'2000 E350 orifice tube location, questions - Diesel Forum - TheDieselStop.com
E-Series Vans Technical discussion of topics related to vans powered by any of the Navistar engines. This covers a broad number of years, but there isn't enough demand to split it any further.

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post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-01-2016, 03:56 PM Thread Starter
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'2000 E350 orifice tube location, questions

Getting ready to rebuild the A/C system. Dual AC.
260,000 on the clutch/compressor, head pressure is high, stuff plugging up orifice tube, probably.
Have most of the parts, except the rear (auxiliary) A/C expansion valve, and a clutch cycle switch, (just replacing as a PM).
Donít know why Ford used an Orifice tube in the front evaporator, and an expansion valve in the rear evaporator.
Anyway, two questions:
Am I going to find the Orifice tube where the black circle is?
There are indentations pressed into the tube there. Tube goes into the front evaporator.


Question #2 is the PAG oil capacity of the rear evaporator. Canít find anything in the shop manual about the amount of oil to add to the rear evaporator. Manual does give a number for the front evaporator, just use that number for the rear?
Thanks,
Frank
(it is almost 90 degrees here today, Dec-1 !!!)

2000 E350, I ordered it from the factory, new. Dual A/C, XLT Super Duty trim, 3.55 limited slip, trailer tow class IV package, dual alternators,
speed control/tilt wheel, HD4R100 installed @203k miles, B&M cast pan,
Dahl 100 fuel filter, deleted stock fuel bowl drain valve (leaker),
replaced turbo pedestal w/ non-EBPV, deleted AIH. Bilstein shocks. Jensen VX7021 Navigation receiver, Garmin 65W dash cam
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post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-02-2016, 10:19 AM
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That is the orifice tube location just spray BP blaster on the nuts there. I had to buy a new one because couldn't get it off. Ford did the orifice in the front because it will have the same pressure applied to the expansion valve. Oil in the rear unit call ford because I can't find it either in my shop books

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post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-02-2016, 11:01 AM
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I probably wouldn't add oil, unless you had a leak that was on the lower portion of the piping & noticed dripping , which would still be minimal. There are some recharge cans with some oil in them, if you think you must add a bit. When you say rear system, the oil does not stay back there & is part of the front system & travels trough-out entire system. The oil lubricates the compressor, and too much can cause less cooling & way too much, can lock up compressor. If you change out compressor, or condenser, or evap & clear out lines, then I would seek oil refill capacities. By the way Autozone now has vacuum pump loaner to evacuate system before recharging. Which to me, is really important, I even pass thru some freon after a few hours of vac to help push/flush out any moisture contaminates, & vacuum again. (this was passed on to me from my father-in-law who was a master ac mechanic.)

1999 E350 7.3psd , XLT , 15 pass/ext , purchased 6/6/05 w/255k on odo, 8/05 added BTM/straight pipe,5/06 BTS,1"shimmed front coil springs,Michelin XPS 235/85 16 R.,FredGroeske2"rear wheel spacers,1-1/2" rear sway bar,AIC,3 A-pillar guages, Tekonsha envoy,coolant filter,4 pos dp-tuner,In-tank mod & harpooned,dahl-100 prepumpfilter,Scan-guage,Bilstein shocks.
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post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-02-2016, 12:52 PM
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Yes on #1 and #2 - The system has a total oil charge specification. General rule of thumb is to drain and measure the oil from whatever component you are replacing and add the same amount of new, clean oil to the component or the system while charging the refrigerant. If you had a system with a leak you might just add an ounce or two to the system because there is no way to measure what is in all of the other components and typically, not a lot of oil is lost with many leaks but in my experience, compressors can leak a lot of oil, especially when they blow apart. The exception is when you are replacing and or flushing everything. The compressor is the only component that absolutely must have oil added to it when being replaced.


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post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-02-2016, 04:17 PM Thread Starter
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The AC works (did not fail yet), just not very cold & high head pressure, so Iím rebuilding it before it gets worse.
Iím trying to follow the shop manual, draining the old compressor and receiver/dryer oil and measuring the amounts.
But I canít do that for the evaporators or condenser, so just going with the manual PAG ounces there.
I normally flush every hose, evaporator and the condenser, front to back, and then back to front, with Four Seasons DURA-II.

