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post #16 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-05-2014, 08:01 PM
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Then it sounds like I took the pedal comment more to heart then I should have.

These type of intermittent problems, especially when you inspect and find nothing are frustrating. Even with the resources we had there had been things we could only theorize about (ranger rear drum).

The issue with the four layer rubber hoses is with the inner layer and secondary layer under the fiber reinforcement. With any tear fluid goes between the layers and balloons. The advantage with the Teflon lines is there is only one layer of tube, with the braid reinforcement over it. The DOT rated Teflon hose will include an additional tube to keep dirt out of the braid which in past situations have worn into the Teflon causing a leak.

The Teflon hoses have a reputation of less expansion then the rubber tubes, but there are some vehicles that have higher pressure rated hoses with equal resistance to expansion. The market is so small that I know of no suppliers that care to enter that product into the market and just allow secondary suppliers fill the void with the Teflon product.

I'll state that I have Teflon on my motorcycle and my wife's LS, but not on my truck.

Jack
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post #17 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-04-2014, 04:33 AM Thread Starter
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Well I hope everyone had a great summer. I'm back again with the same problems.

I have another driver so I worked on the F-250 over the summer as I could get around to it.

First, I replaced all 5 flex lines and bled/flushed the system with about 4 quarts of DOT 3 fluid. Brakes seemed to work great the few amounts of times I ran it on short trips (20 miles or less).

Then I noticed my right rear caliper hanging. So I replaced both rear calipers last week with Ford Original (not re-manufactured) purchased through the fine folks at Tousley/Auto Nation White Bear Lake Ford.

Today I took it on a 60 mile trip and by the time I got home my front rotors were smoking hot and totally locked up. My tranny temp was 20 hotter too than normal.

So I replace the rear calipers and my front calipers start to lock up ????

This is really starting to perplex me. I ordered new front calipers and pads today. From there the only other thing that I could picture would be

1). ABS hydraulic
2). ABS electronic
3). Master cylinder

Do I pull the fuse on the ABS system and see what happens ?

Only good thing here is I'm saving big money and time on labor, putting new parts in an almost 10 Y/O truck.

However, I hate to keep throwing parts at a problem with no real definitive diagnosis.

Thoughts ?

Thanks again for your continuing advice and concern gentlemen.

--Harry

2005 F250 XLT SC, LB
6.0 Torqueshift 3.73LS 4x4 T/C
Trk Bld: 02/05/05 KY
Eng Bld: 02/03/05 Indianapolis
2825 Hrs +/-, 101K Miles - No Major Probs other than brakes
DC Power 185 Alternator
ZOODAD, SEIC,
Atlas 40 FICM @ 90K
4" Banks Turbo-Back Duals
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Bilstein 5100's
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post #18 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-04-2014, 05:21 AM
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Definitely not mast cylinder related. There's no way a master cylinder could fail and cause this.

Have you had it scanned with something that can read ABS codes?

'06 F250 4x4 - 5" Flo Pro exhaust, SB Filter intake, Accufab elbow, Edge Evolution (monitoring only), SCT w/ ID custom tune, FASS 195 pump, Gillette Diesel EGR cooler delete, Sinister Diesel coolant filter, ELC coolant, updated turbo drain tube/oil feed line/STC fitting/oil cooler, ARPs w/OEM HGs, Elite coolant lines, ITP RR fuel system, RCD 175/30 injectors, Powermax, BD CCV, FICM.com FICM w/ ID tune, Elite UP, BPD water pump - 13.069 @ 101.94

'02 WRX - Outback rear disc swap, EBC green pads, DBA pillar vane rotors, TXS UP/TBE/TMIC, Perrin LW crank pulley, PPG billet steel shift forks, ACT Streetlite flywheel & clutch, K&N filter, STi Group N motor/trans mounts, TiC/Kartboy rear diff mounts/subframe lock bolts/outrigger stiffeners, Kartboy SS & all shifter bushings, custom PDX tune for Cobb AP - went 14.1 on a terrible 60ft before most of these mods; shooting for 13.50s
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post #19 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-04-2014, 06:20 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKOPerformance View Post
Definitely not mast cylinder related. There's no way a master cylinder could fail and cause this.

Have you had it scanned with something that can read ABS codes?

Any suggestions on what to use ? Where I'm at it's not like I can walk into either one of the two only service shops in town asking for a code read. I'd hate to see the outcome if they were to laugh at me. Wouldn't be pretty. I'd rather just throw parts at it. The way I figure it, I'm almost there anyway. If I were to let a local shop do the work I'd probably get less than what I'm doing by myself not to mention non OEM parts.

