Bad Gas!! - Diesel Forum

Pappy19 · 02-28-2009, 05:35 PM

There was a great article in the latest Outdoor Life regarding this new ethanol induced gasoline. It seems that after a few weeks, especially in the colder weather, the ethanol seperates from the gasoline, and then starts to gunk up. The question in the magazine was for marine engines, but holds true on any gasoline engine. Point is to use Stabil or similar product in all gasoline tanks or you may experience somr unpleasant results.
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akrewat · 03-01-2009, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pappy19

There was a great article in the latest Outdoor Life regarding this new ethanol induced gasoline. It seems that after a few weeks, especially in the colder weather, the ethanol seperates from the gasoline, and then starts to gunk up. The question in the magazine was for marine engines, but holds true on any gasoline engine. Point is to use Stabil or similar product in all gasoline tanks or you may experience somr unpleasant results.
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Pappy, I deal with a bunch of people in the marine industry, both wholesalers, and mechanics.

Ethanol doesn't separate, but it WILL dissolve water up to a point. When the water content suddenly gets too high, it falls out of solution, and that's what you see laying in the bottom of the tank.

Point is, personally, I think there was water in the tank to begin with, and there's condensation building up to the point where it suddenly becomes a problem.

Also, ethanol will loosen any dirt built up over the years, and if you suddenly go to a gasoline with ethanol in it, that crud will start coming loose and do all sorts of bad things.

Ethanol itself is a clear liquid - it has a freezing point of -114C (-173.2F), and it doesn't "gel" like gasoline or diesel fuel, it just turns solid.

So, if there's "gunk" in the tank, or a gel-like substance, it's more than likely something else going on.

And, for the record, here on Long Island, we've had ethanol in the gasoline for years. There have been cases where marine mechanics have found all sorts of crud and other things in the bottom of the tanks, carb bowls, filters, water-separators, etc. There was just no clear correlation between that happening and ethanol being introduced.

I do, however, wonder, if because of environmental regulations, that "stabilizer" is not the same thing as it used to be.

JimJoe · 03-01-2009, 02:07 PM

As I made my PhD in chemistry I should know a tiny bit about. So you might know that Ethanol holds roughly 4 % water. Below that level it will take up water from the air. This is called azeotrope. So this mixture tends to reach this azeotropic composition. If air is accessible within the engine or the tank I do not know. It would be interesting to know if the Ethanol used as fues is - expensive - pure EtOh or the cheaper azeotrope.

Jim

Pappy19 · 03-02-2009, 10:00 PM

This is good stuff and I appreciate all of the info. As you all can figure, I am a "novice" IN THE GASSER world, so all responses are grateful. Even the "oil heads" can gain some info on this subject as we all have some kind of gas rigs.

akrewat · 03-03-2009, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimJoe

As I made my PhD in chemistry I should know a tiny bit about. So you might know that Ethanol holds roughly 4 % water. Below that level it will take up water from the air. This is called azeotrope. So this mixture tends to reach this azeotropic composition. If air is accessible within the engine or the tank I do not know. It would be interesting to know if the Ethanol used as fues is - expensive - pure EtOh or the cheaper azeotrope.

Somehow, I think it's the cheap stuff

One thing to think about is the evaporative emissions controls, in terms of what constitutes "air" inside the gas tank. Mostly gas vapors, would it still hold as much moisture?

short_stuff · 03-10-2009, 04:03 PM

Here's a similar article from the Houston Chronicle from June 5, 2008. It sure opened my eyes about E-10 fuel. I still carry the article around for my boating neighbors. Chron.com | Chemistry not quite right

just my .02 cents worth

short_stuff

akrewat · 03-11-2009, 01:03 PM

After reading that, I'm starting to wonder - if my brother-in-law's boat has a clogged vent for the gas tank, or it's not vented at all somehow.

They did make the point that automotive systems wouldn't suffer from moisture so much because it's a closed system.