Thanks,
Frank

2000 E350, I ordered it from the factory, new. Dual A/C, XLT Super Duty trim, 3.55 limited slip, trailer tow class IV package, dual alternators,
speed control/tilt wheel, HD4R100 installed @203k miles, B&M cast pan,
Dahl 100 fuel filter, deleted stock fuel bowl drain valve (leaker),
replaced turbo pedestal w/ non-EBPV, deleted AIH. Bilstein shocks. Jensen VX7021 Navigation receiver, Garmin 65W dash cam
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post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-03-2016, 09:03 AM
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Sounds like you have it pretty well covered then.

The only place you are going to get debris from is a failing compressor or a blown out desiccant bag in the receiver drier. The orifice tube and the expansion valve will catch most of the debris.


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post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-04-2016, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tcnofh1 View Post
The AC works (did not fail yet), just not very cold & high head pressure...
That CAN be caused simply by a blocked condenser. Have you ever pressure-washed yours? DON'T. This shows how to straighten the fins:



This shows what can happen to heat-exchangers:



This shows an easy way to tell if a heat exchanger has blockage:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tcnofh1 View Post
..so I’m rebuilding it before it gets worse.
That usually makes it worse.Try the inexpensive non-invasive repairs first.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcnofh1 View Post
I’m trying to follow the shop manual...
It explains the oil: use the total quantity specified (MINUS the oil that's still in the system) divided equally among the major components being replaced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcnofh1 View Post
...just going with the manual PAG ounces there.
There is no spec in the manual for each component because - like the refrigerant - the oil moves through the system. You don't see "10 oz of HFC134a in the condenser", do you? What manual are you using?


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Last edited by Steve83; 12-04-2016 at 11:27 AM.
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post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-04-2016, 12:39 PM Thread Starter
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Hi Steve,
Thanks for the reminder to clean the evaporators, I’m sure they need it after 16 years and 260k miles!
My old brain would have probably forgotten, I have been doing mechanical work since 1959, and most cars back then did not even have AC.
But the computers were much simpler
What I usually find on an AC system that has had this much use is particles of debris collecting in the Orifice tube screen thus restricting flow.
Same deal with the expansion valve, there is a very tiny opening that the freon froth is pushed through to flash into gas, and that opening gets plugged up too.

I use these manuals, very handy:


I get them from Service Manuals, Owner Manuals, Wiring Diagrams, Service Bulletins - Helm Incorporated

Here is some of the oil refill info in the manuals:




Frank
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2000 E350, I ordered it from the factory, new. Dual A/C, XLT Super Duty trim, 3.55 limited slip, trailer tow class IV package, dual alternators,
speed control/tilt wheel, HD4R100 installed @203k miles, B&M cast pan,
Dahl 100 fuel filter, deleted stock fuel bowl drain valve (leaker),
replaced turbo pedestal w/ non-EBPV, deleted AIH. Bilstein shocks. Jensen VX7021 Navigation receiver, Garmin 65W dash cam
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post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-04-2016, 07:03 PM
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I can see adding the recommended oil for replacement of evaps or condensers, drier, or compressor, but an orifice? If I didn't see a measurable amount of oil coming out, I wouldn't add any, when doing the orifice. my .02

1999 E350 7.3psd , XLT , 15 pass/ext , purchased 6/6/05 w/255k on odo, 8/05 added BTM/straight pipe,5/06 BTS,1"shimmed front coil springs,Michelin XPS 235/85 16 R.,FredGroeske2"rear wheel spacers,1-1/2" rear sway bar,AIC,3 A-pillar guages, Tekonsha envoy,coolant filter,4 pos dp-tuner,In-tank mod & harpooned,dahl-100 prepumpfilter,Scan-guage,Bilstein shocks.
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post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-07-2016, 03:37 AM
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You're taking those out of context.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SECTION 412-00: Climate Control System - General Information 2000 E-Series Workshop Manual GENERAL PROCEDURES Procedure revision date: 06/22/1999
Refrigerant Oil Adding
CAUTION: During normal A/C operation, oil is circulated through the system with the refrigerant, and a small amount is retained in each component. If certain components of the system are removed, some of the refrigerant oil will go with the component. To maintain the original total oil charge, it is necessary to compensate for the oil lost by adding oil to the system with the new part.

