The Continuing Saga of My Truck - Diesel Forum - TheDieselStop.com
6.0L Power Stroke Engine and Drivetrain Discussion of the 6.0L Power Stroke diesel engine and drivetrain in the 2003-Up Super Duties and Excursions. No gas engine discussion allowed except on transmissions and drivetrain that pertain to all models. Please confine discussion of topics in this forum to those items that are specific to the 6.0L Power Stroke engine.

 
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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-06-2018, 11:07 PM Thread Starter
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The Continuing Saga of My Truck

Greetings one and all,


The pickup in my signature is acting up again.


I posted back in May about having the injectors replaced, new Garrett turbo, new ARP head studs, and EGR cooler delete.


Well, there is more to the story. After I got everything replaced above, the truck seemed to be running fine. However, after about 2 days of driving it, it started to smoke black smoke when taking off from a red light, stop sign. It got to where it was smoking so bad it would bog down and almost die. I took it back to my mechanic and he replaced the EGR valve. He didn't charge me for the labor just the new EGR valve because he intended to change that out when he did the other work. Truck ran like it was new. Gave it back to me and everything was cool.


The next day I got in the truck and made it to my neighbor's driveway approximately 100 feet up the road. The thing spit, sputtered and klunked and then died. I went home and got the Excursion and a tow strap, came back, and just for kicks tried the engine. IT STARTED! It still klunked and spit and sputtered, but, I was able to get it back to my garage. I called my mechanic and this time, he came over to my house, I gave him the key and it started and ran perfect. I apologized to him profusely for bothering him and said I was going to schedule a session with my psychiatrist, because I felt like I was losing it! He said that wouldn't be necessary and he plugged his diagnostic box into the truck and said he would leave it plugged in and for me to drive it and it would record anything abnormal.


The next day, I got in the truck and made it about 1/2 mile up the road this time and it died. I kept trying to start it and finally it did start and ran rough. I made it back home and on the way home it started to run good. Well, maybe this thing has cleared up. I turned around and drove about 20 miles to a neighboring town and had breakfast. I had some business at the local Ford dealer about something unrelated to my truck, got in and started the engine. About 1/2 way home, it started acting up again. I had the accelerator to the floor and it wouldn't maintain 70 mph. Finally, I turned into a side road and it just died again. I was still 5 miles from home. I started walking and a neighbor spotted me and gave me a ride home. Got a buddy and went back with the Excursion and flat towed it home. It started again, so, I had steering and brakes and the transmission was in drive. We got it home and I called my mechanic and he came with his trailer and took it to his shop.


He said that the Cam Position Sensor and the Crank Position Sensor are not "syncing-up". It was throwing codes to that effect.


Is he feeding me a line of bull? Should I wave the B/S flag? Thanks for your reply, Craig.

2005 F-350 Superduty, 4X4, 6.0 diesel, sc, srw, lariat, B&W Turnover hitch, tow command, red.
2005 Excursion Eddie Bauer, 4X4, 6.0 diesel, 2nd row buckets, all the bells and whistles, Ford 30mm rear anti-sway bar, true blue/arizona beige.


Last edited by lvsqcsl; 08-06-2018 at 11:09 PM.
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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-07-2018, 07:03 AM
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You absolutely need a scan tool and/or gauges to own a 6.0L. Even more so, you have to have a scan tool and code reader to troubleshoot. The ForScan download for your cell phone is a very good scan tool and it reads codes very well. You can get an add free version for $10 IIRC and then you need an ELM327 adapter (WiFi for an i-phone). The Torque Pro app is good for Android with a bluetooth ELM327 adapter.

I believe your mechanic. You must have cam/crank sync before you can start. You also need FICM sync. Those are some of the first parameters that you look for when troubleshooting. That said, there are numerous causes of not having sync, and you need more information to nail it down. Hopefully there are codes stored to give you a clue.

Sounds like an electrical glitch to me, but that doesn't narrow it down much.

