Battery cable - positive side - terminal broke - Page 3 - Diesel Forum - TheDieselStop.com
Power Stroke Excursions Technical discussion of the Ford Excursion SUV with the Power Stroke diesel.

 6Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #31 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-26-2017, 10:52 PM
Senior Member
 
Steve83's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Memphis, TN 38133, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Posts: 1,703
My Photos: (0)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcastle View Post
Those are cheap batteries, and the stack of ring terminals on that positive clamp is a poor connection. Look at how the current has to flow between the big red cable at the far Left, and that positive battery post:
-cable
-crimped ring
-bolt OR tiny ring to the other big ring
-clamp
-post

Every one of those joints is subject to corrosion because it's exposed to the atmosphere (which can include Oxygen, rain, engine fluids, battery acid...). Even the crimped joints can wick acid in. For each joint, there's SOME voltage drop; if the joint is dirty or loose, there's more drop. If the cables were soldered directly to the clamp,
there'd be only 1 joint to worry about:
-clamp
-post

And those rings don't look very clean right now, so they're probably already dropping the battery voltage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckster57 View Post
There is a tool that you can use a small sledge hammer with.
A soldered joint is easier, cheaper, stronger, and a VASTLY-superior electrical connection. It can also be UN-joined without damage to the cable or terminal, so either can be reused. It just takes a minute or 2 more to solder than to whack. The tool for soldering (a common propane torch) is cheaper, too.


https://www.supermotors.net/registry/2742/69178-4
Quote:
Originally Posted by dillon134 View Post
Anybody know what the guage is of the OEM positive battery cable?
Use a drill index to find the diameter of the stripped cable, and compare it to the chart ~1/3 down this page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge
Quote:
Originally Posted by dillon134 View Post
...these POS.
The one you linked isn't OE for these trucks. It looks like a much-newer design, and probably for a car or small SUV.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 79jasper View Post
I won't say to do it or not to do it, but some just buy welding cable.
Welding cable bears that designation merely because it's made of finer strands, so it's easier to bend by hand - that makes it more-suitable for a welder to manipulate the electrode. And the insulation is more cut- & abrasion-resistant, to tolerate being walked or rolled on. Otherwise, it's just high-quality wire.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Steve83 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-27-2017, 12:41 PM
Senior Member
 
79jasper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,616
My Photos: (0)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Oh, I know why it's thinner strand. Lol
How do you feel about crimped then soldered? Heard of people doing that also.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

1994 F350 7.3 PSD 4X4 ZF5 DUALLY
PHP HYDRA, 6637, 3-4 DP TO STRAIGHT 4 BEHIND THE TIRE, 1.0 EXHAUST HOUSING, DIY D66 TURBO, FUGA E-FUEL, EBPV DELETE. Cooper discoverer AT/3'S.

2010 VW JETTA TDI DSG Kerma tune. Hankook ventus v2 concept 2.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
79jasper is offline  
post #33 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-27-2017, 02:14 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Shenandoah, VA
Posts: 704
My Photos: (0)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcticDriver View Post
KCastle,
You appear to be missing one green felt ;-)

So are the cables original and only the terminals new? Or did he build the entire length new?
The cables between the two batteries, and the battery to the engine ground are all new. The cable is 2/0 AWG welding cable.

2000 Excursion 7.3L Diesel 4x4, BTS Tranny, AFE intake,Stage1 Single Shot Injectors , GTP38R turbo, EBV delete, 6 position TS chip, Adrenaline HPOP
kcastle is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #34 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-27-2017, 02:16 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Shenandoah, VA
Posts: 704
My Photos: (0)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by dillon134 View Post
That looks like a great setup. I'd like to just replace the terminal ends and reuse the current cable but assume I'd have to purchase a hydraulic assisted crimper to ensure a good connection.
The crimper I used is a manual crimper. TEMCo Lug Crimper Tool TH0012 - 8 AWG - 0000 AWG(4/0) DIELESS Indent

2000 Excursion 7.3L Diesel 4x4, BTS Tranny, AFE intake,Stage1 Single Shot Injectors , GTP38R turbo, EBV delete, 6 position TS chip, Adrenaline HPOP
kcastle is offline  
post #35 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-27-2017, 02:25 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Shenandoah, VA
Posts: 704
My Photos: (0)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve83 View Post
Those are cheap batteries, and the stack of ring terminals on that positive clamp is a poor connection. Look at how the current has to flow between the big red cable at the far Left, and that positive battery post:
-cable
-crimped ring
-bolt OR tiny ring to the other big ring
-clamp
-post

Every one of those joints is subject to corrosion because it's exposed to the atmosphere (which can include Oxygen, rain, engine fluids, battery acid...).
It would seem I have a really crappy batteries and battery setup. It just happens to start every time for some reason.

