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Non-Start Issue

5K views 55 replies 6 participants last post by  bgiebels 
#1 ·
So I just replaced the following parts on my 2005 F350:
4 injectors (2, 4, 6, 8)
IPR

After fighting a non-start I took a fuel pressure reading and found I had no fuel pressure (bad fuel pump).

Replaced the Fuel Pump and installed the blue spring upgrade with adjuster, I now have 60PSI.

Still no start.

I have the Torque Pro App and took the following readings while cranking:
FICM Logic Power = 47.5
ICP Pressure: Over 500
ICP Voltage: .3
FICM Sync: 1
IPR: 83%
FICM V: 48v


I've got the AutoEnginuity Package with Ford Expansion coming this Tuesday. I'll do a BUZZ test on it to see if every injector is operational. I can hear it kick off when I first turn the key to the on position, but not starting it and it sounds good. I'm afraid I may have welded some of the injectors shut while trying to start it without any fuel pumping...


Anything else I should run once I get the AE tester?

Thanks,
 
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#2 ·
ICP voltage indicates you really don't have ICP pressure (or the ICP sensor is bad).

0.3v is essentially the zero point.

0.8v (approximately) is the voltage that corresponds to 500 psig.
 
#3 ·
hmmm, that is going to suck balls Bismic…

I'm going to check the voltage at the icp sensor to see what it is there as opposed to using the torque pro measurement. See if that tells me something different. The Torque pro app takes a while to update while you're cranking and I think the ICP voltage is a calculation you have to enter into the application. while I think I did this correctly, I don't want to rely on that too much.

Thanks for the information... I'll get back to you on the reading I get.
 
#4 ·
I assume you know this but just in case, you can check the ICP sensor just by unplugging it. Check your base oil pressure first - do an extended crank and make sure the dummy gauge comes alive. If you've got base oil pressure just pull the connector on the ICP and see if it starts. I'm gonna guess it won't because I don't think you've got high pressure oil but you won't hurt anything by trying it.
 
#5 ·
The IPR is at 83%, so it looks like an issue in the HPO system.

Have you tried starting w/ the ICP unplugged?
 
#7 ·
That is why you do it (to take a bad ICP out of the picture). It will start on estimated values that the PCM will provide in the absence of a signal, assuming everything else is in good working order.
 
#8 ·
Well, I unplugged it... No Joy! Still didn't start. Looks like I'm going to have a few hours of work once my hernia surgery heals up. I'm not sure what the cost of repair on that would be if someone else did it.. I guess I should check. Maybe it's worth it at this point. After I do the BUZZ test on Tuesday/Wednesday this week I'll make a decision on if I'm going to do the repair or have Ford do it.

Thanks Bismic!
 
#10 ·
Look at the cheap stuff first. Pull the IPR and see if the screen is damaged. If it is look for crud inside the valve. Crud or a bad IPR could cause your symptoms.
 
#11 ·
I've already replaced the IPR. I will say the old IPR didn't look like it was clogged or had any damage.
 
#12 ·
Sorry - I missed that you had replaced the IPR - its right there in front of me in your first post.

Have you pressure tested the HP rails?
 
#13 ·
I haven't pressure tested the HP rails.

This all started about 4 weeks ago when we hit -30 here in Iowa. I found the #6 injector was bad and I changed that and it started up an ran great. I drove it about 45 miles and it started running bad again. I let the Ford Dealership look at it and they found injectors 2 and 4 were also going bad and suggested I put a new Fuel Pressure Regulator on it. I decided to go ahead and replace the IPR at the same time. So I replaced the following last weekend.


Injectors 2, 4, & 8 (Already replaced #6 the weekend before).
IPR
Fuel Pressure Regulator Blue Spring Kit
Fuel Pump, after I found the fuel pump wasn't working.
Air Cleaner

I'm finding it hard to imagine that the rails would cause a no start, when cold, issue as they normally affect hot starts, right?
 