2005 F250 XLT SC, LB
6.0 Torqueshift 3.73LS 4x4 T/C
Trk Bld: 02/05/05 KY
Eng Bld: 02/03/05 Indianapolis
2825 Hrs +/-, 101K Miles - No Major Probs other than brakes
DC Power 185 Alternator
ZOODAD, SEIC,
Atlas 40 FICM @ 90K
4" Banks Turbo-Back Duals
3.5" Ready Lift
Bilstein 5100's
315 - 70R17 Duratrac's
Centramatics
Bodiak Front Receiver
SG2
Coolant Filter
HFCM Plug Upgrade

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post #20 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-04-2014, 07:39 PM
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Some scanners are better than others. The top end scanners can read the ABS codes. If you're really stuck in that situation I'd advise spending a little money on a good scanner. My neighbor has a Snap On one that's been able to read anything thus far. Its older, but still does the job thanks to various updates, etc. You might want to start a new thread and ask about it specifically. Some members here can probably direct you to the best option.

FYI, sometimes you will need a scanner to cycle the ABS pump to get all the air out of the system in the event you do need to replace the ABS unit.

'06 F250 4x4 - 5" Flo Pro exhaust, SB Filter intake, Accufab elbow, Edge Evolution (monitoring only), SCT w/ ID custom tune, FASS 195 pump, Gillette Diesel EGR cooler delete, Sinister Diesel coolant filter, ELC coolant, updated turbo drain tube/oil feed line/STC fitting/oil cooler, ARPs w/OEM HGs, Elite coolant lines, ITP RR fuel system, RCD 175/30 injectors, Powermax, BD CCV, FICM.com FICM w/ ID tune, Elite UP, BPD water pump - 13.069 @ 101.94

'02 WRX - Outback rear disc swap, EBC green pads, DBA pillar vane rotors, TXS UP/TBE/TMIC, Perrin LW crank pulley, PPG billet steel shift forks, ACT Streetlite flywheel & clutch, K&N filter, STi Group N motor/trans mounts, TiC/Kartboy rear diff mounts/subframe lock bolts/outrigger stiffeners, Kartboy SS & all shifter bushings, custom PDX tune for Cobb AP - went 14.1 on a terrible 60ft before most of these mods; shooting for 13.50s
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post #21 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-04-2014, 09:03 PM
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AutoEnginuity w/the Ford Bundle will read ABS codes.

With it being a safety system, I believe any ABS code should set a light. Could be wrong, though.

Have you done any tear apart of the calipers after they failed? This sure sounds like a corrosion issue. Maybe a piston seal allowing moisture / humidity in and corroding where you can't see it? Or a slide pin corroding?

Scott

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post #22 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-05-2014, 04:39 AM Thread Starter
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Auto Enginuity sounds like my best option after the new front calipers are installed if I still have issues. No I haven't torn them down. They get a $50/ea core so I have to send them back in the original box no less.

I've maintained all of the calipers and brackets exceptionally well over the years and the slide pins are working fine. I mean if you put a big C clamp on the pads and press the cups in they slide real easy. So do the pads in the caliper brackets. So that leaves the possibility of corrosion of the caliper around the cups or an ABS issue.

The ABS light does not remain illuminated after start up. Not sure if it would under the circumstances if it were an ABS issue. Then again there are 2 sides to the ABS system; The Electronic and the Hydraulic. Would the ABS light illuminate with a problem in the Hydraulic side ?

What's really weird is after replacing the 5 flexible hose ends and shortly thereafter the rear calipers immediately thereafter both front calipers lock up tighter than a crabs arse. I mean those babies were SMOKIN hot.

Being there are separate brake lines to each front caliper makes me wonder since only one feeds both rear calipers. Just some food for thought.

--Harry

2005 F250 XLT SC, LB
6.0 Torqueshift 3.73LS 4x4 T/C
Trk Bld: 02/05/05 KY
Eng Bld: 02/03/05 Indianapolis
2825 Hrs +/-, 101K Miles - No Major Probs other than brakes
DC Power 185 Alternator
ZOODAD, SEIC,
Atlas 40 FICM @ 90K
4" Banks Turbo-Back Duals
3.5" Ready Lift
Bilstein 5100's
315 - 70R17 Duratrac's
Centramatics
Bodiak Front Receiver
SG2
Coolant Filter
HFCM Plug Upgrade

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post #23 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-05-2014, 05:04 AM
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Diagnostics are only as good as what the sensors can read, so no, there could certainly be an issue mechanically that the electronic side of the ABS system can't see.