All the connectors and wire were fluxed, swaged on, and soldered. Then they were covered in adhesive heat shrink. The entire terminal is covered in superlube anti-corrosion gel. I do agree that I forgot to clean end ends this past fall. There may be a small amount of loss with the ring terminals stacked, but everything is very serviceable.

2000 Excursion 7.3L Diesel 4x4, BTS Tranny, AFE intake,Stage1 Single Shot Injectors , GTP38R turbo, EBV delete, 6 position TS chip, Adrenaline HPOP
kcastle is offline  
post #36 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-30-2017, 01:30 PM
Senior Member
 
Steve83's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Memphis, TN 38133, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Posts: 1,703
My Photos: (0)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by 79jasper View Post
How do you feel about crimped then soldered?
I feel it's counterproductive, and a waste of a good solder terminal plus an inch of each wire.

What possible benefit can there be to crimping a good solder joint? The solder is mechanically stronger than the crimp (by a WIDE margin). And crimping doesn't improve the electrical connection over solder. All it does is prevent the joint from being separated; the terminal can never be emptied & reused, and the wire can't be removed without cutting some off.

So what can you even hope to gain from it?

I've heard people argue that "if it gets hot, the crimp will keep the wire from dropping out". Maybe. But there will still be liquid solder running out, shorting other things & maybe even setting them on fire.

And if any of my soldered terminals ever gets hot enough to melt the solder, I WANT the wire to fall out. Maybe it'll break the circuit before the terminal catches fire, or the battery explodes. If there's THAT much current flowing, and THAT much resistance at that terminal, keeping them together is NOT helpful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcastle View Post
It just happens to start every time for some reason.
The reason is that they haven't had enough time to corrode to the point of you noticing the problem. But they will...
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcastle View Post
Then they were covered in adhesive heat shrink.
Why? It's strictly cosmetic - it has no function (IN THIS APPLICATION). The solder seals liquids out of the wire strands, and the ring terminal is still exposed. So the heat-shrink doesn't seal or insulate anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcastle View Post
The entire terminal is covered in superlube anti-corrosion gel.
The only places that matter are where the rings touch other metal. But if they weren't shiny-clean before you applied the gel, you aren't protecting anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcastle View Post
...everything is very serviceable.
Solder is, too. But it doesn't age like a stack of rings does. And it has less resistance. And it costs less. And it takes less time to make, or repair.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Steve83; 12-30-2017 at 01:33 PM.
Steve83 is offline  
post #37 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-30-2017, 03:37 PM
Senior Member
 
79jasper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,616
My Photos: (0)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Just curious. Lol
If it was properly crimped, you wouldn't get any solder into the joint anyways.
I've heard all sides of crimped vs soldered vs both.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

1994 F350 7.3 PSD 4X4 ZF5 DUALLY
PHP HYDRA, 6637, 3-4 DP TO STRAIGHT 4 BEHIND THE TIRE, 1.0 EXHAUST HOUSING, DIY D66 TURBO, FUGA E-FUEL, EBPV DELETE. Cooper discoverer AT/3'S.

2010 VW JETTA TDI DSG Kerma tune. Hankook ventus v2 concept 2.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
79jasper is offline  
post #38 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-30-2017, 04:04 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 786
My Photos: (0)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve83 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 79jasper View Post
How do you feel about crimped then soldered?
I feel it's counterproductive, and a waste of a good solder terminal plus an inch of each wire.

What possible benefit can there be to crimping a good solder joint? The solder is mechanically stronger than the crimp (by a WIDE margin). And crimping doesn't improve the electrical connection over solder. All it does is prevent the joint from being separated; the terminal can never be emptied & reused, and the wire can't be removed without cutting some off.