NOTE: Service A/C compressors are shipped without compressor oil.

1. Rotate the A/C compressor shaft six to eight revolutions while collecting oil in a clean measuring device.
- If the amount of oil drained from the old A/C compressor is between 85-142 ml (3-5 ounces), pour the same amount plus 30 ml (1 ounce) of PAG Refrigerant Compressor Oil (R-134a Systems) F7AZ-19589-DA (Motorcraft YN-12-C) or equivalent meeting Ford specification WSH-M1C231-B into the new A/C compressor.
- If the amount of oil that was removed from the old A/C compressor is greater than 142 ml (5 ounces), pour the same amount drained of clean PAG Refrigerant Compressor Oil (R-134a Systems) F7AZ-19589-DA (Motorcraft YN-12-C) or equivalent meeting Ford specification WSH-M1C231-B into the new A/C compressor.
- If the amount of oil that was removed from the old A/C compressor is less than 85 ml (3 ounces), pour 85 ml (3 ounces) of clean PAG Refrigerant Compressor Oil (R-134a Systems) (Motorcraft YN-12-C), F7AZ-19589-DA or equivalent meeting Ford specification WSH-M1C231-B into the new A/C compressor.

2. For the suction accumulator/drier, drill two 1/2 inch holes in the suction accumulator/drier cylinder and drain the oil into a calibrated container.
Add a quantity of new oil to match that drained from the old suction accumulator/drier plus 60 ml (2 ounces) of clean PAG Refrigerant Compressor Oil (R-134a Systems) F7AZ-19589-DA (Motorcraft YN-12-C) or equivalent meeting Ford specification WSH-M1C231-B.

3. For the A/C evaporator core, add 89 ml (3 ounces) of clean PAG Refrigerant Compressor Oil (R-134a Systems) F7AZ-19589-DA (Motorcract YN-12-C) or equivalent meeting Ford specification WSH-M1C231-B to the suction accumulator/drier inlet tube.

4. For the A/C condenser core, add 30 ml (1 ounce) of clean PAG Refrigerant Compressor Oil (R-134a Systems) F7AZ-19589-DA (Motorcraft YN-12-C) or equivalent meeting Ford specification WSH-M1C231-B to the A/C condenser core or the suction accumulator/drier inlet tube.

5. Add 60 ml (2 ounces) of clean PAG Refrigerant Compressor Oil (R-134a Systems) F7AZ-19589-DA (Motorcraft YN-12-C) or equivalent meeting Ford specification WSH-M1C231-B to the suction accumulator/drier inlet tube when carrying out each of the following repairs:
installation of a new A/C evaporator core orifice
installation of a newA/C compressor pressure relief valve (19D644)
installation of a new refrigerant line
repair of an O-ring seal leak
repair of a charge port leak

6. Installation of new components that do not require discharge of refrigerant and resulting oil loss, such as the A/C cycling switch and the A/C pressure transducer, do not require additional oil.
Those specs are if you ONLY change that one part, but you're doing the whole system. So if you read 412-00: General Procedures: Evac & Recharge, step 6 says to use the specified quantity of oil for the system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SECTION 412-00: Climate Control System - General Information 2000 E-Series Workshop Manual SPECIFICATIONS Procedure revision date: 06/22/1999
Lubricant
PAG Refrigerant Compressor Oil (R-134a Systems) F7AZ-19589-DA (Motorcraft YN-12-C)
WSH-M1C231-B
Capacity ml (oz) without auxiliary 266 (9)
Capacity ml (oz) with auxiliary 384 (13)
Rubber Suspension Insulator Lube E25Y-19553-A ESF-M99B112-A
Refrigerant
R-134a Refrigerant Oil YN-19 WSH-M17B19-A
Capacity kg (oz) without auxiliary 1.47 (52)
Capacity kg (oz) with auxiliary 1.81 (64)
So if you take your photos out of context, you'd end up with 6oz of oil instead of the specified 9 in a front-only system; and only 9 instead of 13 in a front&rear system.

The correct procedure is to divide the total oil charge among the major components. But you'd be MUCH better-off paying a pro to do it because this is just one example of how a novice with the best manual can still make big mistakes.


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post #11 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-07-2016, 05:08 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks Steve, that helps!
I'm retired, and like doing this kind of work, rather than paying someone.
And even crazier, I am replacing the home heat pump myself too!
I have built and rebuilt R-22 systems, first time working with R-410, so anything can happen!!!

