Brakes not fully releasing again.Please help me! - Page 2 - Diesel Forum - TheDieselStop.com
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post #16 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-11-2016, 08:40 PM Thread Starter
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Well Ford Doctor mentioned it. Just trying to cover all bases. And by the way when I was buying my truck I printed out some info that said job 3 trucks of 2008 would be seeing the addition of hydro-boost which was not on the job 1 trucks and I'm pretty certain the job 2's either.
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post #17 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-11-2016, 09:29 PM
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Yes, he mentioned it in the context of overall brake issues related to pedal feel, kick back and over aggressiveness. Ford has gone back and forth with vacuum pumps/boosters and hydroboost for decades.

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post #18 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-12-2016, 02:16 AM
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Originally Posted by ford_doctor View Post
...apply an anti-seize compound to the metal before installing the sleeves on the slides. This prevents rust...
Anti-seize lube is not a rust preventative. Some have a silicone grease carrier, which displaces water from the surfaces, but that's more of a side-effect.

Until Tenifer (nitrocarburized) steering knuckle/spindle castings are available, all the working surfaces MUST be cleaned at each brake service; wire wheel, file, sand paper...

BTW Which anti-seize do you use: Aluminum, Nickel, or Copper?
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By the way I live in the Charlotte NC area...
Put it in your profile so it shows with EVERY post. We can't go digging back through the thread each time we need to know.
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...hydro boost was first introduced in 2008.
HB has been around at least since the late 70s, and probably LONG before. This shows it from the early 90s:



The NEXT several diagrams in that album show how it works, how it fails, and how to diagnose/repair it.


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post #19 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-12-2016, 06:09 AM
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If someone is telling you all your brake problems are related to power steering fluid or the hydroboost, just put them on ignore.

Well that wasn't nice. If all 4 wheels drag a brake booster CAN be the cause, vacuum or hydraulic so I felt it was worth a mention. My bad for mentioning it. Didn't mean to step on your toes.


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post #20 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-12-2016, 07:05 AM
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Didn't mean it the way you took it Keith and don't disagree. His history of brake hang ups on an individual brake would not be related to HB. You were giving generalities, he was interested in his issues. I wear steel toed shoes, stepped on never an issue.

Steve,

I've used both petroleum and silicone based anti-seize products and they both have worked well in the application Keith mentioned. The ingredients carried won't matter between the knuckles and slippers as your just looking for a thick paste to displace any moisture that could migrate into that area.

For the last dozen years I've been using Dow Corning Molykote 77, silicone with moly. It's a higher viscosity product that the Asian companies use in the brake area.

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post #21 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-12-2016, 07:59 AM
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Anti-seize lube is not a rust preventative. Some have a silicone grease carrier, which displaces water from the surfaces, but that's more of a side-effect.


Side effect or not, it is effective. The Motorcraft High Temperature Anti-seize Lubricant (XL-2) states "...and guards against rust and corrosion caused by chemicals and weathering." The Permatex Nickel Anti-seize states something similar " Salt, corrosion and moisture resistant." I wouldn't paint the bottom of my truck with it expecting it to prevent rust but for the application I mentioned it's ideal. Did I mention it's effective? Silicone Brake Caliper Grease (Motorcraft XG-3-A) would also be effective and acceptable for the application I mentioned.


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post #22 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-12-2016, 09:55 AM Thread Starter
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From your postings on all the different forums it appears your looking for suggestions so you can hand them to the service advisor for the mechanic to look for. That will be insulting to most of the guys in the bay's and depending on the personality of who gets this jackpot it could get expensive.

Since your not the one doing the work the best suggestion I have would be to talk to people locally to find who would take the time to fully go over the system objectively once the 20mile problem is resolved.

As I stated earlier you mention changing rotors often. These will not cause the issue and only be suffering damage from the issue. You've changed pads numberious times. Those may or may not be part of the issue, but you don't state if they have been aftermarket or what brands, or if during disassembly there was any hangup. No where has it been mentioned if any calipers were changed, which could be more problematic then the other parts you've mentioned changing.

