Coolant & SCA Additives!!

[SyN]

The other thread was closed!!!

Bob! Your forcing me to plant another money tree out back!!!

Your saying that the SCA additive that we have been putting into our 7.3L to prevent this cavitation, does more harm then good?

Here I spent more money and changed to Red ELC when i installed my coolant filter.
To make it worse, I bought 8 extra gallons at the time, just in case they were out of stock, in case of an emergency.

Now! I have heard great things about evens. BUT!! My wife would kick me square in the #$^&*#. If I spent that kind of money to switch again.

If I understand U correctly, I can add the RMI-25 too my exsisting Red ELC, it will clean my cooling system, and keep me from having the cavitaion problem?

This 7.3L is a learning experience everyday.

Thanks
Lonnie Forrest
Oklahoma

[DIESELSITE]

Ok, here's the deal. I found these on our old server, and since there was a current discussion, I had a hair up my butt and wanted them back out. We put some of our articles up here as "sticky's" and closed them. Maybe not so good of an idea.

Now to your issues. First, it looks like I need to add a few things. You cannot use RMI with ELC as the chemical composition is not compatible. You should not be adding any SCAs to ELCs either for the same reason. The ELC's already have an additive package and the inhibitor package is screwed up with the addition of something else. So, in a nutshell, if you believe it's ok to use ELCs (please, I can't enter that argument), but are adding SCAs to the mix, you might just have a chemical composition similar to mud when your done.

SCA additives are ONLY to be added to green coolant. Adding them to Gold goolant will not cause the chemical goop that ELCs will, but it will simply overdose the system, and I've covered that.

Reference:
ELC = Extended Life Coolant (Organic Acid based) - Red and Orange coolants
SCA = Supplimental Coolant Additive (Fw-16, DCA4)

Bob

[SyN]

Thanks Bob: For taking time out of your day to clear this problem up to me.
I have the Red ELC in my system now. I have not poured anything else into the system.

I definitly not going back to green. I will somehow find away to switch over to Evens. Maybe buy 2 gal at a time until I have 7 to 10 gals.

Thanks again
SyN

[Gooch]

I've been getting lots of PM's about Bob's coolant/SCA article (the sticky that was closed), and I would like to address a few things to help folks better understand. I think Bob realizes that much of his information is out-dated, pertains to certain engines other than our Powerstrokes, and is just plain wrong.

To give you a little background, first let me say that I've had extensive training and education in the field of coolants, some by the coolant manufacturers themselves. I worked with International during their cavitation crisis of the 6.9L and 7.3L IDI, helping to write bulletins, provide technical field data, and testing several different types of coolants, SCA's and mixtures thereof. I've operated and maintained a large fleet (100+ vehicles) of International/Ford 7.3L Powerstrokes. I am also a Mechanical Engineer with a background in Materials Science who has studied cavitation in cylinder walls and water pumps. Coolants are my specialty.

Where diesel cylinder cavitation is concerned, the bubbles are formed by the rapid flexing of the cylinder wall liners as the high compression, high energy diesel combustion process takes place. Much like if you filled a plastic liter pop bottle up with water and rapidly flexed the sides of the bottle back and forth with your hand. Bubbles form without any heat present. The bubbles in diesel cylinder wall cavitation don't explode, they implode due to pressure. It is this implosion against the metal surface that causes the pitting to form in the outside of the cylinder wall. Eventually the prolonged pitting become a hole. Water/coolant enters the cylinder, and thus we have engine failure (usually via hydrolock). Unlike gasoline engines, all diesel engines experience some level of inherent cavitation, some worse than others. FWIW, the Ford 6.9L and 7.9L IDI's origianlly had serious cavitation issues because Ford did not initially require (or add) SCA to the coolant. Ford later issued a bulletin to address that, and problems decreased dramatically.

As Bob stated, SCA's are one method of inhibiting cavitation by providing a barrier on the coolant side of the cylinder wall. However, I would like to say that it is not necessarily the SCA's displaced layer that can cause scale and coolant system plugging, but the components in the SCA itself, particularly when mixed with H2O or glycol. The use of conventional SCA is effective, but it requires testing, careful dosing, and frequent flushing. It will reduce heat transfer, and exacerbate water pump and other engine component failure.