OT · 03-19-2009, 10:39 PM

Pappy...maybe n/a..so..FWIW..I've had no problems with "ethanol additive" in my buick V6 gas or my old F250 gasser. Been getting it here ever since Calif. banned (for good reason) "MTBE" sometime ago. However..get 1+ mpg LESS. Also..ethanol cost more to make than mtbe, which caused price per gal. to go up.

btw..I've dont use any extra additives in gas.

Pappy19 · 03-20-2009, 09:56 AM

Back a number of years ago we were working in Laramie, Wyoming and the local gas stations had ethanol premium gas for 6 cents less than regular unleaded. Now it seems that all gasolines are mixing ethanol in them and I don't see any problems, however, I wonder about leaving the new gasolines in tanks for an extended period of time. Case in point, I have a 1996 Bronco that I only drive 1-2k a year, if that, and so it sits around most of the time. I just wonder how long it will take before I start having fuel problems.

OT · 03-20-2009, 01:20 PM

Pappy...maybe someone can explain the "chemistry" part as to why..but gas WILL eventually degrade to a point where engine want run on it. One clue gas is bad (often overlooked) engine hard starting or does start, but dosent idle right..keeps dying under load. Could come from a 5gal. can thats been sitting around for awhile. Dont ask me how I know.

Apparently you've been lucky with bronco & no problems. Also if e. has carb.(its possible) long periods of non use can cause remaining gas inside to dry..forming gummy residue which gums up parts. Maybe some kinda additive would help?

akrewat · 03-20-2009, 01:32 PM

There's been a discussion on another web site, were we were talking about the new Shell "nitrogen enriched gas" and someone brought up stabilizers and such.

I did a little research and found stabilizers are mostly "mineral oil" which is exactly what Marvel Mystery Oil is.

Doesn't help water absorption, but does help to keep the gas from gumming stuff up.

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One thing to think about - "dry gas" is usually methanol which helps to dissolve water in the tank. So does ethanol. If you put a can of dry gas in your tank, how much, percentage-wise, is that dry gas really mixing with the gas in the tank?

Ethanol at 10% would hold a lot more water than one of those little bottles of "dry gas" wouldn't it?

What I'm trying to say is, if you use dry gas at what amounts to probably 1-5% of the entire tank of gas, and it's for long-term storage, 10% ethanol gas would be even BETTER. Wouldn't it?

In other words, 10% ethanol might be BETTER for long-term storage of vehicles than straight gasoline.

Pappy19 · 03-21-2009, 11:04 AM

I've got 32+K on my '08 and it was ready for an oil change. I went to my local Lincoln dealer (I like him better than my Ford dealer) and after the oil change, we decided to do the fuel filter change and to dump and replace the transfer case fluid. The TorqueShift tranny fluid is supposed to last 100k before changing. Not sure I'll go that long. All toll for the 3 items was $117, about the cost of one fuel filter change on a 6 leaker.

barrelhorses · 03-24-2009, 10:21 PM

Pappy, I could be wrong, but I believe the TorqShift trans fluid is supposed to be "changed" every 30K miles. I'll check my manual next time I think about it.

Pappy19 · 03-26-2009, 10:34 AM

I didn't actually check in my manual, but the dealer tech checked his maintenance board on his Ford computer and it said 100k on the TS tranny fluid. I doubt that I will go that long, like maybe 50k, but I probably won't drop the pan and change the filter, will just go with the refill. Dealer charges about $135 for that alone, so it ain't cheap. It's a new Mercon 5 or something special.

JimJoe · 03-27-2009, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pappy19

I didn't actually check in my manual, but the dealer tech checked his maintenance board on his Ford computer and it said 100k on the TS tranny fluid. I doubt that I will go that long, like maybe 50k, but I probably won't drop the pan and change the filter, will just go with the refill. Dealer charges about $135 for that alone, so it ain't cheap. It's a new Mercon 5 or something special.

Dexron III is fine, too. I have a bottle sitting on my desk :-) My dealer things every 30k for the change but 100k should do fine if you do not tow heavily and do a lot of highway driving.

Jim