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13 row to 26 row trans cooler - not impressed

26K views 66 replies 15 participants last post by  INFRNL 
#1 ·
First let me start off with this: I was not trying to solve a transmission issue, but rather extend the life of my transmission by doing this. My current transmission has about 22,000 miles and about 2.5 years old. it's a Ford Reman HD 4R100, not the standard build. My normal temp were 60-70 over ambient unloaded and 75-100 over when pulling our travel trailer.

So, last weekend, I pulled the existing transmission cooler out and was surprised to find a 13 row cooler instead of the normal 9 row. I guess they must install this with the HD 4R100 instead of the stock 9 row. From what I understand, the 13 row is usually found in the V10 trucks.

I already had the new 26 row cooler I ordered from Tousley Ford and all the assorted stuff to install it, so I went ahead and installed it.

All is well with it, but it only dropped my unloaded trans temps by maybe 5 degrees. I have not tested it with the travel trailer hooked up yet, and I hope to get a better drop in temps with it.

anyone else do this and think, "meh"? I always heard good reports about doing this and maybe I was just expecting more out of it, or maybe people actually needed to change their trans cooler anyhow, so it gave a better result.
 

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#2 ·
I can see two possible causes for your lack of improvement. One would be a weak bypass spring that is allowing fluid to bypass the cooler. The second would be a lack of airflow secondary to blocked fins in the radiator or intercooler.


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#4 ·
I can see two possible causes for your lack of improvement. One would be a weak bypass spring that is allowing fluid to bypass the cooler. The second would be a lack of airflow secondary to blocked fins in the radiator or intercooler.
I guess I'm wondering if the 13row cooler was just actuially doing a pretty good job already since it was getting me in the 60-70 deg over ambient range.. and according to the referenced write up from this site linked below, 60-80 over ambient is what's to be expected with the 6.0 cooler.

I will say my condenser has had it's fair share of bugs killed on it and could use a comb through the fins, but the radiator and CAC behind it are in really good shape and not loo long ago rinsed free of dirt that had built up ion them.

What is a typical temp. reduction with that set up if all is well?
Well.. that's the thing.. I'm not sure if I should have gotten much or a reduction or not.

according to this write up
www.thedieselstop.com/forums/attachments/f25/16285d1360339380-6-0l-trans-cooler-kit-6.0-transmission-cooler-write-up.pdf

Now you can enjoy cooler transmission temperatures while towing, or just driving down the road. My temperature gauge used to run 160-170 while empty and now is 130-140. When towing I had seen up to 220 degrees. Now the most I have seen is 170. Your transmission will run about 60-80 degrees over ambient with a 6.0 cooler installed.
and I'm on the low end of that running 55-65 over ambient empty now, but was 60-70 prior to the 6.0 cooler.

The hottest It's been around here since the cooler swap was 81deg and I saw 145 on an interstate run of 75-80mph. stuck in stop and go traffic in Atlanta, I'm seeing 55 over ambient and 60-65deg over at 55-65mph unloaded. I haven't had a chance to test loaded/towing yet.
 
#5 ·
My two cents. Since the radiator temp is controlled by a thermostat and the trans fluid flows thru it, I would think a trans cooler would be much more effective above 200 degrees. At temps below 200, your cooler is arguing with your radiator.

If I were still unhappy with the temps after a cooler, I would probably consider an electric fan near it.

My truck (and transmission) have 188k miles, most of which is pulling a 14k 5th wheel. It has had a trans cooler most of those miles. Sad to say, that I have no auxiliary gauges. My true temps might scare me, but they have worked for all those miles.
 
#6 ·
My two cents. Since the radiator temp is controlled by a thermostat and the trans fluid flows thru it, I would think a trans cooler would be much more effective above 200 degrees. At temps below 200, your cooler is arguing with your radiator.
Part of my experience as an Automatic Transmission Engineer at Ford was spent in transmission cooling.

In this capacity I tested transmission coolers, including the radiator cooler. Your assumption that the trans temp is arguing with the radiator is false. That does not happen.

