Questions about x-plan and buying new truck

[Rushing]

So I'm not sure if this is in the right section but if it isn't if someone could move it to the right place that would be excellent.

So I have a few questions and things I just want cleared up. From my understanding the x-plan is basically the best deal you can get? I understand it is a couple hundred dollars under invoice yes? Is it easier to just use an x-plan pin or is it possible now a days to get cheaper (invoice plus rebates and such)?

I went to a ford dealership and was walking the lot and a salesman came out and asked if I needed help and I told him I was looking for a f-350 crew cab, long box, 4x4, diesel, lariat. And I asked him what the invoice on a truck like that would be, and the guy just started being a jerk and saying "We can't sell a truck for invoice or we don't make any money" and he was just being rude. All I wanted to know was what the invoice on a truck like that was, not that I was demanding it. So my question is (cause I read somewhere on the forums that they have to show you invoice?) do they have to show invoice price? Or are they not allowed to show it? Or was this guy just being a jerk?

Are there any fees that a dealer might charge in which they aren't supposed to charge? I was reading that some salesmen will say you have to pay some extra fees to get more commission so what can and can't they charge you for when using an x-plan pin?

I know there's a fella on here by the name of "Bobby Williams", (this qeustion is directed at him if he happens to read it) would it be cheaper to go through him and buy a ford? Or just go to a locale dealer and try and work something out IF I can't get an x-plan pin? (I'm located in alberta but I wouldn't have an issue with driving to the states to pick it up)

[smotrs]

Never talk to a sales man, always ask for the fleet manager. Sales men can't negotiate based on invoice. They are go-betweens from you to the sales manager. A fleet manager though, doesn't typically have the same restrictions as the sales manager because typically the fleet manager sells based on bulk whereas a sales manager deals with single vehicle sales. Fleet managers also handle financing, so you don't have to be passed on to a finance manager either.

Other then my truck, all my purchases have been through fleet managers and all have been under invoice before rebates.

My truck was bought through the general manager (friend of mine) at a VERY reduced price, $49.5k OTD with everything you see in my sig (minus the Line-x, had that done myself but discounted as the dealer made the appt.). Oh, and 0% for 60 months.

Take a look at carbuyingtips.com for all the tips and tricks to buying a new vehicle. I re-read that site every time I get ready to buy a vehicle.

[SmokeyWren]

Originally Posted by Rushing

(I'm located in alberta but I wouldn't have an issue with driving to the states to pick it up)

I know next to nothing about buying a new vehicle in the USA and importing it into Canada, but I'll bet it's not cheap. Check out all the details and costs of doing that before you decide.

Canadian Ford rules are different than ours. I don't keep up with those differences, but you should find out and compare them.

The X-Plan rules for US dealers are spelled out in two long sticky posts at the top of this forum. But I'll bet the rules for Canadian dealers are different.

From my understanding the x-plan is basically the best deal you can get? I understand it is a couple hundred dollars under invoice yes? Is it easier to just use an x-plan pin or is it possible now a days to get cheaper (invoice plus rebates and such)?

For most folks, X-Plan is a good deal. Yes, in the USA it's a coupla hunded bucks less than invoice, and you get all nationally-advertised rebates and incentives, and dealers are limited on how much "dealer pack" they can add to your contract. (But the rules for Canadian dealers may be different.)

So my question is (cause I read somewhere on the forums that they have to show you invoice?) do they have to show invoice price?

When you arrive at a dealership, don't say boo to anyone except to inquire where is the office of the fleet manager. When you find him, ask him if he will sell you a new (describe truck) on X-Plan. If he says yes, then your negotiating is done.

Yes, he has to show all X-Plan customers the invoice for your selected vehicle if it's in stock. On the invoice is the X-Plan price as well as the invoice price and other plan prices. But until you prove you are an X-Plan customer, then they don't have to show you anything except the window sticker. So get your X-Plan PIN before you visit the dealer.

Are there any fees that a dealer might charge in which they aren't supposed to charge? I was reading that some salesmen will say you have to pay some extra fees to get more commission so what can and can't they charge you for when using an x-plan pin?

Read the rules in those sticky posts at the top of this forums index. Those rules changed recently, but now I think they say the dealer can charge you up to so much for "documentation fee", where the old rules didn't allow documentation fee.

But it sounds like you are describing ADP, or "additional dealer profit" some dealers charge (and get away with, especially on "foreign" cars). And no, the dealer cannot add ADP to your X-Plan contract. But he can add doc fee, so know how much is the max doc fee the X-Plan allows.

I know there's a fella on here by the name of "Bobby Williams", (this qeustion is directed at him if he happens to read it) would it be cheaper to go through him and buy a ford?

Maybe. Bobby has a reputation of beating almost any deal you can find. After you get smart about customs and import fees, if it makes sense to buy a new truck in California and drive it back to Canada, then Bobby may be your man. You can contact him at:
Sunrise Ford Fleet, Large Commercial Ford Truck Dealership

Or just go to a locale dealer and try and work something out IF I can't get an x-plan pin?

You shouldn't have any problem getting an X-Plan PIN (or whatever it's called in Canada). There are numerous Ford assembly plants in Canada, and any Ford employee that works at one of those plants can give you a PIN. You may need to do some web surfing to find one, or maybe put a want ad in the classified ad section right here on TheDieselStop.

But if you cannot obtain an X-Plan PIN, then try to buy the truck for invoice price. If you deal only with the fleet manager, then he'll probably get out the invoice and show you what a terriric deal you are getting.

