Rough running when cold...normal? - Diesel Forum - TheDieselStop.com
6.0L Power Stroke Engine and Drivetrain Discussion of the 6.0L Power Stroke diesel engine and drivetrain in the 2003-Up Super Duties and Excursions. No gas engine discussion allowed except on transmissions and drivetrain that pertain to all models. Please confine discussion of topics in this forum to those items that are specific to the 6.0L Power Stroke engine.

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post #1 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-23-2018, 01:50 PM Thread Starter
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Question Rough running when cold...normal?

I'm pretty new to the 6.0's. I picked up an 05' F250 several weeks ago, and drove it to work today for the first time. The temps are down in the high 20's/low 30's. I went out at lunch time and fired it up to go grab a bite to eat. I didn't let it warm up for a few minutes like I usually do. It ran pretty rough and jerky for a few minutes until the thing started to warm up. Is that normal for the 6.0's? It wasn't blowing any smoke, it just ran rough and was a little down on power. After a few minutes everything was back to normal and it was running nice and smooth again.

I'm running 15w-40 Motorcraft oil. Would I be better running a 5w-40 when the temps are like this? Or should I just make it a habit to let it sit for a few minutes and idle to warm up before I try to drive it anywhere?

Just trying to see if that's normal cold behavior for ht r6.0's....or if I have an injector issue or something.

Thanks!
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post #2 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-23-2018, 10:33 PM
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Sounds like stiction to me, I had that when I first bought mine (2012)and then switched over to Rotella T6. Since then I replaced all of the injectors. A lot of folks have used Hot shot with some success
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post #3 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-24-2018, 07:55 AM Thread Starter
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I'm planning on changing the oil tonight. Rotella T6 5w-40 and adding 64oz of HSS stiction eliminator. I'll let you know how it works out.
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post #4 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-24-2018, 09:18 AM
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Diesels don't like to be run hard until warm. Keep boost under 10psi until its fully warmed up (150 degrees of ECT or above). I let mine hit 100 degrees of ECT before driving it. The 6.0 uses advanced fuel timing when the egnine's cold. The theory was that there's delay in injector opening due to the cold oil's flow characteristics. This means that when the engine's cold the timing is higher, and higher fuel timing is one thing that contributes to blowing a head gasket.
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post #5 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-25-2018, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by iqraceworks View Post
I'm planning on changing the oil tonight. Rotella T6 5w-40 and adding 64oz of HSS stiction eliminator. I'll let you know how it works out.
Please don't use stiction eliminator. Many of those additives contain higher levels of chlorine, which cause excessive wear on the cam and internal components due to corrosion. Fully synthetic motor oil is the best option, just dont add anything else. If the temperatures are low, use 10w-30 oil designed specifically for diesels. Above 32, use 15w40.

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post #6 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-25-2018, 10:24 AM
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I tend to agree. 5W40 T6 full synthetic is fine year round. Every oil manufacturer says specifically not to use additives in their oil. If I had stiction and was facing injector replacement on a set of injectors with less than 150k miles on them I would try Archoil's product, which carries a money back guarantee to fix stiction. Worst case it doesn't work and you're out no money.

Otherwise, avoid the snake oil.
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'02 WRX - Outback rear disc swap, EBC green pads, DBA pillar vane rotors, TXS UP/TBE/TMIC, Perrin LW crank pulley, PPG billet steel shift forks, ACT Streetlite flywheel & clutch, K&N filter, STi Group N motor/trans mounts, TiC/Kartboy rear diff mounts/subframe lock bolts/outrigger stiffeners, Kartboy SS & all shifter bushings, custom PDX tune for Cobb AP - went 14.1 on a terrible 60ft before most of these mods; shooting for 13.50s
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post #7 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-25-2018, 10:27 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wallis.3521 View Post
Please don't use stiction eliminator. Many of those additives contain higher levels of chlorine, which cause excessive wear on the cam and internal components due to corrosion. Fully synthetic motor oil is the best option, just dont add anything else. If the temperatures are low, use 10w-30 oil designed specifically for diesels. Above 32, use 15w40.

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That's the first I've ever hear of the Stiction Reducer causing excessive wear in the motors. Any data to support that? I would think that if it was really that bad, it would be all over the Diesel truck forums....and people would be saying not to use it, but I seem to see the opposite.

I might run it until the next oil change, and then just go with straight synthetic with no additive. I already did my oil change + additive last night.
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post #8 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-25-2018, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by iqraceworks View Post
That's the first I've ever hear of the Stiction Reducer causing excessive wear in the motors. Any data to support that? I would think that if it was really that bad, it would be all over the Diesel truck forums....and people would be saying not to use it, but I seem to see the opposite.

I might run it until the next oil change, and then just go with straight synthetic with no additive. I already did my oil change + additive last night.
I can't say if stiction eliminator has chlorine or not but there are numerous TSBs out against using oil additives as many contain chlorine.

ISSUES:
The use of aftermarket engine oil supplements that contain
chlorine can cause corrosive wear to a vehicle’s engine
and possible subsequent engine failure.


TECHNICAL DISCUSSION:
Aftermarket engine oil supplements are “treatments” advertised
to enhance an oil’s properties. Manufacturers
claim these treatments reduce friction, noise and wear;
maintain higher lubricity and break down sludge and varnish,
protecting the engine components.

Many products advertise materials like Tefl on, molybdenum or graphite;
however, most fail to mention that they contain chlorine,
which can be highly corrosive when mixed with water.
Chlorinated paraffi ns were once used as extreme pressure
(EP) additives in lubricants, but the practice has been
discontinued in most passenger vehicle lubricants due to
the corrosive side effects.

These chlorinated compounds are used due to their low cost and ability to provide EP
properties, but they readily react with water and combustion
by-products to form acidic materials that promote corrosion
of engine components and bearings.


Lubes ‘N’ Greases published an article in August 1998
outlining the effects of chlorine on vehicle engine components.

Author Maurice LePera explains the following:
Chlorinated additives are not used in modern, fully
formulated automotive engine oils. The environment
within an internal combustion engine consists of high
operating temperatures, combustion and blowby
gases, moisture, acid and oxidation precursors, wear
debris, unburnt fuel, etc.

The combination of these ingredients when combined with the catalytic effectsof metallic surfaces and trace soluble metals such as copper will cause chlorine to hydrolyze – forming hydrochloric acid and other associated reaction products.

Once generated, these acidic reaction products
can cause serious internal engine corrosion problems,
especially on ferrous and aluminum alloys.


Furthermore, chlorinated paraffi ns tend to become more
reactive as temperatures rise, making them exponentially
more dangerous in hotter environments.


“Chlorine-based additives can be fi lm-forming even at
ambient temperatures, but as the temperature rises they
become aggressive and, with the release of HCl [hydrochloric
acid], can cause signifi cant corrosion.


Corrosion on the cam lobe or tappet face can also cause
corrosive spalling, outlined in an engine failure case later
in this bulletin.


Because of the side effects of chlorine breakdown, many
military and commercial specifi cations prohibit the use of
chlorinated additives.

For example, military specifi cation
MIL-PRF-17331J specifi es, “[additives], if used, shall not
contain chlorine.”3 Furthermore, “SAE J357 (Physical and
Chemical Properties of Engine Oils) lists chlorine as a
contaminant.

*



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Last edited by wallis.3521; 01-25-2018 at 10:49 AM.
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post #9 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-25-2018, 12:11 PM
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Archoil works! I can attest to that. I used it with Rotella T6. Nothing unusual showed up on my used oil analysis after using it.

2006 F250 Lariat Supercrew, ESOF 4x4, 18" tires, FX 4, HD Alt., block heater, Integrated Trailer Brake Controller, Upfitters, power rear window, cab lights - delivered 10/25/05

Ford Remote Start; High idle mod; Timbren load levelers, Scangauge II, Blue Spring upgrade, Quick Start 200 amp large frame alternator, 2 batteries January 2010; GPCM replace October 2011; 2 EGR valves; EGR Cooler replaced 12/30/11; Performance Machine & Mfg. coolant filter added 1/2/12; Rotella T6 5W40 oil; turned rotors, replaced brake pads for 1st time 1/7/12 101K miles; GPCM, both subharnesses and all 8 glowplugs replaced 1/5/13 at 118,000 miles; 2 Ford batteries replaced under battery warranty twice, the latest 9/18/2015; FICM power supply board replaced with Dorman board 11/20/13. Coolant flushed and replaced with Prestone ELC 9/27/14. STC fitting 10/19/14; Dummy Plugs 11/8/14; Turbo rebuilt 11/29/14; cold side CAC tube and boots replaced with metal tube 1/24/15; replaced hot side boots 1/30/16.
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post #10 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-25-2018, 03:04 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wallis.3521 View Post
I can't say if stiction eliminator has chlorine or not but there are numerous TSBs out against using oil additives as many contain chlorine.

ISSUES:
The use of aftermarket engine oil supplements that contain
chlorine can cause corrosive wear to a vehicle’s engine
and possible subsequent engine failure.


TECHNICAL DISCUSSION:
Aftermarket engine oil supplements are “treatments” advertised
to enhance an oil’s properties. Manufacturers
claim these treatments reduce friction, noise and wear;
maintain higher lubricity and break down sludge and varnish,
protecting the engine components.

Many products advertise materials like Tefl on, molybdenum or graphite;
however, most fail to mention that they contain chlorine,
which can be highly corrosive when mixed with water.
Chlorinated paraffi ns were once used as extreme pressure
(EP) additives in lubricants, but the practice has been
discontinued in most passenger vehicle lubricants due to
the corrosive side effects.

These chlorinated compounds are used due to their low cost and ability to provide EP
properties, but they readily react with water and combustion
by-products to form acidic materials that promote corrosion
of engine components and bearings.


Lubes ‘N’ Greases published an article in August 1998
outlining the effects of chlorine on vehicle engine components.

Author Maurice LePera explains the following:
Chlorinated additives are not used in modern, fully
formulated automotive engine oils. The environment
within an internal combustion engine consists of high
operating temperatures, combustion and blowby
gases, moisture, acid and oxidation precursors, wear
debris, unburnt fuel, etc.

The combination of these ingredients when combined with the catalytic effectsof metallic surfaces and trace soluble metals such as copper will cause chlorine to hydrolyze – forming hydrochloric acid and other associated reaction products.

Once generated, these acidic reaction products
can cause serious internal engine corrosion problems,
especially on ferrous and aluminum alloys.


Furthermore, chlorinated paraffi ns tend to become more
reactive as temperatures rise, making them exponentially
more dangerous in hotter environments.


“Chlorine-based additives can be fi lm-forming even at
ambient temperatures, but as the temperature rises they
become aggressive and, with the release of HCl [hydrochloric
acid], can cause signifi cant corrosion.


Corrosion on the cam lobe or tappet face can also cause
corrosive spalling, outlined in an engine failure case later
in this bulletin.


Because of the side effects of chlorine breakdown, many
military and commercial specifi cations prohibit the use of
chlorinated additives.

For example, military specifi cation
MIL-PRF-17331J specifi es, “[additives], if used, shall not
contain chlorine.”3 Furthermore, “SAE J357 (Physical and
Chemical Properties of Engine Oils) lists chlorine as a
contaminant.

*



Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
If you can't say if Hot Shot Secret Stiction Eliminator has Chlorine in it or not.......why did you say "Please don't use stiction eliminator. Many of those additives contain higher levels of chlorine"???
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post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-25-2018, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by iqraceworks View Post
If you can't say if Hot Shot Secret Stiction Eliminator has Chlorine in it or not.......why did you say "Please don't use stiction eliminator. Many of those additives contain higher levels of chlorine"???
More of a warning than anything. Companies won't release what is in their additive so, I guess at this point, use caution.

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post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-25-2018, 04:37 PM
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Well, basic chemistry tells me that if I combine water (H2O) and chlorine (Cl) I invariable end up with HCl and free oxygen. HCl is hydrochloric acid. Free oxygen is also not really your friend because its bouncing around looking for something which with to form an oxide, which rust and corrosion are both oxides of iron and aluminum respectively, from which everything inside an engine is made.

Like nutritional supplements in the US there is nothing that forces additive companies to list ingredients, and they hide behind their "secret" recipes. So does any particular additive contain chlorine? How would anyone know, expect the people selling it to you and if you ask them my guess is the answer will be "no" whether it does or doesn't.

In general additives at best are going to partially mask a real problem. At worst they might cause one.
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post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-26-2018, 07:50 AM Thread Starter
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I'm not arguing that chlorine is not good for your motor..........but at this point, nobody has any facts that prove that the three top additives that a ton of people use (Archoil, Rev-x, HSS) have any chlorine in them.

With so many people using those additives.....if there was chlorine in them, or some other chemical that would damage your motor......don't you think it would show up on the Blackstone oil reports that so many people do? I've never once hear or seen an oil report showing that any of those three additives was doing damage to a motor.

Just to come out and say "chlorine is bad for your motor, those additives "might" have chlorine in them, so don't use them".........is a foolish statement, unless someone has some actual facts and data.
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post #14 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-27-2018, 08:46 AM
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Logic tells us that an absence of proof is not a proof of absence. You can't make a valid argument that because no one knows that there's chlorine in those additives means that there isn't chlorine in those additives. As far as the OA reports, I can't remember ever seeing one where anyone was running any kind of additive. Every OA I've seen was done on ether straight conventional or synthetic oil alone.

People do not always equate problems with their causes. Sometimes the purported cause is also wrong. At one point doctors really though ice cream caused polio. People having engine failures would not likely make a connection between an oil additive and the failure.

Again, not saying these additives contain chlorine, or that they cause engine failure. Its just important to examine a situation from all sides. In this case what we have is really just a lot of speculation on both sides, with no actual proof one way or the other about chlorine content or engine damage.

'06 F250 4x4 - 5" Flo Pro exhaust, SB Filter intake, Accufab elbow, Edge Evolution (monitoring only), SCT w/ ID custom tune, FASS 195 pump, Gillette Diesel EGR cooler delete, Sinister Diesel coolant filter, ELC coolant, updated turbo drain tube/oil feed line/STC fitting/oil cooler, ARPs w/OEM HGs, Elite coolant lines, ITP RR fuel system, RCD 175/30 injectors, Powermax, BD CCV, FICM.com FICM w/ ID tune, Elite UP, BPD water pump - 13.069 @ 101.94

'02 WRX - Outback rear disc swap, EBC green pads, DBA pillar vane rotors, TXS UP/TBE/TMIC, Perrin LW crank pulley, PPG billet steel shift forks, ACT Streetlite flywheel & clutch, K&N filter, STi Group N motor/trans mounts, TiC/Kartboy rear diff mounts/subframe lock bolts/outrigger stiffeners, Kartboy SS & all shifter bushings, custom PDX tune for Cobb AP - went 14.1 on a terrible 60ft before most of these mods; shooting for 13.50s
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post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-27-2018, 09:45 AM Thread Starter
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Logic tells us that an absence of proof is not a proof of absence. You can't make a valid argument that because no one knows that there's chlorine in those additives means that there isn't chlorine in those additives. As far as the OA reports, I can't remember ever seeing one where anyone was running any kind of additive. Every OA I've seen was done on ether straight conventional or synthetic oil alone.

People do not always equate problems with their causes. Sometimes the purported cause is also wrong. At one point doctors really though ice cream caused polio. People having engine failures would not likely make a connection between an oil additive and the failure.

Again, not saying these additives contain chlorine, or that they cause engine failure. Its just important to examine a situation from all sides. In this case what we have is really just a lot of speculation on both sides, with no actual proof one way or the other about chlorine content or engine damage.
That's exactly my point....if there is no data to prove or disprove it, why was it even brought up?
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