One thing that importantly needs to be corrected, and a mistake than many misinformed people make, is that not all OAT coolants are like what GM uses. GM typically uses a "Dexcool" forumulation, which is specifically not recommended for your diesel engine. Dexcool type coolants were never intended for diesel applications. There are many modern Heavy Duty Extended Life Coolants specifically designed for diesels. Delo ELC, Rotella ELC, International's Fleetrite ELC, CAT ELC, Mobil 1 ELC, and a host of others. They will address diesel cavitatation, provide superior metal corrosion protection, provide better heat transfer, require no testing and maintenance, be free of harmful abrasive silicates, borates, and phosphates, and have an operating life up to 1 million miles (Delo ELC). In fact International, who made your engine, recommends and factory-fills with these Heavy Duty Extended Life Coolants (Fleetrite ELC/Shell Rotella ELC). And in fact almost all heavy duty diesel manufacturers use Heavy Duty ELC's meeting the most strict requirements in the industry...Caterpillar's EC-1. Very little to do with GM's OAT coolant.

No where has Ford said you can not use a heavy duty ELC in your Powerstroke due to seal incompatibility. That is simply more misinformation. As we know International makes the engine and uses the HD ELC coolant, generally in more harsh, commercial applications. Seals are fine. The only coolants in the Owner's Manual Ford recommends you don't use are Dexcool and Ford's Specialty Orange. Owners and fleets have been using HD ELC successfully, and in fact with better success, for many, many years.

Another correction...Ford's Gold (G-05) coolant is nothing like a Heavy Duty ELC coolant. Thus is will not meet the more stricts specs of other Heavy Duty ELC coolants, or provide the higher level of protection. The Gold is simply a universal hybrid, one-size-fits-all coolant that Ford uses in its entire line up that, with the exception of the Powerstroke, are all gasoline engines. Ford simply uses the Gold in your diesel out of convenience, simplicity, cost, and uniformity throughout it's product line and dealerships. The Gold coolant contains conventional (green coolant) components like silicate, which eventually form microscopic abrasives that eat water pump seals. It provides a lower level of cavitation protection using traditional SCA's like Nitrite, it has a shorter life, it reduces heat transfer compared to HD ELC's, and it in fact does require testing and SCA maintenance if you are an enthusiast about protecting your engine. In fact Ford recommends you add SCA to the Gold in certain F-Series applications. Caterpillar and John Deere also recommend adding SCA if it is going to be used in their diesels. Ironically, Ford's Gold will not meet International's heavy duty diesel B-1 spec. HD ELC's will. The Gold will work, but it's not the best.

For the record, adding SCA to a HD ELC will not produce anything close to "mud" or "goop". That is more misinformation. HD ELC's and SCA's are completely compatible, although not recommended only because you will lose the long-life properties of the HD ELC. There is no need to add SCA to HD ELC's. "Extenders" are available to add to HD ELC's if you want to further extend their life from the 300K, 500K, or 750K mile mark (depending on brand).

I have no intention of discrediting Bob's comments about the Evans and RMI-25, only to inform you. Evans is a good product, although expensive and hard to find. Less expensive, easier to find modern HD ELC's provide similar operating lives and similar (or better) protection. And the Evans does require modification of your cooling system to run low pressure, when your water pump seal is designed to run (and seal) under higher pressure, as documented by Ford. I have not used RMI-25 and don't plan to for reasons I won't discuss here. I would not recommend putting anything into your cooling system other than coolant and SCA.

Additionally, these days it is not appropriate to identify coolants by color. Color means nothing. A "green" coolant could be anything from a conventional, to a pre-charged, to a G-05, to an ELC. Same with red, purple, pink, gold, etc. You have to know what type of coolant it is.

There are 4 choices for your Powerstroke....

Conventional coolant (usually green) with the addition of SCA at initial fill. Frequent SCA testing and maintenance there after.

Pre-charged coolant (usually purple or pink). Comes with an initial dose of SCA. Frequent SCA testing and maintenance required thereafter.

G-05 coolants. Comes pre-charged with SCA package. Fush required at 50K miles. Semi-annual SCA testing and maintenance recommended.

Heavy Duty Extended Life Coolants. Come pre-charged with carboxylate inhibitors. No testing or maintenance. Super protection. Super long life.