Wire Chafing Locations (Closely inspect wiring when you have injector DTCs):
- "Upper left valve cover or valve cover stud near the FICM or the intake manifold bolts where the harness routes under the air intake hose"
- Left front valve cover hold down bolts/studs
- Exhaust Back Pressure (EBP) sensor bracket at thermostat housing
- Around the thermostat housing and idler pulleys
- Right valve cover at glow plug control module (GPCM) and around the glow plug relay bracket
- Front left of intake manifold near breather tube and air inlet duct
- Around the idler pulley under the thermostat - wiring routed around the power steering pump
- CKP (crank sensor) wiring near A/C compressor and belt tensioner
- Accelerator Pedal pivot point (under dash) at steering column - adjustable pedals only
- PCM harness at battery box
- PCM harness near the relay box brackets at the left rear corner of the engine compartment.
- Wiring to #5 injector. (3rd back passenger side) the heater hose clamp rubs through on the early built units.
- Inspect terminals for "backed-out" or bent pins (FICM, sensors, etc)
- ICP sensor

Monitoring FICM volts is always helpful (FICM MPower, FICM LPOwer, and FICMVPower). These are available with ForScan or the Torque Pro. I would also monitor the v-reference (5V) voltage.

Lastly (probably unrelated to this issue), in a previous thread of yours, fuel pressure was discussed. Did you ever install a fuel pressure gauge? They are very important to have so that you can catch a problem early before it costs you 8 injectors.

Mark
06 F250 CC SB FX4 Lariat;ARP studs;OEM gaskets;Banks exhaust;DynaTrac Ball joints;Coolant filter;High-Idle mod;RACCCV6000;JimmiJammers;Ravelco;SynchroMax xfer case;Fumoto valve;Harpooned;CPOhighwayProducts toolbox;tracrac;Fox Weatherboots;Wet Okole Seat Covers;BriteBox;Re-flashed;Quadzilla Recon XZT Fuel Press;Blue FPR spring;DashDAQ;PHP FICM;RiffRaff boots;DCPower270A XP;PowerInverter;Rancho7000's;BPD EGR cooler;One-piece HPOP fitting;D-plugs&standpipes;BPD Billet WaterPump;SCT w/ Matts SRL+;ELC Ultra;DuraTracs

Last edited by bismic; 08-11-2018 at 08:13 PM.
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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-08-2018, 07:25 AM Thread Starter
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The Continuing Saga of My Truck

Quote:
Originally Posted by bismic View Post
You absolutely need a scan tool and/or gauges to own a 6.0L. Even more so, you have to have a scan tool and code reader to troubleshoot. The ForScan download for your cell phone is a very good scan tool and it reads codes very well. You can get an add free version for $10 IIRC and then you need an ELM327 adapter (WiFi for an i-phone). The Torque Pro app is good for Android with a bluetooth ELM327 adapter.

I believe your mechanic. You must have cam/crank sync before you can start. You also need FICM sync. Those are some of the first parameters that you look for when troubleshooting. That said, there are numerous causes of not having sync, and you need more information to nail it down. Hopefully there are codes stored to give you a clue.

Sounds like an electrical glitch to me, but that doesn't narrow it down much.

Wire Chafing Locations (Closely inspect wiring when you have injector DTCs):
- "Upper left valve cover or valve cover stud near the FICM or the intake manifold bolts where the harness routes under the air intake hose"
- Left front valve cover hold down bolts/studs
- Exhaust Back Pressure (EBP) sensor bracket at thermostat housing
- Around the thermostat housing and idler pulleys
- Right valve cover at glow plug control module (GPCM) and around the glow plug relay bracket
- Front left of intake manifold near breather tube and air inlet duct
- Around the idler pulley under the thermostat - wiring routed around the power steering pump
- CKP (crank sensor) wiring near A/C compressor and belt tensioner
- Accelerator Pedal pivot point (under dash) at steering column - adjustable pedals only
- PCM harness at battery box
- PCM harness near the relay box brackets at the left rear corner of the engine compartment.
- Wiring to #5 injector. (3rd back passenger side) the heater hose clamp rubs through on the early built units.
- Inspect terminals for "backed-out" or bent pins (FICM, sensors, etc)

Monitoring FICM volts is always helpful (FICM MPower, FICM LPOwer, and FICMVPower). These are available with ForScan or the Torque Pro. I would also monitor the v-reference (5V) voltage.