#14 ·
But it is possible, I guess. and I'm assuming to repair the rail leaks is substantially cheaper than the ~800 to fix the HPOP.
 
#15 ·
Its not the rails themselves you are testing. You've got no high pressure oil. That could be from a stuck IPR which is likely ruled out. It could be from a bad HPOP which would be expensive so we'd like to come to that last. Dieseltech Ron says a bad HPOP is pretty unlikely on the 2nd gen 6.0 litre but if you end up at a stealership they may just want to throw parts at you. No HP oil could be from a broken branch tube which would be a huge PITA and probably isn't likely given what you've done but it is possible. It could be from a leaky STC fitting. It could be from bad dummy plug(s) or standpipes (which is actually pretty likely). Its unlikely you've got enough injector cups leaking to keep it from starting at all but that's another possible leak point. If you're going to diagnose as opposed to chucking parts at it then you need to start with an air test.
 
#42 ·
Its not the rails themselves you are testing.
Agreed. I was incorrectly using rails instead of all the parts on the rails (i.e. Injector Cups, Dummy Plugs, Stand Pipe) or one of the permanent plugs that are in the rail.


Having said that... After I put the new ICP on, and put the Glow Plug Control unit back on, I turned the key to the on position, but didn't start the truck, and to my surprise the oil pressure gauge didn't budge. It had before, so I took the oil filter out to see if the reservoir would fill up if I cranked the engine, with the keys out. The oil filled no problem. Must be that the batteries were too low. I put the battery charger on, and took a break for about an hour. I went back out and hooked up my EA scanner. Battery voltage was good so I went ahead and cranked the engine. It took about 20 seconds but the truck started and ran pretty good for about 10 - 20 seconds... then stopped.

Unfortunately, I forgot to put the oil filter back in and I spilled the oil all over the place until the oil got so low the engine shut down...

I'm going to be cleaning up oil for a while but I believe whatever I've done so far has removed the leak and I should be able to button it all back up. Before I do, I'll replace the oil (of course) and start it again and take some readings with the EA and see if there needs to be any injectors replaced on the passenger side before I call it good.

Either way, some progress made.... along with a big mess!

Any suggestions on a decent engine cleaner I should use?

Thanks,
 
#16 · (Edited)
For your 05, the most likely issues are the STC fitting if it is still original, and/or the dummy plugs if they are still original. The dummy plugs can be bad enough to cause a cold no-start. definitely the STC fitting can.

The 05 and up HPOPs do fail occasionally, but certainly not at a great frequency. The branch tubes are highly unlikely to be a problem.

IMO, it is time to leak test the HPO system w/ shop air.

Listen at the oil fill tube and CCV vent opening for the specific oil rail component leaks. Leaks at both would indicate an STC fitting issue IMO.

Listen at the turbo oil drain and the oil filter housing (filter removed) for a failed HPOP.

Since you had fuel pump issues, you should anticipate replacing the passenger injectors at some point in the future.
 
#17 ·
So I had surgery and haven't been able to work on my truck... until today.

I go out, drag my air hose to my truck, get my extension cords laid out, go to take out the ICP to install the test fitting. I put the socket and ratchet on the ICP, give it a little pressure, and do you know what happens? The ICP came apart...

Any advice on how to get the rest of the ICP out?
 

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#18 ·
You may have to pull the valve cover to get access to some remaining portion of that sensor!
 
#19 ·
I wouldn't presume to argue with Bismic but you may not need to pull the valve cover. If you have a square easy out that just barely fits in what's left of that sender it should come out easily. Its an ORB fitting so its not really all that tight.

 
#24 · (Edited)
We are all here to help! If it looks like he can get some bite, then go for it, but IIRC the opening on that bottom portion isn't very big. Even so, maybe you could get a small EZ-out in it.

The way the valve cover is "indented" for the sensor (and the way the break appears), it looks to me like it would be tough to get a hold of what is left in. I do think (hope) that you could get a bite on the threads w/ vise grips w/ the valve cover off.

If the valve cover is pulled, then be very careful for sure - spread out some paper or cellophane to catch any small parts that may come off (if there are any).

My concern was that it was put on too tightly, otherwise it shouldn't have come apart. Maybe it was a defective part though.

Please keep us informed.
 
#20 ·
I think I'll give that a try Bob... Unless Bismic would come back and tell me "no way" for some reason. I was kinda thinking about that but didn't know if I could damage the rest of the sensor enough to possibly drop pieces into engine somehow.

I'll wait for a little before going at it to see if anyone indicates that's a bad idea.

Thanks,
 
#21 ·
Actually, I don't think that will work... the part that is still in, is the "male" part that would go into what the picture shows above, as the female part. Unless you're indicating I should somehow pull that part out?
 
#22 ·
If you've got something sticking out of the valve cover that you can get hold of just put a vice grips on it and take it out.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Sometimes a needle-nose vise grip can get in a tight spot and have more room to rotate than a standard vise-grip and if the needle-nose is still too big then You may have to pull the valve cover to get access to some remaining portion of that sensor!
 
#25 ·
You know, the more I think about an EZ-out, the more I don't like it. It always seems to generate shavings and you don't want metal shavings (even small ones) dropping through the sensor hole - at least I wouldn't.
 
#26 ·
That was my original concern as well. I wonder if there is away to alleviate that concern? I imagine, when I try to get a hold of the plastic male part, it may break as well but I'm assuming the sensor hole isn't extremely large and those pieces won't likely fall through. Then if the rest of the sensor, minus the metal housing, can be pulled out, maybe I'll be able to put some type of putty or lock tight type of stuff to stop anything, shavings, from dropping through when using the easy out?


BTW - I just did a Buzz Test using the AutoEnginuity tool. It was successful. Does the success of that test indicate the nozzles are actually opening or is it just the poppets? I've seen someone indicate that trying to start the engine, while the fuel pump was not operational, could cause the injector nozzles to "Weld" themselves together. I'm not sure how long you'd have to crank something for them to get that hot.

Thanks everyone! I really do like the idea of using the cellophane to cover everything if/when I take the valve cover off to get to the ICP.
 
#27 ·
Ok, what I finally decided to do was to buy an Oil Rail and just replace it instead of trying to get the ICP out. I think now that I have the rail out, I can use a pair of pliers to get the ICP out too. Not that anyone needs an extra oil rail laying around but at least it's not garbage.

Having said that: I put new cups on the used oil rail I purchased and installed it into the truck. I also put new stand pipe and dummy plug in. I installed the air test fitting and used my AutoEnginuity to close the IPR and the first test run I wasn't able to hear any air leaking whatsoever... I found that to be odd but ok. No air out of the Oil Filter reservoir when the IPR was set at 100%. I will say I didn't here any difference between IPR at 0% and IPR at 100%. So I'm not even sure the AutoEnginuity actuation even worked. I thought I'd be able to hear the IPR click shut but I'm not sure... Maybe someone can let me know if I should be able to.

Regardless, if I'm not hearing, or seeing any bubbling, from the oil filter reservoir, that would indicate the HPOP is not leaking but would it indicate that it is good?

I pulled the air hose off the fitting and put it back on again and I started hearing air leaking from the passenger side rail area. Not sure why it didn't show up the first time. I couldn't pinpoint exactly where until I got a piece of 3/8" clear hose and put one end in my ear and moved the other end around the rail to pinpoint where it was coming from. I found the leak to be coming from the #3 injector area.

Now my question is... can an injector be so bad as to let pressure through? I know there is a rubber seal at the top of the injector that could be damaged, right? But outside of that, could an injector be bad elsewhere and allow leaking?

I figure it's either the cup seal (which I just replaced brand new) or the injector or injector seal.

Would you suggest replacing the seal on the injector before moving forward or is it safe to say I need to replace the injector itself?
 
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