2000 E350, I ordered it from the factory, new. Dual A/C, XLT Super Duty trim, 3.55 limited slip, trailer tow class IV package, dual alternators,
speed control/tilt wheel, HD4R100 installed @203k miles, B&M cast pan,
Dahl 100 fuel filter, deleted stock fuel bowl drain valve (leaker),
replaced turbo pedestal w/ non-EBPV, deleted AIH. Bilstein shocks. Jensen VX7021 Navigation receiver, Garmin 65W dash cam
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post #12 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-31-2016, 06:43 PM Thread Starter
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Took out the orifice tube today.
260,000+ miles, it is the original.
No wonder the AC worked so poorly, and the pressure is too high!



I put in a new one, will see how the AC does now.
If needed, I have all the parts to rebuild the entire AC system on the van, but would like to see if this simple fix buys me some time.
No idea how much longer the original compressor and clutch will last.
Frank

2000 E350, I ordered it from the factory, new. Dual A/C, XLT Super Duty trim, 3.55 limited slip, trailer tow class IV package, dual alternators,
speed control/tilt wheel, HD4R100 installed @203k miles, B&M cast pan,
Dahl 100 fuel filter, deleted stock fuel bowl drain valve (leaker),
replaced turbo pedestal w/ non-EBPV, deleted AIH. Bilstein shocks. Jensen VX7021 Navigation receiver, Garmin 65W dash cam
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post #13 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-31-2016, 08:29 PM
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Good job! Was orifice located where you thought it was?Now I'm wishing I would have changed mine when I fixed a leak & changed dryer. Let us know if it cools better. I might be tempted to do mine also.
on edit; wonder what that stuff is ? on the screen. desiccant media from dryer?

1999 E350 7.3psd , XLT , 15 pass/ext , purchased 6/6/05 w/255k on odo, 8/05 added BTM/straight pipe,5/06 BTS,1"shimmed front coil springs,Michelin XPS 235/85 16 R.,FredGroeske2"rear wheel spacers,1-1/2" rear sway bar,AIC,3 A-pillar guages, Tekonsha envoy,coolant filter,4 pos dp-tuner,In-tank mod & harpooned,dahl-100 prepumpfilter,Scan-guage,Bilstein shocks.

Last edited by bork; 12-31-2016 at 08:32 PM.
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post #14 of 16 (permalink) Old 01-01-2017, 06:39 AM Thread Starter
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I'll bet you are right about the pieces of ??? on the screen, can't think of anything else in the system that would produce it.
Today the weather here is supposed to be in the 80's, so I'll charge this dual-ac system (4lbs of R134a) and see what happens w/ the cooling.

2000 E350, I ordered it from the factory, new. Dual A/C, XLT Super Duty trim, 3.55 limited slip, trailer tow class IV package, dual alternators,
speed control/tilt wheel, HD4R100 installed @203k miles, B&M cast pan,
Dahl 100 fuel filter, deleted stock fuel bowl drain valve (leaker),
replaced turbo pedestal w/ non-EBPV, deleted AIH. Bilstein shocks. Jensen VX7021 Navigation receiver, Garmin 65W dash cam
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post #15 of 16 (permalink) Old 01-01-2017, 09:23 AM
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We had a lot of desiccant bag failures around the 2004-2007 model year range in F-series trucks and Excursions but I don't recall there being a problem with the E-Series but I would never count it out. Looking at that picture it looks more like it was rolling around on the floor judging by the various colors and consistency of the debris. Usually when the desiccant material ends up on the orifice tube it is a loose, grainy and almost fluffy consistency after scraping it off and is a gray/green color. The green I always assumed came from the UV tracer dye in the system which pretty much every Ford system from that time did. I have pictures somewhere in my archives. But if the system has been operating for a considerable amount of time with that debris floating around it is likely there is damage to the compressor as well which would explain the various pieces of debris. With compressor failures the debris us typically dark gray or black possibly mixed with a few erroneous metal or odd looking pieces. In either case, the receiver and the compress or would require replacement and the rest of the system components can be flushed if you have the equipment or replaced if you don't.


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Last edited by ford_doctor; 01-01-2017 at 09:41 AM.
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