I've already stated where I would first look since this recent problem occurred within 20 miles of the install. Every time you have an issue it has to be looked at as a new problem. Could the stoplight switch be hanging up, yes but that typically causes 4 wheel hangup. Was the switch recently changed?

Did you ask the shop to just change the pads and rotors or were they aware to look for any other issues? The other question I would ask the installer is how they protected the front caliper hoses from damage during the install. But if this would be coming into my hands as I stated earlier I would duplicate the problem and check for residual brake fluid pressure first, but my more direct investigation would be pad fitment.

To answer some of your questions above:

The tech i'm working with is open to ideas as he's at a total lost just like the other 3 plus techs that have worked on this truck over the years. To your next question on calipers, yes both fronts have been changed but not the rears. The current shop i'm using (which i like them) has worked on the brakes 3 different times so they have some history. This morning I stopped by to provide them all the old invoices related to brake repairs to go through. This way they can see all the parts and repairs to the brakes from the other dealers.



****My frustration is that I've had 12-15 vehicles over the years and none have had the first brake issue other than normal replacement of pads and rotors. Everyone is talking alot about the correct cleaning and lubricant anti-seize procedures which I can see for one brake that could rust up. But to have all the brakes do it over and over while having multiple shops clean, lube etc I just find it hard to believe that its a cleaning/lube issue. All all the shops using the wrong cleaning and lubing procedure? Or are these brakes so bad that they have to perfectly cleaned and lubed with only 1 type of grease anti-sieze etc? Are the F250 brakes just that bad?

My next step is I'm having them to change the power steering fluid (never been changed anyways). I've also noticed the power steering seems to feel heavier or harder to turn than in the past but I drive another vehicle for work that has very light steering so maybe its just me. So at this point any ideas of what to check next? If not I probably just pick it up today unless something else comes to mind. We also just drove it again and the brakes are fine with no overheating. But this is the same as in the past. After a major overheat just let them cool way down and then everything works great again till the next time. That next time could be 2 weeks or 6 months. Now I have damaged rotors and pads again and my wallet is alot thinner. Fun Fun!

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post #23 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-12-2016, 10:02 AM Thread Starter
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By the way thanks for everyones help so far. Maybe eventually we can uncover the culprit to this mystery.

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post #24 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-12-2016, 12:05 PM
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I'm glad you gave the mechanic all the history, and that is part of why I've been frustrated with this thread. While I do understand how frustrating this is for you, and your desperately looking for an answer, from my perspective I saw an owner who was going to be a mechanics worst nightmare, one who going to give him a list of things to do and not a discussion. I could go on but let's just move on and forget the earlier part of this thread.

There have been two designing suppliers for this truck platform. From '99 to '05 Ford used Akebono, a company with a long history with Asian vehicles. There were issues of brake hangup and a few other things that took warranty numbers high enough that Ford decided to go back to their original caliper supplier. And now we have the same issues. And other truck manufacturers have seen the same issues also with different caliper suppliers in this same weight class. The Akebono caliper was really just a big brother of its other calipers and somewhere I have pictures that show they were just bigger for this application. Yet the pass car is free of these issues.

So what the heck is going on? From my perspective I've not seen one solid answer. From my prior testing the only variable I can identify over the decades is that with this weight class the brakes run cooler on average. With the older 250/350 in our durability tests of normal driving we ran mostly 100f over boiling water temp. Since disc/disc we did not. This may be contributing to higher oxidation at the pad ends, slide pins and behind the caliper dust boots. Honestly, this is a SWAG as I have no support data. But we see slide pin issues, pads hanging in the brackets and caliper hangup all the time, all caliper designs and vehicle manufacturers.

So when people ask for solutions some of us have seen improved results with the things discussed, making sure the pads move freely on first install, preventative measures to resist oxidation at the pad ends and caliper slides, and checking on a routine basis. I've done that with my several F250/350s I've never had these brakes hangup, the current truck at 13 years and 200k. And there are times I pull a 12k trailer.