Lastly (probably unrelated to this issue), in a previous thread of yours, fuel pressure was discussed. Did you ever install a fuel pressure gauge? They are very important to have so that you can catch a problem early before it costs you 8 injectors.

I guess I will lower the B/S flag.


I mentioned to my mechanic about the wire chafing issues and he said while he was replacing injectors, turbos, etc. he had checked out the wiring issues. Having done this for many years he told me he as seen it all and is satisfied the wiring is in good shape. BTW, he did look at your list and apparently it is a good one.....


He said he could tell exactly when those sensors got out-of-sync. and suspected that that was the issue, but, wanted the recorder plugged in to confirm. He did install a fuel pressure gauge again and fuel pressure was within spec. FICM voltage was as well.


He said those sensors "change" lengths over time with heating and cooling cycles and with 200,000 miles likely are either bad internally or are unable to pick up a signal consistently. He mentioned a "shim kit" that was used to adjust the distance of the sensor from its exciter, but, those kits aren't used much anymore. (Primarily used on the '03's and '04's.)


Those sensors should be in soon and should cost around $150.00 installed. I hope this fixes it.


I haven't had the truck long enough to install a fuel pressure gauge. I promise I will just as soon as it comes back.


I am wondering how that engine ever ran with all these issues. Thanks for your reply, Craig.

2005 F-350 Superduty, 4X4, 6.0 diesel, sc, srw, lariat, B&W Turnover hitch, tow command, red.
2005 Excursion Eddie Bauer, 4X4, 6.0 diesel, 2nd row buckets, all the bells and whistles, Ford 30mm rear anti-sway bar, true blue/arizona beige.

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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-08-2018, 08:42 AM
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Hadn't heard about a shim kit, but ok.

Most of the time you will get a code if the cam or crank sensor is bad, but not always. They can be tested and even evaluated w/ an oscilloscope. I would have to read up on the specific testing. Maybe a search could help also.

CAMSHAFT SENSOR TROUBLESHOOT PDF:
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/at...4&d=1350773182
CMP/CKP WIRE DIAGRAM PDF
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/at...7&d=1350773292


Here is some general info:

Cam (CMP) / Crank (CKP) troubleshooting:
"PC/ED manual under the Hard Start / No Start Diagnostic section (page 4-18). It states that ""A no rpm signal during a crank can be EITHER the CKP or the CMP"".

Also in the PC/ED manual it states: ""Engine speed is determined by counting 15 windows on the crankshaft gear each crankshaft rotation"" on page 5-68. It goes on to state that ""The PCM uses both the CKP and CMP to calculate the engine speed and piston position"".

Also in the PC/ED it states that the PCM must have a CKP signal for the IPR to move off of 14%.

Also in the PC/ED manual - page 4-26:
No fuel command signal when the ICP, RPM, and VPWR signals are correct usually indicates a loss of CMP signal. Go to PinPoint test V. Fuel PW defaults to 0 with no CMP or CKP signal. The CMP sends the sync signal to the PCM. No Sync while cranking the engine with the ICP, RPM, and VPWR signals correct usually indicates a loss of the CMP or CKP synchronization signal. Without a CKP signal, you should also see 0 fuel pulse width AND the IPR should default to 14%."

The Crank Sensor is responsible for engine speed and crankshaft position. The WSM states that if the tach isn't moving, the crank sensor is likely to have died.
To troubleshoot the ckp sensor: check the resistance between the connector on the PCM Pin 30 (harness side) and Pin 41 (harness side). Resistance should be 300-400 ohms.