Specialty coolants. Evans. Waterless, pressureless. Long life. No maintenance or testing. Expensive.

Not to be used - Dexcool, Universal coolants, All-makes-all-models, etc.

I use Chevron's Delo HD ELC. Good for 750K miles/8 years or 1M miles with addition of an extender.

[SyN]

Thank U Mr Gooch!!!

Thanks for taking alot of your time to type all that good info.
I would like the Mod's if possible to make Mr Gooch's post a permanent part of this site. There alot of new comers who are like me, and have really no idea what todays diesel's need for coolant.

I pm Gooch about this thread Bob's thread, for the fact I had just changed to the Red ELC at the start of last fall. And purchased 3 extra cases just for emergency. After reading Bob's post, I was kinda dumb founded. I respect Bob more then he will ever know, but I knew Gooch would set me straight.
I know Bob is very very busy, and probably didn't have time to go into detail about his post either. So Thanks very much too both of you Gents.

[DIESELSITE]

Thanks Gooch and LarryM (other post) for posting their additional input.

I think it's very important that everybody gets the most complete information they can. If my post caused you the post the very detailed info that you did on all the coolant types, then the reason for my post worked.

Yes, much of the info in my post is very old, as many of the links are dated back to 1999 and 2001. However, can you tell I hate SCAs?



Bob

[LarryM]

Originally Posted by DIESELSITE

Thanks Gooch and LarryM (other post) for posting their additional input.

I think it's very important that everybody gets the most complete information they can. If my post caused you the post the very detailed info that you did on all the coolant types, then the reason for my post worked.

Yes, much of the info in my post is very old, as many of the links are dated back to 1999 and 2001. However, can you tell I hate SCAs?



Bob

Bob,

My other post in the closed thread was directed more at the actual cavitation issues with at least the 7.3L parent bore engine. As mentioned above in the lengthy ELC post the newer ELCs IMHO are used because they have a longer life than the old green/SCA that has been used for many, many years and in the long run for the big rigs are more cost effective. Both Dodge and Ford for their parent bore engines use the Gold or Zerex G-05 as the recommended coolant in both their diesels and their gas engines as a best all around coolant meets each manufactuer's requirements, and Ford that has some Dodge/CAT engines recommends some additional additives to the Gold which evidently isn't very good for engines that use actual liners. IH/NAVSTAR for probably the same reason now use the ELCs in both their parent bore and cylinder lined engines (which the latter is probably the majority of their engines less those sold to Ford and is therefore more cost effective than using two different coolants). They also still have a tech bulletin out stating that ELCs and gasket materials having silicone in them is a NO, NO and had failures with the ELC in the past before they changed some things.

For these reasons I don't think the Evans gains you much at least in the 7.3L as far a cavitation goes, but because it's waterless should make things like the WP last much, much longer and be less corrosive on the weak links where ever they are like the thermo housing. Also, even tho it has less actual heat transfer properties than a coolant that uses water with at least the 7.3L engine that is evidently a non issue since the 7.3L cooling system is extremely robust.

Larry

[Gooch]

Originally Posted by LarryM

As mentioned above in the lengthy ELC post the newer ELCs IMHO are used because they have a longer life than the old green/SCA that has been used for many, many years and in the long run for the big rigs are more cost effective.

Longer life is only one reason. Heavy Duty ELC's provide better cavitation and corrosion protection, particularly as miles/operating hours add up...Other coolants like conventional w/SCA and the Gold have to be flushed because their inhibitors are worn out. HD ELC's have better heat transfer...They leave no layer of SCA for the heat to pass through. HD ELC's contain no abrasive silicates, borates, or phosphates to eat your water pump or plug your cooling system...they are silicate-free. HD ELC's require no maintenance for long periods, making them more cost effective. They are coolants designed specifically for diesel engines and they meet the most strict requirements in the industry, EC-1. The Gold won't.

Originally Posted by LarryM

Both Dodge and Ford for their parent bore engines use the Gold or Zerex G-05 as the recommended coolant in both their diesels and their gas engines as a best all around coolant meets each manufactuer's requirements

Ford does not make this engine, International does. And International recommends and factory fills with Heavy Duty ELC. While the Gold G-05 may be a universal, one-size-fits-all coolant for Ford and it's entire line of gasoline engines, it is not the best choice for a diesel coolant. It is merely adequate. It will not meet the most strict specs. The HD ELC will.