Brake hoses have been a contributor to problems and the times I have seen that relate to someone servicing the brakes and distress ion the hoses or have a lifted truck where they don't realize the hoses being distressed at full turn and suspension extension. After about ten years they can also have age related issues.

The aftermarket side has just increased this jackpot exponentially. Coming from a supplier of both OE and aftermarket, spec control is weak and it is very easy to have the pads steel backs oversize or have excessive paint. This is true even with aftermarket pads sold through vehicle manufacturers dealers, in this trucks case, Motorcraft.

Then we have rebuilt calipers. Rebuilders use aftermarket seals and pistons which have the same spec issues. A few years back there was a huge increase of issues with rebuilt calipers hanging up, and while I have no test data, my industry experience tells me that was due to phenolic pistons not being fully cured as they would swell when hot. And you always have the issue with rebuilt calipers exhibiting corrosion pitting in the boot seal groove which do not seal as well as new castings, so the propensity of corrosion sooner in the rebuilt calipers in-service life is higher.

And we have occasional issues such as a newly install brake switch hanging up, or rust developing between the master cylinder and hydrobooster, or boosters issues.

So here we have the situation where my truck is twice as old and twice as many miles as your and I've never had an issue. And with all the various issues you've had each could be one of the items listed above. And why with each situation it's important for someone to document what they found to be that problem. You could round robin all four wheel brakes and never have the same issue.

And yeah, 'no problem found' is just as frustrating for the mechanic as it is for the owner as you know it will be coming back. And for people who are trying to help over the computer.

So, when this mechanic reviewed this problem you saw 20 miles into this install, did he run the same route as you did? On reexamination were the pads freely moving in the brackets and lubricated?
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post #25 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-12-2016, 02:50 PM
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For the last dozen years I've been using Dow Corning Molykote 77, silicone with moly.
Molybdenum grease is toxic, and should NOT be used by typical vehicle owners & mechanics. I think even the US Army quit using it (GMD). Ford replaced it with PTFE grease in some applications (e.g., speedo cables), and silicone dielectric in others (e.g., brakes).
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Everyone is talking alot about the correct cleaning and lubricant anti-seize procedures...
Don't let our tangential discussion distract you.
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All all the shops using the wrong cleaning and lubing procedure?
I've worked in several dealerships, and several independent shops, and it's VERY RARE to see any technician following the recommended/published procedure for ANYTHING; but particularly, cleaning & lubricating the brakes, and even proper technique for lug nut tightening. Did you read that TSB in my first post?


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post #26 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-12-2016, 03:07 PM
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The Motorcraft High Temperature Anti-seize Lubricant (XL-2) states "...and guards against rust and corrosion caused by chemicals and weathering." The Permatex Nickel Anti-seize states something similar " Salt, corrosion and moisture resistant."
Just to put that back into context...
Quote:
Originally Posted by MotorCraft XL-2
Provides high temperature lubrication up to 2552 F (1400 C)
Prevents seizing and galling of metal parts
Guards against rust and corrosion caused by chemicals and weathering
For use when replacing oxygen sensors
https://www.fcsdchemicalsandlubrican...tegory=Greases

So there's a distinction to be made between "Prevents" and "guards". Likewise: I think Permatex's choice to use the word "resistant" is worth considering. I choose to read them in the context they are presented: at VERY HIGH temperatures, and with regard to typical corrosion of bare metal AT those temperatures. You may choose a different interpretation, and that's OK with me.


My bottom line is: there's a reason Ford recommends dielectric for brakes, and not anti-seize.


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post #27 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-12-2016, 04:04 PM
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Yeah, there is a reason but it's not because they've eliminated moly in greases, nor have they.

So where do get this toxicity warning?

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post #28 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-13-2016, 06:05 AM
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Well it looks like we have a bunch of peeps pissin on each other here. I'm gonna bow out and let you experts handle it.


sawtooth I do hope you finally resolve your concern.