The engine temperature is controlled by the thermostat. The radiator temperature is not controlled. It is a function of engine temp, engine speed, air temp, humidity (higher humidity cools BETTER!,) wind speed and direction, and many other things.

The transmission cooler is in the cool side of the radiator. This is where the coolant has already passed through the heat exchanger and is ready to return to the engine. The coolant here can be as much as 120°F cooler than the engine temperature. So if the engine is running 200°F then the coolant in the cold side of the radiator could be around 80°F. Usually it is more like 150°F.

From my actual measurements the ATF going to the cooler is ALWAYS hotter than the coolant around the cooler. So the radiator ALWAYS cools the ATF. Always. Without exception.
 
#8 ·
I think it is good insurance.

If the trans is not producing a lot of heat the cooler won't remove a lot of heat. All coolers are more effective with a larger difference between what needs to be cooled and the air temp. When the trans isn't working hard there is a smaller difference between the two temps and the cooler's efficiency is low. When the trans is producing a lot of heat because it is working hard the efficiency will be higher. This will limit the temps that you will see.

The summary of my long winded answer is that you will see better results when the trans is working hard.
 
#9 ·
#11 ·
Not inside the trans, but an external line could have a restriction. I think it just won't make a big difference unloaded.
 
#16 ·
Right...I meant inside the 'radiator'. :icon_wink: In a later post the author said he did a flow test and everything looked good. So you are probably right. He needs a heat load to really see what difference his new cooler will make.
 
#13 ·
Oh boy.Lets start with the basics.First I am not a automatic transmission mechanic.I am diesel/hydro_Ok.I noticed you said you were not trying to solve a problem with the up sized trans cooler and it's a low mile HD.You also said you did not notice a big difference for from the stock radiator.Am I to assume correctly that that temp reading on the stock radiator was taken with the stock cooler from that came on the truck and is now cooling a new transmission?A fresh cooler was not used at time of install?
I noticed nobody asked or I missed that.I am not a trans guy so...Or was it a fresh stock size cooler installed at time of trans. install,you d rove it for awhile and decided to upsize and I should not have assumed.There are trans experts here I just thought that was a pertinent question to be brought up.
Good Luck
 
#14 · (Edited)
Oh boy... Reread the 2nd paragraph in the original post. You were incorrect to assume that. The cooler was replaced with the transmission. That's Ford's SOP with a new transmission. They do not back flush old coolers as they feel they cannot be properly cleaned that way.

From the Technical Instruction sheet http://www.fordparts.com/FileUpload...R100-HvyDty4R100-Trqshft5R110_FCS-8427-AA.pdf
CAUTION: On 4R100/Heavy Duty 4R100, whenever the transmission is replaced on 1999 MY and newer F-Series Super Duty® or 2000 MY and newer Excursion, the Oil-to-Air (OTA) cooler MUST be REPLACED.
Now, I'm not sure if it's SOP to put the 13 row V10 cooler in with the HD 4R100 (it is the HD rebuild, not the standard rebuild, so maybe it's part of it but not listed as part of it). or if I got that because that's what they had and I got upgrade to the 13 row over the normal 9 row used in the diesels.

There's no mention of what OTA cooler that they use in the Sell Sheet
http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums...-heavy-duty-transmissions-4r100hdwith3100.pdf

So, yes.. I drove for a while almost 3 years now (warranty is about up) and I up sized from 13 row to 26 row thinking I had a 9 row until I pulled out a 13 row.
 
#17 · (Edited)
I still have the V10 cooler with 13 rows, 26 plates, which I upgraded to from the original 10 row, 20 plate diesel transmission cooler. I had already done this upgrade prior to Mark Kovalsky changing responsibilities at Ford to open up his own special can of whip-ass on the then new PowerTorq / TorqueShift transmission cooling system which resulted in the bigger 6.0L coolers and lines.

While severely tempted to make the same jump from the V10 cooler to the 6.0 cooler that you did, Bryce B, I had a feeling that in actual usage I might not be as "impressed", as you put it, as I would be if I were jumping from the original 7.3L cooler (which was built without an OTW cooler, that I also added).