Originally Posted by LarryM

They also still have a tech bulletin out stating that ELCs and gasket materials having silicone in them is a NO, NO and had failures with the ELC in the past before they changed some things.

This is bad information, and completely false.

In the past LarryM has floated around a technical bulletin that relates to a unique front cover gasket/ELC problem with a different International engine, the DT466. It does not apply to the T444E (Powerstroke), and nowhere in any bulletin will you find anything about failures with the T444E (Powerstroke) and HD ELC coolants.

In July of 2000 International approved the use of HD ELC coolants in all of its engines built after 2/2/99 (SN 940614). In fact they factory filled with it.

I also might add that the Gold G-05 that Ford recommends contains the same OAT carboxylate chemistry that HD ELC's do. The difference being that the Gold G-05 also contains the conventional silicate-containing chemistry of traditional "green" coolants. Thus it is a "hybrid" coolant. So if there were problems with the OAT chemistry in HD ELC's and the T444E Powerstroke's gaskets (there are not), it would also be happening with the Gold G-05 (it is not). Many PSD owners and fleets have been using HD ELC's for years without issues. We certainly don't see any here at "the diesel stop"....and I've been here well over 10 years (previously Abigndon/Ford diesel.com).

[SyN]

Once Again: Thank U Mr Gooch!!! There is so much false information out there floating around. I for one am glad you are a member here.

Thanks again
Lonnie

[02PUFFER]

Gooch, what are your opinions on Prestone Extended Life (greenish coolant, gold bottle)? Do I need a supplement or should I run as is and for how long? Thanks a million man.

[snakyjake]

Is it recommended to run a coolant filter after switching to ELC?

I thought the coolant filters were for running SCA coolants because they will filter the sacrificed SCA silicates from the cavitation.

[Gooch]

02Puffer, do not use the Prestone Extended Life (All makes-all models). It is not a diesel coolant, and was never inteded to be a diesel coolant. Prestone will even tell you that if you call them.

Prestone makes an excellent extended life diesel coolant. It is called Heavy Duty Extended Life Coolant. It will be red coolant in a black bottle. They also make an excellent conventional, pre-charged coolant. But it will have a shorter live and still need to be tested for SCA. It will be purple coolant in a black bottle.

Check them out here: Prestone :: Products : Antifreeze/Coolant

In NJ, you might find them, or order them, at a Carquest, Action Auto Supply, Tri-State, VIP, or Consumer Auto Parts store.

[Gooch]

Snakyjake, you don't need a coolant filter with HD ELC. They are silicate-free. Just make sure you do a complete flush of the system. I have some good instructions here:

Coolant changing instructions...

Of course a coolant filter is always a good idea...in any cooling system.

[snakyjake]

Originally Posted by Gooch

Snakyjake, you don't need a coolant filter with HD ELC. They are silicate-free. Just make sure you do a complete flush of the system. I have some good instructions here:

Coolant changing instructions...

Of course a coolant filter is always a good idea...in any cooling system.

For verification....I ask the question because the SCA's adhere to the cylinders to protect from cavitation. As cavitation happens, the SCA's are sacrificed instead of the metal. It is the sacrificed SCA's (silicates) that then circulate through the cooling system. This is why a coolant filter is necessary....at I assume.

So after the flush, I assume the SCA's are still adhering to the cyclinders, and other surfaces. If cavitation continues, then silicates will reappear in the cooling system, and will need to be filtered or eventually flushed. However, if ELC stops cavitation, then the SCA's will remain adhered to the cyclinders.

Or perhaps the remaining SCA's adhering to the cylinders is extremely small amount, and wouldn't be enough to do any real harm for a very long time.

[Gooch]

The majority of the silicate will be in the conventional coolant itself. Even low-silicate conventional coolants contain significant amounts of silicate. It is this silicate that drops out of solution. The SCA's will contain other things like phosphates, borates, and pH buffers. These can cause a scale build up in the coolant. After doing a good flush, very little contamination will occurr in the new coolant, and the HD ELC will continue to be very effective at inhibiting cavitation and corrosion. I would not recommend any type of chemical flush to "clean" the engine block any better.