A possibility is that one or more of the cup seals in the ABS pump have flipped. I've never had this issue myself, but my neighbor (who's a mechanic) has. He now opens the bleeder screw when compressing the pistons into the calipers to allow the fluid a path other than backwards through the system. It only takes an extra minute to bleed some fluid through after getting it back together and ensure there's no air in the system.

'06 F250 4x4 - 5" Flo Pro exhaust, SB Filter intake, Accufab elbow, Edge Evolution (monitoring only), SCT w/ ID custom tune, FASS 195 pump, Gillette Diesel EGR cooler delete, Sinister Diesel coolant filter, ELC coolant, updated turbo drain tube/oil feed line/STC fitting/oil cooler, ARPs w/OEM HGs, Elite coolant lines, ITP RR fuel system, RCD 175/30 injectors, Powermax, BD CCV, FICM.com FICM w/ ID tune, Elite UP, BPD water pump - 13.069 @ 101.94

'02 WRX - Outback rear disc swap, EBC green pads, DBA pillar vane rotors, TXS UP/TBE/TMIC, Perrin LW crank pulley, PPG billet steel shift forks, ACT Streetlite flywheel & clutch, K&N filter, STi Group N motor/trans mounts, TiC/Kartboy rear diff mounts/subframe lock bolts/outrigger stiffeners, Kartboy SS & all shifter bushings, custom PDX tune for Cobb AP - went 14.1 on a terrible 60ft before most of these mods; shooting for 13.50s
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post #24 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-06-2014, 06:14 PM
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Harry,

Sorry, I don’t visit here that often here to have seen the PM on the day you posted. I probably wasn’t as responsive last May with your situation – I had been taking care of my mother and she finally past on 5/31.

That model year truck has a three circuit ABS system, one circuit for the rear brakes and one for each front brake. Internally all circuits share an accumulator to maintain emergency pressure and the pressurizing pump. And there are spool valves that are only active during an ABS warranted event, otherwise at full rest.

When you first turn on the truck the ABS goes into self-diagnosis, checking that the three wheel speed sensors are functional, the pressure pump is functional, and that three spool valves actuate. After that the only reason you would see the yellow ABS light are listed below. I’ve never heard of an ABS cup issue, nor do I remember there being any cup in the K-H ABS unit. O-Rings yes, but the only cups in the hydraulic circuit are in the M/C.

Here is a list of what the diagnostics would tell you. B's are in the electronic module or brake pedal switch, C's are in the controller.

B1342 Anti-Lock Brake Control Module Failure
B1485 Brake Pedal Position (BPP) Switch Circuit Failure
B1676 Voltage Out of Range
B2141/B2477 Memory Configuration Failure
C1226 Brake Lamp Warning Output Circuit Short to Ground
C1194/C1196 LF ABS Outlet Valve Circuit Failure/Short to Battery
C1198/C1200 LF ABS Inlet Valve Circuit Failure/Short to Battery
C1202/C1204 Rear ABS Outlet Valve Circuit Failure/Short to Battery
C1206/C1208 Rear ABS Inlet Valve Circuit Failure/Short to Battery
C1210/C1212 RF ABS Outlet Valve Circuit Failure/Short to Battery
C1214/C1216 RF ABS Inlet Valve Circuit Failure/Short to Battery
C1155 LF Wheel Speed Sensor Input Circuit Failure
C1158/C1233 LF Wheel Speed Sensor Input Signal Erratic/Missing
C1145 RF Wheel Speed Sensor Input Circuit Failure
C1148/C1234 RF Wheel Speed Sensor Input Signal Erratic/Missing
C1230 Rear Axle Speed Sensor Input Circuit Failure
C1229/C1237 Rear Wheel Speed Input Signal Erratic/Missing
C1095/C1096 ABS Hydraulic Pump Motor Failure
C1113/C1115/C1185 Shorted Internal Power Relay
C1185 Open Internal Power Relay
C1169 Excessive Dump Time
C1184 ABS System Timeout
C1222 Wheel Speed Error/Mismatch

All are electrical circuit failures with the only exception being C1169 indicating a slow spool valve response. If a spool valve had moved to a closing position and is stuck there would be no way to tell other then yellow light on, C1169 code. But if it was in a closed position you would not be getting any brake fluid to the wheel(s) and would notice a severe pull or very poor stopping ability.