I thought about all the posts where people reported that their 4R100's failed, and I also thought about the several 4R100 failures that have occurred in trucks from folks I personally know. Most of these failures occurred at slow speeds, often in reverse. Not much air flowing through an OTA cooler in reverse.

So I installed twin 8" electric high cfm puller fans directly behind the V10 cooler with an air directing shroud, thermostatic control, and a manually operated switch. The switch enables me to turn on the fans PRIOR to backing a trailer up a steep driveway, in anticipation of heating up the trans fluid.

The twin fans fit neatly under the intercooler, which brings up another point: One of the reasons I imagine that the original 7.3L cooler was smaller than the V10 cooler was because the diesel engine had the intercooler, and it appears that the original design intent was to not have the heat extracted from the transmission cooler flow through the intercooler.

However, the V10 cooler exchanger itself still does not intersect with the cooling air path to the intercooler, although the top oriented input and output lines are somewhat higher and have to be gently bent to fit between the intercooler and the rad support.

The 6.0L coolers, on the other hand, do partially intersect with the intercooler's cooling air path, which in theory could make the intercooler a little less efficient at reducing charge air temperatures. However, the flip side is losing a transmission to heat, so the lesser of two evils wins the day.

But for those who do have the V10 cooler, perhaps installed by Ford with a reman tranny as we are assuming happened with Bryce B's truck, it may be worthwhile to keep the V10 cooler, so as to maintain maximum temperature drop across the intercooler, since the intercooler would not be confronted with heat dissipated from the taller variety of transmission coolers.

If further cooling capacity is desired, one can add electric fans, so as to create cooling efficiency to the transmission during times of peak loading, when the TCC is unlocked, and when there little to no forward moving air flow through the exchangers, such as during stop and go traffic, slow speed trailer maneuvering, or when in reverse.


Postscript:

Adding electric fans to the existing front mounted cooler has another benefit: The fans do not have to be on all the time for the existing OEM heat exchanger to work naturally with oncoming front facing airflow. A formerly popular mod was to add a third, remote mounted, fan coupled transmission cooler underneath the truck somewhere. In fact, one of the earliest "write ups" on this website, back when it was on ABOL or Ford-Diesel, written by this site's former photo editor, details one such installation. But implementing a remote mounted transmission cooler kit with fan adds additional plumbing, which can unfavorably increase resistance to flow as well as exposure to fluid loss through a failed line or line connection under the truck. Also, in order for a horizontally oriented cooler to be effective, the fan must be running constantly, as one cannot position the heat exchanger vertically for natural flow through and still maintain breakover angles and ground clearance.
 
#18 ·
One of the reasons I imagine that the original 7.3L cooler was smaller than the V10 cooler was because the diesel engine had the intercooler, and it appears that the original design intent was to not have the heat extracted from the transmission cooler flow through the intercooler.
That's a good theory, but I have a different one. I wasn't around the 4R100 program when this happened, but it was the same people doing the cooling system that I worked with on other programs, so I know how they "think." I put that in quotes because I don't call it thinking, I call it weaseling out of their responsibilities.

Ford has standardized tests that they run to develop and prove out cooling. The theory is that if it passes these tests it will do fine in the field. That led to some warped thinking.

One of those tests is climbing a steep grade at 30 MPH at max GCWR, high temps, high sun load, and low humidity. These are all the worst case for cooling.

The diesel locks the converter at 30 MPH with heavy enough throttle. I think the V10 did not. A locked converter makes a LOT less heat than an unlocked one. So this standardized testing allowed the cooling weebs to pass their tests with a smaller cooler. These people had their performance judged by how much the cooling system cost. They had no negatives applied to them if the transmission cooked. Those negative marks went to the transmission staff.

If you, the customer, ran up the grade at 30 MPH your trans might stay cool. If you went 29 MPH the converter may unlock and cook the trans. But they didn't care about that, it passed their tests. I had several knock down drag out screaming matches over this subject. Those people were just plain stupid.

Much later the Automatic Transmission Engineering Office took responsibility for transmission cooling. That's when things got better. We made sure it passed the standard tests AND the common sense tests.
 
#19 ·
I have set up a similar transmission cooling system as NYB

These are photo’s from a transmission oil cooler upgrade that I performed on a 2003 F250 7.3ltr turbo diesel after a 4R100HD
transmission was installed due to heavy towing transmission failure.

First I made a much bigger air/air oil cooler using an adrad core. Core sizes were 600x300x37 which made a huge difference on
overall temp. On normal hwy driving it sat on 160 degrees f without a load, still not a 100% happy, I wanted to see temps
around 200f when towing, so rather than put an air/air cooler in the same size as the condensor I opted to go for a water/air
oil cooler.

Water cools up to 30 times more efficiently than air so pretty sure we could easily drop another 10-20 degrees f out of the trans.

Originally I had two Spal pusher fans on the condensor but they made not a scrap of difference as the oil cooler sat behind the
condensor in a space that was already there in front of the intercooler. 2nd time around I built the oil/air oil cooler and made
up the mounting brackets for the water cooler to go below the oil cooler. (as per pics). I then mounted the two pusher fans to
both units which meant pushing the condensor about 30mm forward .


The fans and pump to circulate the coolant around the oil cooler only comes on when the oil in the air/air reaches 176 degrees F
which means that when the oil gets to the water to oil cooler would be around 140 degrees F(aprox). After it goes through the water
oil cooler temp should be somewhere around 120-130 degrees F. I have a temp gauge at the coldest spot just before it goes back
into the trans.

Incidentally Trans has a heavy duty clutches and stall converter (4R100HD)

Photos show condenser the first time around with the two fans bolted to it. Custom mounting brackets for fans riveted to condenser.

Pics of Water to air oil cooler that was custom fabricated . It is a specially built oil cooler by Adrad in which oil passes the
the oilcooler tubes and water passes the other way over the fins and tube. Tested to 40psi and welded in such a way that water
can NOT get into the oil side.

Pics of steel mounting bracket for the water to oil cooler (Fully rubber mounted for vibration). The best and easiest place to
mount this was the crossmember to protect the transfer case behind the gearbox crossember.

You will also note the small 12v booster pump which is suffice

Pics Air/air oil cooler on top of water cooler for the water to oil cooler.
 

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#20 ·
I opted to go for a water/air
oil cooler.
Excellent choice.

Incidentally Trans has a heavy duty clutches and stall converter (4R100HD)
Of course it has a stall converter. Every automatic trans ever built has had a stall converter. All converters are stall converters. The question is, "What RPM does it stall at? Is it a low RPM stall or a high RPM stall?"

Diesels like low RPM stall converters. An engine that makes peak torque at 1600 RPM does not need to stall at 2500 RPM.

Tested to 40psi and welded in such a way that water can NOT get into the oil side.
I'm not sure what you were testing at 40 PSI. That's fine for the water side, the trans oil side can see more than that. If I remember correctly the nominal pressure in the 4R100 cooler lines is about 30 PSI. It can go higher than that. By contrast the 5R110W can see over 60 PSI in the cooler lines.
 
#21 ·
Mark, the testing was on the welding of the water to oil cooler so there is strength on the oil side of the cooler and there is no separation inside the cooler.
This set up is made like this because I tow very hilly (steep grade ) areas well above sea level , at low speeds the air flow is limited .

No matter the set up it does work well on my truck, My temps are where i need them so the exercise was well worth it.
 
#23 ·
What line pressure do you recommend for this type of set up Mark.
 
#24 ·
I don't understand the question. What does line pressure have to do with cooling? Unless you mean what pressure should be in the cooler lines? That pressure isn't set, it is a function of many things in the trans.
 
#25 ·
Yeah sorry not trans line pressure, the testing pressure of the water to oil cooler is adequate.
 
#26 ·
40 psi for testing the water side is fine. I would want to test the oil side at least twice operating pressure. Since it could see spikes to 60 PSI, and normal is 30 PSI, I would want to test to 120 PSI. But I'm an engineer and often overly cautious.
 
#27 ·
I can understand what you are saying Mark, the water to oil cooler was made by Adrad an Australian supplier, they where given the details of this particular build and supplied the cooler, the 12 volt booster pump that circulates the water side is also matched to the same cooler pressure rating.

This system has been there for many thousands of miles now and towed heavy for that time, our roads here are long, winding with very steep grades. So touch wood it will be there for a long time yet.

Cheers, Hope you and your family have a happy Easter.
 
#28 · (Edited)
I feel like I just had to fold my cards at a poker game. The OP described his "typical" trans cooling upgrade, I described my slightly more complex trans cooling upgrade, and then Googs rolls in like thunda from down unda and says "I'll see ya, and I'll raise ya triple." Daayum! Separate 12v pump. Separate OTW cooler. Twin twelves. Ok..ok.. my system has been officially humbled. I'm quite impressed Googs. I'd be even more impressed if you could make your pictures larger so that we could actually see them!

THANK YOU MARK... for so many things related to transmissions over the years, and in this particular thread, thank you for standing up for what you believed to be the right thing for both the customers AND the company while you were at Ford. I remember when you were in the LS program, chomping at the bit to bring some common sense back into the truck transmission program.

I think you saw, many years ago, what management is finally getting around to believing in today. To build a better product, you have to have a personal need to drive the product you build. Not just a "testing" mentality. Your personal vacation, your personal family, your personal hobbies have to DEPEND on the product. Then you get it. I recall you had your 7.3L PSD E-350. I want to say you even towed collectable fire apparatus with it, which is not a trivial tow. Regardless, you used the product personally.

And, you "saw and raised that" by living among the people who used the product. As I recall, you were one of the first Ford engineers to publically "out" yourself on the then new and growing online forums. You put your professional role and reputation on the line, and managed to deftly walk the line between balancing corporate interests and consumer interests, taking heat from both sides, while betraying neither.

Modern, successful, fast moving high technology companies (ie Google, Facebook) "get" what you did. Like a chess knight, you hopped two squares forward and one square to the left away from middle management marketing manipulations... by going directly online to provide engineering facts and bust myths... all of which helped realign customer expectations with reality.

By doing so, you put your career at risk, and at the same time Ford benefited from the risk you took because you received direct unfiltered feedback from customers who trusted your credibility far more than any online "FordService" customer representative, a job that was created 12 to 15 years after the fact of your personal initiative. You were ahead of your time, leveraging the instant spontaneity of internet enabled communication to build a genuine "connection"... not an advertised one.

Thank you Mark, for what you have done, and for what you continue to do. Even now, in this very thread... we are able to learn from you that the pressure in the transmission cooling circuit can momentarily spike up to 80 psi, and should therefore be tested to 120 psi for 3 times safety factor. This is helpful information. I know that I am not alone in feeling this appreciation for your many contributions to our better understanding of how automatic transmissions work in these vehicles.

Thanks again!
 
#29 ·
I feel like I just had to fold my cards at a poker game. The OP described his "typical" trans cooling upgrade, I described my slightly more complex trans cooling upgrade, and then Googs rolls in like thunda from down unda and says "I'll see ya, and I'll raise ya triple." Daayum! Separate 12v pump. Separate OTW cooler. Twin twelves. Ok..ok.. my system has been officially humbled. I'm quite impressed Googs. I'd be even more impressed if you could make your pictures larger so that we could actually see them!
Thanks for the poker game NYB .
Mate i will try and make and post the photo's some what larger, I'm only just learning how to load photo's and enlarge them so bare with me.
 
#31 ·
NYB,has my vote locked in for The Diesel Stop Affirmation Advocate.Good stuff people pay $125/ hr.for that!
So I was thinking about throwing one of those 6.0 coolers on my truck for when I plow but with the air not moving across the cooler like if I was blasting down the road be better to a smaller coil with a fan like that Mitsimoto?
NYB you know you are my bud.
 
#32 ·
Gooday NYB, I have finally got my daughter to resize the photos. I have many more, if you would like to view them, PM me your email and i will send them.
 

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#35 ·
Come on Nick you know this is your destiny.:lol::lol::lol::lol:
 
#36 ·
Nope.Everytime I fabricate something the planning and execution time spent is way high and I am never satisfied.I so not excellent in that department.When I pulled my bed to remove and fabricate new bed reinforcements I had to bring in a buddy that has been doing that stuff since he came back from Vietnam.He also has a degree in electrical engineering.
He is a nice guy,wicked smart and VERY handy when in those waters.
I believe he has pictures of that project.He did an amazing job fabricating those reinforcements.Way better than factory but was able to replicate exact shape and dimentions.He saved me from loosing my mind making them perfect .
I will see if he still has pictures.
 
#38 ·
Well, I finally got a chance to really give my truck a test.
Up until now, my towing was just short trips of less than 10 miles and all surface streets.
Yesterday, even though we are only camping a short distance, I wanted to weigh my set up. So, my son and I loaded up the camper that's loaded up for a week. The only thing we were missing was my Wife and Daughter, the 2 dogs and the dog's crates.. they were coming by later in the day.

So we headed north on I-75 up past the Cartersville area. I wanted to get in an honest 30 miles with the trailer. Temps were hovering around 95F ambient. we kept speeds in the 65mph range, but did pass a few slower trucks and RVs where we probably hit 70mph. This was mostly uphill.. at least we increased in elevation some in rolling hills.

So, to make this long winded story short..
15220lbs GCW with the equivalent of a block shaped camper, 95F ambient
Generally up hill at 65mph average
Trans temp maxed at 170F measured at the test port. heading back home with a stop at the scale and more of a down hill route, temps were in the 160-165F range.

So, these temps sound much improved from what I used to see which was in the 180-200F range.
 
#40 ·
Wow that good temp readings you will be happy with that, but the 180-200F temps where not going to destroy your tranny pulling that weight.

Glad to hear it's fixed where you like to see the temps .:thumbsup:
 
#44 · (Edited)
Id apologize for resurrecting this thread from almost 5 years ago but dont see anything wrong with it.

I found a leak on the hose fitting that connects to my 9 row on my 99 f250. I decided if Im gonna tear it down to fix it I might as well upgrade the cooler. Originally I bought a 26 row from a salvage operation in canada via ebay. I bought hoses and clamps and the magnafine filter mentioned here. My thought was Id catch any debris the used cooler had (right or wrong, not here to debate my logic there). Was a really nice looking cooler but it was lost in shipping. I told them either send me one in same or better condition or refund me the money so I can go elsewhere. Well they sent me one that was complete dogsh!t and after a very nice yet stearn email they refunded my money. By the way, if I was a jerk about it they may not have helped me.

I then decided to buy a cheap one from rockauto based on some reviews I read and its on the way.

Finally to my question; I have purchased new oil coolers in the past and to my horror found debris from manufacturing inside. So as I understand it ford does a new oil cooler and this filter when they do a reman trans. Should I install this filter with this brand new "cheap"cooler? I mean I have it, can it impede flow too much? I guess Id need to put it on a maintenance schedule based on miles.

This is a great thread by the way.

EDIT: Almost forgot to ask.. which line is the return???


thanks
 
#45 ·
I run the filter on mine on the supply line, but can’t see how it would matter. The reason most of us do that is the supply line is easily accessible and a rubber line whereas the return is metal. The return line is the one that goes to the rear of the transmission.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
#49 · (Edited)
Thank for the answer to which is the return.

Anyone have any recommendation on running one at all? Iv seen debates on this. I guess I just need to decide for myself based on facts. Seems like the fact is ford recommends it. Although I dont have an OTW cooler.. which is why maybe they recommended it even with a new OTA cooler.

EDIT: Sorry. I missed the responses..thank you!
 
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