Mark
06 F250 CC SB FX4 Lariat;ARP studs;OEM gaskets;Banks exhaust;DynaTrac Ball joints;Coolant filter;High-Idle mod;RACCCV6000;JimmiJammers;Ravelco;SynchroMax xfer case;Fumoto valve;Harpooned;CPOhighwayProducts toolbox;tracrac;Fox Weatherboots;Wet Okole Seat Covers;BriteBox;Re-flashed;Quadzilla Recon XZT Fuel Press;Blue FPR spring;DashDAQ;PHP FICM;RiffRaff boots;DCPower270A XP;PowerInverter;Rancho7000's;BPD EGR cooler;One-piece HPOP fitting;D-plugs&standpipes;BPD Billet WaterPump;SCT w/ Matts SRL+;ELC Ultra;DuraTracs

Last edited by bismic; 08-08-2018 at 08:45 AM.
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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-08-2018, 11:28 AM
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A word of caution: If you have a 6.0L stalling with poor performance issues that is setting codes for both the cam and crank sensor circuits you should record but ignore those codes and continue diagnosis. Low engine idle, erratic idle with misfires and stalling can induce those codes.

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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-08-2018, 12:53 PM
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His issue is sync though - not just the typical P2614 and P2617 codes (at least that is how I read this thread).

(I do wish folks would be more diligent in reading and posting codes)

Mark
06 F250 CC SB FX4 Lariat;ARP studs;OEM gaskets;Banks exhaust;DynaTrac Ball joints;Coolant filter;High-Idle mod;RACCCV6000;JimmiJammers;Ravelco;SynchroMax xfer case;Fumoto valve;Harpooned;CPOhighwayProducts toolbox;tracrac;Fox Weatherboots;Wet Okole Seat Covers;BriteBox;Re-flashed;Quadzilla Recon XZT Fuel Press;Blue FPR spring;DashDAQ;PHP FICM;RiffRaff boots;DCPower270A XP;PowerInverter;Rancho7000's;BPD EGR cooler;One-piece HPOP fitting;D-plugs&standpipes;BPD Billet WaterPump;SCT w/ Matts SRL+;ELC Ultra;DuraTracs
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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-08-2018, 04:43 PM
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Please post the fix!

Mark
06 F250 CC SB FX4 Lariat;ARP studs;OEM gaskets;Banks exhaust;DynaTrac Ball joints;Coolant filter;High-Idle mod;RACCCV6000;JimmiJammers;Ravelco;SynchroMax xfer case;Fumoto valve;Harpooned;CPOhighwayProducts toolbox;tracrac;Fox Weatherboots;Wet Okole Seat Covers;BriteBox;Re-flashed;Quadzilla Recon XZT Fuel Press;Blue FPR spring;DashDAQ;PHP FICM;RiffRaff boots;DCPower270A XP;PowerInverter;Rancho7000's;BPD EGR cooler;One-piece HPOP fitting;D-plugs&standpipes;BPD Billet WaterPump;SCT w/ Matts SRL+;ELC Ultra;DuraTracs
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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-11-2018, 08:03 PM Thread Starter
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Please post the fix!

I would if it were fixed!


The mechanic called and said he had replaced the cam and crank position sensors and the truck was running very well. I called a friend of mine who has a rollback and asked if he would take me to pick the truck. He agreed and we got the truck picked up.


As I was merging onto the interstate, I noticed a semi in the right lane and I thought I could beat him and merge in front of him.


I nailed the go pedal and the transmission downshifted and she was coming on like gangbusters. All of a sudden, it was like someone switched off the ignition. The engine died and would no longer respond to the pedal, so, I quickly shifted to neutral and operated the starter to get the power steering going and was able to steer to the emergency lane.


My friend pulled in front of me with the roll back and we loaded it up and took it back to the mechanic.


He disconnected some sensor thingy attached to the front passenger valve cover and the truck started right up. He is working on it again...... Thanks for your reply, Craig.

2005 F-350 Superduty, 4X4, 6.0 diesel, sc, srw, lariat, B&W Turnover hitch, tow command, red.
2005 Excursion Eddie Bauer, 4X4, 6.0 diesel, 2nd row buckets, all the bells and whistles, Ford 30mm rear anti-sway bar, true blue/arizona beige.

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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-11-2018, 08:08 PM
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Sounds like it might be a bad ICP sensor or wiring harness. It shouldn't stall if the signal drops off, but it will if there is a short in the v-reference circuit. This is why I listed the wiring chafing locations. Seems like it should have thrown a code for this sensor.

Also sounds like he shouldn't charge you for mis-diagnosis on cam and crank sensors.

Looks like Ford_Doctor nailed it again and I missed it.