So what can you even hope to gain from it?

I've heard people argue that "if it gets hot, the crimp will keep the wire from dropping out". Maybe. But there will still be liquid solder running out, shorting other things & maybe even setting them on fire.

And if any of my soldered terminals ever gets hot enough to melt the solder, I WANT the wire to fall out. Maybe it'll break the circuit before the terminal catches fire, or the battery explodes. If there's THAT much current flowing, and THAT much resistance at that terminal, keeping them together is NOT helpful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcastle View Post
It just happens to start every time for some reason.
The reason is that they haven't had enough time to corrode to the point of you noticing the problem. But they will...
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcastle View Post
Then they were covered in adhesive heat shrink.
Why? It's strictly cosmetic - it has no function (IN THIS APPLICATION). The solder seals liquids out of the wire strands, and the ring terminal is still exposed. So the heat-shrink doesn't seal or insulate anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcastle View Post
The entire terminal is covered in superlube anti-corrosion gel.
The only places that matter are where the rings touch other metal. But if they weren't shiny-clean before you applied the gel, you aren't protecting anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcastle View Post
...everything is very serviceable.
Solder is, too. But it doesn't age like a stack of rings does. And it has less resistance. And it costs less. And it takes less time to make, or repair.
I feel that crimped is much better but I still haven't finished reading this post so I may change my mind in an hour or so ;-)
dillon134 is offline  
post #39 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-30-2017, 05:35 PM
Senior Member
 
Steve83's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Memphis, TN 38133, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Posts: 1,703
My Photos: (0)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by 79jasper View Post
If it was properly crimped, you wouldn't get any solder into the joint anyways.
Assuming you could get a perfect crimp (which I doubt), you'd still have needlessly ruined a solderable terminal & an inch of wire(s). If you were planning on soldering all along, you gain nothing by crimping first.

But if you're assuming a perfect crimp, why waste the solder? The added strength? Only if you plan to lift the battery by the cables, frequently.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Steve83 is offline  
post #40 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-31-2017, 03:53 AM
Lifetime Supporting Member
 
ArcticDriver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Longmont, CO
Posts: 3,722
My Photos: (0)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by JB4LCM View Post
I was replacing both batteries in my 04 excursion (6.0) this afternoon> The positive terminal on the passenger side was badly corroded and when I tried to lift it off the battery the positive cable coming from the driver side that is crimped into the terminal just snapped off.
Hold your fire boys. Cease fire.

My question is which method, crimp or solder, would have benefitted the OP more?

It sounds like even if the crimp was performed correctly when new that the corrosion resulted in the cable strands disintegrating and this resulted in the crimp no longer having a tight grip.

Would the same have occured with a solder? Would a wire strand encapsulated in solder be safe from corrosion?

OK...you can start shooting again.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
2002 F-250 4x4 CC SB 7.3 PSD w/4R100. 182,000 miles.
NOS Black CPS. ScanGauge-II, AIC, Bilstein 5100, Stancor GPR, Marinco Mod, B&W Turnover Ball, Michelin Defender LTX


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
2002 F-250 4x4 SC LB 7.3 PSD w/ZF-6. 177,000 miles.
NOS Black CPS. ScanGauge-II. Bilstein 5100. Stancor GPR. Walker BTM. Noco Mod. Michelin Defender LTX 285/75/16.

SOLD:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
2000 F-250 4x4 SC SB 7.3 PSD w/4R100. 164,000 miles.
NOS Black CPS. Rebuilt Fuel bowl w/gold spring, 6.0 Cooler, Walker BTM, Stancor GPR, Michelin LTX M&S2.
ArcticDriver is offline  
post #41 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-31-2017, 10:49 AM
Senior Member
 
chuckster57's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Central Valley, Ca.
Posts: 17,604
My Photos: (7)
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcticDriver View Post
Hold your fire boys. Cease fire.

My question is which method, crimp or solder, would have benefitted the OP more?

It sounds like even if the crimp was performed correctly when new that the corrosion resulted in the cable strands disintegrating and this resulted in the crimp no longer having a tight grip.

Would the same have occured with a solder? Would a wire strand encapsulated in solder be safe from corrosion?