The first thing is to determine if it’s a mechanical problem at the calipers or a hydraulic issue upstream. Considering both front wheels at the same time, in the back of my mind I’m thinking upstream hydraulics, but that’s not the way to check. The one thing everyone with a truck that is having brake hang-up issues should do is to carry around a wrench so you can open the caliper bleeder screws to relieve hydraulic pressure. That may not be the issue but when the hang-up is occurring it is definitive to tell if either the hoses or the actuation system upstream traps the fluid. Plus if it is a hydraulic pressure issue it will allow it to release so you can move along. One wrench in the glove compartment. But that pressure check has to be done while the brake is hanging up and hot.

Now it is possible that both front wheel ends have a hang-up issue at the same time, but that is not the way it usually happens. It’s typically one side, or one side then the other side at different times. Same if the very rare occurrence of the ABS controller having an issue with one of its spool valves, it would have to happen with both valves at the same time.

So now we go upstream as there is only one brake line coming into the ABS controller for both front brakes. And if the front chamber of the M/C is not fully retracting to its rest position so the compensating port opens to the reservoir and releases all pressure, you can have both front wheels locking up. Usually the common complaint is that all four wheels locked up, but I have seen on a number of occasions when the design/manufacturing of the M/C is such that the two chambers and seals are not perfectly sync’ed. And the best way to sort that out is to slightly back off the line nuts on the M/C lines to see if there is pressurized fluid there, again when the hang-up occurs. Now if you’ve already released pressure at the calipers that’s not going to happen, so a repeat drive or event needs to happen to check that.

Did you ever move the M/C forward to see if there was any rust behind it as discussed last May? Can you do another run and see if the problem reoccurs, then check at the bleeders / line nuts? Maybe you’ve already done this. Hard to tell from three hours away.

When you change out the front calipers if you want to check the caliper interior for rust or other issues the rebuilder should only be concerned that they are getting back the caliper body and the pistons. They should not care if it is disassembled, but you can check with the store beforehand.

Jack
Former Vehicle Test Manager - Friction Products
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post #25 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-07-2014, 08:43 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks TKO and Jack. Sorry to hear about your loss.

Thanks for taking the time to compose the response. Theres some good info there. I'm smacking my head for not thinking about keeping a 3/8" wrench in the truck. Great idea.

I should have the front calipers tomorrow and I'll swap them out. One of the things that I found the day after the front brake lock up was that my brake pedal was waaaay low. So yesterday morning I bled the 4 calipers with about 2 quarts of brake fluid. I removed my front calipers and the pads were in pretty good shape. They only have a couple thousand miles on them. I took the truck out and did quite a few abrupt stops. The pedal is much more sensitive and seems ok. So far so good. But I'm only running around town. The problem generally arises on trips of 25 miles or more.

I'm just wondering if air in the brake lines may have caused both front calipers to lock up. Considering I just replaced both rear calipers I may not have bled the system thoroughly. Just a thought.

I guess I'll know for sure in a couple of days once the front calipers are installed which direction to go if the problem hasn't been resolved.

Thanks again for all the input. I'll keep you guys apprised of the situation.

Best, --Harry

2005 F250 XLT SC, LB
6.0 Torqueshift 3.73LS 4x4 T/C
Trk Bld: 02/05/05 KY
Eng Bld: 02/03/05 Indianapolis
2825 Hrs +/-, 101K Miles - No Major Probs other than brakes
DC Power 185 Alternator
ZOODAD, SEIC,
Atlas 40 FICM @ 90K
4" Banks Turbo-Back Duals
3.5" Ready Lift
Bilstein 5100's
315 - 70R17 Duratrac's
Centramatics
Bodiak Front Receiver
SG2
Coolant Filter
HFCM Plug Upgrade

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post #26 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-07-2014, 09:55 AM
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Thanks. I got her to 99 days and 101 years, about a decade longer then her siblings. Not sure I could have done better and her quality of life was degrading so it was time.

You've had a long / soft pedal before. Air is often the issue with that although a malfunctioning M/C or ABS controller can also do that. There is a check for the ABS, but you have to remove the drivers side battery on your year I believe. I have the procedure at my Facebook page and I should have it up on this site in the past. But if you had overheated brakes depending on the temperature and time you could have had some brake fluid boil, and while most of the gasses reconstitute back into fluid, sometimes they don't with residual gas left behind. That could be your longer pedal. Air will not cause a lockup, just the longer pedal.

The front brakes would have a higher friction level after a hot event. It's typical on a truck of this size to have a friction material that develops it's best frictional characteristics when it's commercially worked in an upper temperature range. The friction on the 99-04 trucks had a higher then normal delta between its low energy and high energy input levels. The thinking was the SDs were going to the commercial market and the material would be fine. For those of us that use the vehicle lighter then commercial and around town never get the friction to change over to its higher potential. The OE materials for the 05+ years does not have as large of a delta! but all semi-mets OE or aftermarket share that they need to see elevated temperatures to have the highest friction level. That's the reason Companies like Hawk and PF have customers go through a "break in" procedure.

There is something complicated going on with your truck, maybe a couple of things at the same time. Did you ever move the M/C forward and see if there was any rust buildup between the M/C and booster?

Jack
Former Vehicle Test Manager - Friction Products
03 F350SC 4x4 6.0 Auto 5/30/03

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"Did you ever move the M/C forward and see if there was any rust buildup between the M/C and booster?"

No but I will when I swap out the front calipers in the next day or so.

2005 F250 XLT SC, LB
6.0 Torqueshift 3.73LS 4x4 T/C
Trk Bld: 02/05/05 KY
Eng Bld: 02/03/05 Indianapolis
2825 Hrs +/-, 101K Miles - No Major Probs other than brakes
DC Power 185 Alternator
ZOODAD, SEIC,
Atlas 40 FICM @ 90K
4" Banks Turbo-Back Duals
3.5" Ready Lift
Bilstein 5100's
315 - 70R17 Duratrac's
Centramatics
Bodiak Front Receiver
SG2
Coolant Filter
HFCM Plug Upgrade

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post #28 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-07-2014, 06:10 PM
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I would also highly suggest removing the caliper mounts and removing the pins and thoroughly cleaning the pin and bore and greasing them with synthetic grease. Those pins can get stuck and lock up causing the caliper not to move the way it should. That could cause a lockup. For some unkown reason I've had issues with the pins on the LH side, but never the RH. I guess I drive in the fast lane a lot...

'06 F250 4x4 - 5" Flo Pro exhaust, SB Filter intake, Accufab elbow, Edge Evolution (monitoring only), SCT w/ ID custom tune, FASS 195 pump, Gillette Diesel EGR cooler delete, Sinister Diesel coolant filter, ELC coolant, updated turbo drain tube/oil feed line/STC fitting/oil cooler, ARPs w/OEM HGs, Elite coolant lines, ITP RR fuel system, RCD 175/30 injectors, Powermax, BD CCV, FICM.com FICM w/ ID tune, Elite UP, BPD water pump - 13.069 @ 101.94

'02 WRX - Outback rear disc swap, EBC green pads, DBA pillar vane rotors, TXS UP/TBE/TMIC, Perrin LW crank pulley, PPG billet steel shift forks, ACT Streetlite flywheel & clutch, K&N filter, STi Group N motor/trans mounts, TiC/Kartboy rear diff mounts/subframe lock bolts/outrigger stiffeners, Kartboy SS & all shifter bushings, custom PDX tune for Cobb AP - went 14.1 on a terrible 60ft before most of these mods; shooting for 13.50s
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post #29 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-07-2014, 06:51 PM
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The passenger side of roadways tend to be lower for water drainage and therefore has more water on its surface. So there is more water spray and more splash from puddles that the passenger side tire throws on the drivers side brake. Think of the TV commercials where people get splashed from road side puddles. Not only does that water go to the sidewalk, but it goes to the drivers side.

Jack
Former Vehicle Test Manager - Friction Products
03 F350SC 4x4 6.0 Auto 5/30/03

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post #30 of 45 (permalink) Old 09-07-2014, 07:17 PM
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Harry,

When you disassembly the front brakes I would do a "forensic" type examination.

Push back the caliper pistons only as much as you need to clear the nibs on the pads steel backs so you can lift off the caliper.

Check if both pads are easy to slide out of the bracket or if there is any hang up.

If hang up, check if there is any rust on the tabs of the steelbacks where the fit into the brackets. Also check if there is any rust under the stainless steel slippers that the tabs slide in. On the 05+ brakes the slide on pad retractors (springs) should robustly push the pads away from the rotor.

As TKO mentioned carefully inspect the pins and bores, but first move the pins back and forth to see how free they are before pulling them out of the bracket.

When you have the old calipers completely off the vehicle try to push each piston in with you thumbs. When new and very free you often can. With a few years service life I usually have to use a small clamp, but I push them in one at a time so I can tell if one has a higher resistance to retraction.

The only other thing to check if you have new brackets is that the pads slide easily before you button it up.

Jack
Former Vehicle Test Manager - Friction Products
03 F350SC 4x4 6.0 Auto 5/30/03

YouTube Videos Google - TooManyToys

Step Lights;Painted Flanges; Bypass Oil Filter; Heated Mirror Switch; Reverse Lights; 7.3L Fuel Reg Shim; 6 Disc Radio Speed Volume Mod; Coolant Filter, etc.
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