I assumed the mechanic was data logging and specifically looking at sync and/or v-reference. Instead it looks like he just guessed based on the P2614 and P2617 codes which showed up as a result of the stall instead of being the cause. This is what Ford_Doctor was warning against.

Mark
06 F250 CC SB FX4 Lariat;ARP studs;OEM gaskets;Banks exhaust;DynaTrac Ball joints;Coolant filter;High-Idle mod;RACCCV6000;JimmiJammers;Ravelco;SynchroMax xfer case;Fumoto valve;Harpooned;CPOhighwayProducts toolbox;tracrac;Fox Weatherboots;Wet Okole Seat Covers;BriteBox;Re-flashed;Quadzilla Recon XZT Fuel Press;Blue FPR spring;DashDAQ;PHP FICM;RiffRaff boots;DCPower270A XP;PowerInverter;Rancho7000's;BPD EGR cooler;One-piece HPOP fitting;D-plugs&standpipes;BPD Billet WaterPump;SCT w/ Matts SRL+;ELC Ultra;DuraTracs

Last edited by bismic; 08-11-2018 at 08:21 PM.
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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-11-2018, 08:32 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Sounds like it might be a bad ICP sensor or wiring harness. It shouldn't stall if the signal drops off, but it will if there is a short in the v-reference circuit. This is why I listed the wiring chafing locations. Seems like it should have thrown a code for this sensor.

Also sounds like he shouldn't charge you for mis-diagnosis on cam and crank sensors.

Looks like Ford_Doctor nailed it again and I missed it.

I assumed the mechanic was data logging and specifically looking at sync and/or v-reference. Instead it looks like he just guessed based on the P2614 and P2617 codes which showed up as a result of the stall instead of being the cause. This is what Ford_Doctor was warning against.

The guy just called and said it was a bad ICP sensor. Apparently it has something to do with tricking the FICM into thinking there is oil pressure to run the engine when there isn't, apparently.

Since it wasn't plugged into a box, he doesn't know if the signal was dropped or what. He was specifically looking for sync, however, he said from time to time codes set that aren't reliable, etc. and it is just a crap shoot. He knew it was the ICP sensor when he disconnected it and it started and ran; so says he.


He isn't charging me for the sensors. He said he is just leaving them on and he is calling it a day. He has got a new ICP sensor ordered. It will be in Monday. I hope this fixes it. Thanks for your reply, Craig.

2005 F-350 Superduty, 4X4, 6.0 diesel, sc, srw, lariat, B&W Turnover hitch, tow command, red.
2005 Excursion Eddie Bauer, 4X4, 6.0 diesel, 2nd row buckets, all the bells and whistles, Ford 30mm rear anti-sway bar, true blue/arizona beige.

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post #11 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-13-2018, 04:01 PM Thread Starter
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The guy just called and said it was a bad ICP sensor. Apparently it has something to do with tricking the FICM into thinking there is oil pressure to run the engine when there isn't, apparently.

Since it wasn't plugged into a box, he doesn't know if the signal was dropped or what. He was specifically looking for sync, however, he said from time to time codes set that aren't reliable, etc. and it is just a crap shoot. He knew it was the ICP sensor when he disconnected it and it started and ran; so says he.


He isn't charging me for the sensors. He said he is just leaving them on and he is calling it a day. He has got a new ICP sensor ordered. It will be in Monday. I hope this fixes it. Thanks for your reply, Craig.
Not so fast! Stop the presses. He replaced the ICP sensor, then the truck would start and run for about 30 seconds and then die.

HE ENDED UP TAKING THE WHOLE THING APART AGAIN AND DISCOVERED THAT THE NEW INJECTORS HE HAD JUST INSTALLED WEREN'T TORQUED TO SPECIFICATION. APPARENTLY, DUE TO THIS CONDITION, THERE WAS BACK-COMPRESSION THAT WAS PRESSURIZING THE FUEL SYSTEM. HE DISCOVERED HIS TORQUE WRENCH WAS OUT-OF-SPEC. HE WENT AND GOT A NEW SNAP-ON TORQUE WRENCH TO REPLACE HIS OLD ONE AND PUT EVERYTHING BACK TOGETHER. HE HOOKED HIS GOOSE-NECK TO THE TRUCK AND HAULED UNDER LOAD AND SAID HE IS NOW SATISFIED THE PROBLEM IS SOLVED.

I'll bet after all this crap that I know something about these darn 6.0 engine. Thanks for your reply, Craig.
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post #12 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-13-2018, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by lvsqcsl View Post
The guy just called and said it was a bad ICP sensor. Apparently it has something to do with tricking the FICM into thinking there is oil pressure to run the engine when there isn't, apparently.

Since it wasn't plugged into a box, he doesn't know if the signal was dropped or what. He was specifically looking for sync, however, he said from time to time codes set that aren't reliable, etc. and it is just a crap shoot. He knew it was the ICP sensor when he disconnected it and it started and ran; so says he.


He isn't charging me for the sensors. He said he is just leaving them on and he is calling it a day. He has got a new ICP sensor ordered. It will be in Monday. I hope this fixes it. Thanks for your reply, Craig.
Not so fast! Stop the presses. He replaced the ICP sensor, then the truck would start and run for about 30 seconds and then die.

HE ENDED UP TAKING THE WHOLE THING APART AGAIN AND DISCOVERED THAT THE NEW INJECTORS HE HAD JUST INSTALLED WEREN'T TORQUED TO SPECIFICATION. APPARENTLY, DUE TO THIS CONDITION, THERE WAS BACK-COMPRESSION THAT WAS PRESSURIZING THE FUEL SYSTEM. HE DISCOVERED HIS TORQUE WRENCH WAS OUT-OF-SPEC. HE WENT AND GOT A NEW SNAP-ON TORQUE WRENCH TO REPLACE HIS OLD ONE AND PUT EVERYTHING BACK TOGETHER. HE HOOKED HIS GOOSE-NECK TO THE TRUCK AND HAULED UNDER LOAD AND SAID HE IS NOW SATISFIED THE PROBLEM IS SOLVED.

I'll bet after all this crap that I know something about these darn 6.0 engines. Thanks for your reply, Craig.
Having just cleaned, replaced o-rings and reinstalled 8 injectors, I can say that torquing them is very scary. I was terrified that my wrench was off because it felt like I was over-tightening them. I've experienced the feeling of having a bolt break off in the block because of too much torque. Not fun. I misread the torque numbers on the HPOP cover and one snapped like a twig. I was lucky in that there was enough of the bolt sticking up where I was able to get a vise-grip on it and it threaded itself out...

Glad you are back in business. Safe travels.
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post #13 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-27-2018, 10:19 AM
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Welcome to the club. It's a lousy club to be a member of, trust me. My early build 6.0 has had all the issues yours did/does, and more, and is currently down again with some sort of wiring gremlin causing no starts and leaving me stranded. Replaced 6 CMP's and the pigtail over the last 2 years and it died again yesterday with no CMP/CKP Sync, NO FICM Sync. I now most likely have a main harness issue to deal with. The 6.0 is a terrible engine, and rarely runs well. When it does, it doesn't for long. At a bare minimum, I would recommend you get a Scanguage II and load all the PID Codes you can find to monitor anything and everything on this engine, including CMP/CKP Sync, FICM Sync, EGT, EOT, ECT, VGT, FMP, FLP, ICP, IPR, BAT, VOLT, etc. Learn how to use it and what the acceptable ranges of readings are to help you diagnose all the problems you ARE GOING TO HAVE WITH THIS POS ENGINE. You'll have problems with this engine as long as you own it, trust me. I've been through it all, and then some... I would also suggest getting a laptop and buying/loading AutoEnginuity on it and learning how to use it to further help diagnose upcoming issues you are going to have... Don't believe me..? Search my username (current and previous) for all the problems I've experienced with this POS engine with only 88 k miles on the ODO, starting from day 1 when I parked it in my driveway, and continuing to this very day when it left me stranded yesterday again... My other suggestion would be to cut your losses now, dump the 6.0, and get a 6.7, or look at a Chevy, GMC, or Ram instead...

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Last edited by stevedunham-2; 08-27-2018 at 10:23 AM.
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