OK...you can start shooting again.
The problem isn't that one method is superior to the other, but rather the need to continue a "I'm right, your wrong" discussion. I have crimped NUMEROUS battery cables over the years and have had the battery fail long before the connection corroded. This includes autos and RV's. Unless someone can post FACTS from an INDEPENDANT source, I say they are both good to go....Lets leave it there.
79jasper and stumpman like this.

1994 F-350 7.3 IDI Turbo, crew cab, E4OD,4:10 L/S, LB, Dually
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

ATS Turbo upgrades: 3" DP with 3" exhaust Magnaflow XL muffler:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

2012 Copper Canyon 273 FWRET w/2 slides, Air Lift 5000 bags
Pillar pod: Autometer C2 Series gauges: pyro,trans, boost, water, oil pressure
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Hypermax Cowl induction, K&N air filter, flex-a-lite 26K trans cooler with fan,Tekonsha prodigy
Train Horns:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


PM please not visitor message
chuckster57 is offline  
post #42 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-31-2017, 11:32 AM
Senior Member
 
79jasper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,616
My Photos: (0)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Searching the interwebs, it seems soldering is not recommended for battery cables.
Most times, the strands break at the edge of the solder. (Now this could be a case of operator error)
So I would say, if you don't have the right setup to solder them, then just crimp it.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

1994 F350 7.3 PSD 4X4 ZF5 DUALLY
PHP HYDRA, 6637, 3-4 DP TO STRAIGHT 4 BEHIND THE TIRE, 1.0 EXHAUST HOUSING, DIY D66 TURBO, FUGA E-FUEL, EBPV DELETE. Cooper discoverer AT/3'S.

2010 VW JETTA TDI DSG Kerma tune. Hankook ventus v2 concept 2.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
79jasper is offline  
post #43 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-31-2017, 12:24 PM
Senior Member
 
Steve83's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Memphis, TN 38133, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Posts: 1,703
My Photos: (0)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
I didn't realize we were shooting. I was just trying to thoroughly answer what he axed me.

Corrosion can only affect a surface exposed to something corrosive. Solder adheres to Copper, effectively becoming a new surface. Crimping merely mashes the surfaces together, but all those surfaces are still exposed to air, water, battery acid, and everything else in the atmosphere around them. Water & acid will wick into a crimp; they can't wick into solder.

Yes, solder reduces the flexible length of cable. But if the cable is pre-bent before soldering to the shape it needs to be (as that photo album shows), that doesn't add any stress to the soldered cable, and it doesn't break.

The only setup needed is a common propane torch.
79jasper and ArcticDriver like this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Steve83 is offline  
post #44 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-31-2017, 02:50 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Chugiak Alaska
Posts: 4,585
My Photos: (8)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
I built/repaired several battery cables with new ends. I use solder on the and use HD heat shrink, I do not have a crimper so solder is easy choice for me. One set of cables have 15 years on them with no problems. Just one more thing to stir the pot is how corrosive is the flux and what effect will it have on the copper wire not covered with solder?
DENNY

Early 1999 F350 AUTO 4x4 CC LB DRW 4.10 6.0 trans cooler, Front hitch, 2,000 hubs/ brakes, Bilstein shocks/steering stabilizer, Diesel site coolant filter 203 thermostat, EBV delete, new O-rings, new Oil cooler, RIFF RAFF FRX, Glow plug led, Pillar gauges, Lighted cupholder, Painless wiring fuze block, Harpoon/hutch mods, Removed axle blocks. Air bags, 5 wheel hitch, In bed 7 pin plug. Spare tire key delete. KLHANSEN on speed dial. 75,000 as of May 2019
DENNY is offline  
post #45 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-31-2017, 03:33 PM
Senior Member
 
Steve83's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Memphis, TN 38133, USA, Earth, Milky Way
Posts: 1,703
My Photos: (0)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
That would depend on the flux. If you're talking about rosin-core electrical solder, it's NOT corrosive to Copper - that's why it's used. But if you're talking about MISusing acid-core plumbing or structural solder on Copper wire - sure, it's corrosive.
DENNY and ArcticDriver like this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Steve83 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Diesel Forum - TheDieselStop.com > Ford Diesels > Power Stroke Excursions

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Diesel Forum - TheDieselStop.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome