LBZ/6-spd Allison 3500 LT3 DRW CCLB, Sulastics, Putnam XDR 15K, B&W 30K-Turnover GN, Ride-Rite Air, Roll-Top Cover
2006 Chev 6.0L/4L80e 3500WT DRW Ex-Cab 9'Flat-GN
350 vs 450 - why buy one vs the other?
2008 F-450 JOB-1, 4 X 4 with 4.30's, auto with manual transfer case with factory cup holders. All options except sunroof and nav. Line X with Extra. 24K Draw-Tite Signature Series Fifth Wheel Hitch. 65 Gallon KSH Marine fuel/tool combo in bed. Viair 480C compressor with 8 gallon tank. Hadley Air Horns hooked up to Auto Mate alarm. Chime/Light Killer Mod. Polished Job-1 exhaust tips. Transmission upgraded to JOB-2 filter, pan, and lines. External filter eliminated.
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