Market conditions vary day by day. If a dealer has a lot full trucks like you want, and he's had them for several months (or even years for 2008 models), then he's a lot more likely to give you a good price without too much haggling.

(Any fleet manager that will not show me the invoice is not going to get my business, whether or not I have an X-Plan PIN.)

[Rushing]

If a salesman sells a truck for invoice, do they still make any money? Or are they actually loosing money like they claim?

[SmokeyWren]

It depends on who you mean by "they". The salesmen are usually paid a percentage of gross over invoice. So if they sell at invoice, the salesman doesn't get paid any extra for the sale (although he still makes minimum wage for the time he spends on duty.)

But the dealer receives two invoices, one with holdback and one without holdback. Almost always when they discuss invoice price, they are talking about the invoice with holdback. Ford "holds back" a percentage of the total cost of the vehicle to cover several different future expenses. The big future cost is floor plan (interest). The holdback is enough to cover a few months of floorplan costs for that vehicle, plus a bit more to cover warranty chargebacks, parts purchases from Ford, and such.

(A warranty chargeback is when a dealer tries to get Ford to pay for a fix that is not covered by warranty. When Ford determines the Dealer was playing fast and loose with the rules, they "charge back" the dealer for the cost of the denied warranty claim and it comes out of the hold back funds.)

So the dealer pays Ford the invoice cost including holdback up front, but periodically Ford and the dealer "settle up" the hold back account. If there's any money left in the holdback account, Ford writes the dealer a check for that amount. But often that account is "in the red" so the dealer writes Ford a check.

The holdback account is a cause for vast misunderstanding between customer and dealer. Customers who have heard about something called dealer holdback assume the dealer gets all of it, and therefore makes lots of money even if he sells the vehicle at invoice or below. Dealership management knows that the holdback account is certainly not "profit", but pays some of the expenses of the dealership.

When so-called advisers tell you to get into the dealer's hold-back funds, they often don't have a clue as to whether there's any money in the holdback account. Usually the dealer receives very little back from the holdback account, but a dealer that manages his inventory well and doesn't try to cheat on warranty claims can get some back. It's an accounting nightmare, so unless you have at least a bachelors in accounting, don't try to figure it all out. Just understand that invoice price is an excellent price, and if you can buy the vehicle at invoice (minus rebates) then you done good.

But there are lots of stories about that truck that only a mother could love sitting on the lot, and it's been sitting there for months and months. And the dealer was glad to let you negotiate him down to a bunch of dollers below invoice. Yes that happens. But that unsold truck is never the one I want, so I never get that super-good deal.

[Need4racin]

Smokey, Great reply!

[BWilliams]

Originally Posted by SmokeyWren

It depends on who you mean by "they". The salesmen are usually paid a percentage of gross over invoice. So if they sell at invoice, the salesman doesn't get paid any extra for the sale (although he still makes minimum wage for the time he spends on duty.)

But the dealer receives two invoices, one with holdback and one without holdback. Almost always when they discuss invoice price, they are talking about the invoice with holdback. Ford "holds back" a percentage of the total cost of the vehicle to cover several different future expenses. The big future cost is floor plan (interest). The holdback is enough to cover a few months of floorplan costs for that vehicle, plus a bit more to cover warranty chargebacks, parts purchases from Ford, and such.

(A warranty chargeback is when a dealer tries to get Ford to pay for a fix that is not covered by warranty. When Ford determines the Dealer was playing fast and loose with the rules, they "charge back" the dealer for the cost of the denied warranty claim and it comes out of the hold back funds.)

So the dealer pays Ford the invoice cost including holdback up front, but periodically Ford and the dealer "settle up" the hold back account. If there's any money left in the holdback account, Ford writes the dealer a check for that amount. But often that account is "in the red" so the dealer writes Ford a check.

The holdback account is a cause for vast misunderstanding between customer and dealer. Customers who have heard about something called dealer holdback assume the dealer gets all of it, and therefore makes lots of money even if he sells the vehicle at invoice or below. Dealership management knows that the holdback account is certainly not "profit", but pays some of the expenses of the dealership.

When so-called advisers tell you to get into the dealer's hold-back funds, they often don't have a clue as to whether there's any money in the holdback account. Usually the dealer receives very little back from the holdback account, but a dealer that manages his inventory well and doesn't try to cheat on warranty claims can get some back. It's an accounting nightmare, so unless you have at least a bachelors in accounting, don't try to figure it all out. Just understand that invoice price is an excellent price, and if you can buy the vehicle at invoice (minus rebates) then you done good.

But there are lots of stories about that truck that only a mother could love sitting on the lot, and it's been sitting there for months and months. And the dealer was glad to let you negotiate him down to a bunch of dollers below invoice. Yes that happens. But that unsold truck is never the one I want, so I never get that super-good deal.

GREAT post there Smokey, you hit the nail right on the head! I think that post needs to be marked as one of your top 10

[BWilliams]

Originally Posted by SmokeyWren

Maybe. Bobby has a reputation of beating almost any deal you can find. After you get smart about customs and import fees, if it makes sense to buy a new truck in California and drive it back to Canada, then Bobby may be your man. You can contact him at:
Sunrise Ford Fleet, Large Commercial Ford Truck Dealership

Thanks, but I CAN NOT handle a vehicle sale that is going to be exported to Canada. The US Dealers got a nice little memo a few months back reminding them of their export clause in the dealer agreements. Big big touble if caught allowing a vehicle to be exported to Canada.