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post #29 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-15-2016, 01:53 AM
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...it's not because they've eliminated moly in greases...
That wasn't about moly - it was only about anti-seize on brake slides.
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So where do get this toxicity warning?
I think the first time I heard about it was from an instructor at 11MC2 school (Bradley IFV crewman) back in the mid 90s, I guess. The specified grease for part of the Bushmaster's receiver or feeder was GMD which stands for "grease, molybdenum disulfide". But he said it stood for "grease'll makeya dead" because of its toxicity, and because he had trouble pronouncing the chemical names. Ford used to (as late as '89) specify the same grease for speedo cables & several other general maintenance items, but now recommends PTFE in old speedo cables.



Quote:
Originally Posted by fcsdchemicalsandlubricants.com
PTFE Lubricant

For use with driveshaft slip yokes; especially where grunt-type noise is experienced
Useful in eliminating squeaks between plastic parts
For use on speedometer cables; stops squeaking, sticking and binding
I only just thought of digging up an MSDS for it, and although I haven't found one for the grease version yet, I found these for the powder:
https://www.fishersci.com/shop/msdsp...me=AC215781000
http://www.khck.hk/adgoogle/catalog/...ide%20MSDS.pdf
http://www.espimetals.com/index.php/...bdenum-sulfide
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Well it looks like we have a bunch of peeps pissin on each other here.
We're just discussin'.


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post #30 of 36 (permalink) Old 05-22-2016, 02:10 PM
 
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Jumping in here...

Half of our business is fixing other guys' crap. Half of our customers come here because someone else couldn't fix the problems they were having.

Furthermore, I'm a very "There it is" kind of technician. I prefer to put my finger on the root of the problem so that we can fix it right...the last time. Simply throwing parts at something is NOT a quality repair and is akin to wasting/steeling a customer's money. Going to Autozone and having some Freckle-Faced kid read the trouble codes is NOT diagnosis.

Back in the day (circa 1986), I was working in a small Lincoln Mercury dealership in FL. We had a lady with a brand
new Town Car come in with the front brakes melted. The rotors were a lovely shade blue, the pads were half gone and crumbling, even the boots on the steering linkage were melted...these babies had been HOT. When we checked it out, everything looked OK. Everything turned freely, nothing was jammed up, it all looked fine, so we jammed a set of rotors and pads on it, rebuilt the calipers (we did that back then), fixed all the melted stuff and sent her on her way. Low and Behold, the car comes back 2-weeks later on a hook with the front brakes melted again. This was around the time that Kelsey-Hayes was doing the ABS systems. So this time we went further. We replaced the master cylinder, ABS module and HCU, 2 new Ford calipers along with the rest of the blue stuff. this time we kept the car for a period of time and put some miles on it for ourselves to try and duplicate the problem. One day while driving it, I felt the brakes start to lock down. It wouldn't move from a stop without the throttle and it started to smell like hot brakes. I pulled over and looked around. Sure enough, the front rotors were way too hot. I could feel the heat coming thru the wheels. I looked under the hood at the brake fluid and all was well. I decided to pull the cap and as I did, I heard a Pfffft noise and the level came up a little. I thought to myself, "Son of a Hillary, I just found the problem". As the car was driven, heat was expanding the fluid and the cap was not venting the pressure. So a $3 reservoir cap fixed the problem.

Fast forward 10 years, I was an experienced tech and an avid fan of the Taurus SHO. There were 5 Factory Trained SHO Specialists in the country of which, I was one. The '91 SHO's started having a problem with dragging the rear brakes. Same sort of thing where the car wouldn't roll on its own but if you lifted up on the brake pedal with your toe, it would work fine. I found that the brake pedal was not returning properly. Turns out, the booster in the cars were a standard Taurus piece and not SHO specific. These engines made more vacuum than the regular Taurus engines, especially downshifting with its manual transmission and could overcome the spring in the booster and drag the rear brakes. the solution...a throttle return spring added to the brake pedal under the dash to act as a helper spring. Problem Solved.

I guess the point is that a good Technician, that has all the information and gives a Barak about doing the job right can find the real problem and fix it right. You might find this guy in a dealership or in a private shop like mine. It may even be worth a trip to Atlanta.

Doug Lewis

Ford Performance Specialists
351 Six Flags Pkwy SE
Mableton, GA 30126
770-949-7191

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