13 row to 26 row trans cooler - not impressed - Diesel Forum - TheDieselStop.com
'99 & up 7.3L Power Stroke Engine and Drivetrain Discussion of the '99 & up 7.3L Power Stroke diesel engine and drivetrain in the 1999-Up Super Duty trucks and Excursions. No gas engine discussion allowed except on transmissions and drivetrain that pertain to all models. Please confine discussion of topics in this forum to those items that are specific to the 7.3L Power Stroke engine.

 2Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 67 (permalink) Old 04-15-2014, 10:59 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
BryceB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 150
My Photos: (0)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
13 row to 26 row trans cooler - not impressed

First let me start off with this: I was not trying to solve a transmission issue, but rather extend the life of my transmission by doing this. My current transmission has about 22,000 miles and about 2.5 years old. it's a Ford Reman HD 4R100, not the standard build. My normal temp were 60-70 over ambient unloaded and 75-100 over when pulling our travel trailer.

So, last weekend, I pulled the existing transmission cooler out and was surprised to find a 13 row cooler instead of the normal 9 row. I guess they must install this with the HD 4R100 instead of the stock 9 row. From what I understand, the 13 row is usually found in the V10 trucks.

I already had the new 26 row cooler I ordered from Tousley Ford and all the assorted stuff to install it, so I went ahead and installed it.

All is well with it, but it only dropped my unloaded trans temps by maybe 5 degrees. I have not tested it with the travel trailer hooked up yet, and I hope to get a better drop in temps with it.

anyone else do this and think, "meh"? I always heard good reports about doing this and maybe I was just expecting more out of it, or maybe people actually needed to change their trans cooler anyhow, so it gave a better result.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	1397325945709.jpg
Views:	1826
Size:	98.3 KB
ID:	40201  

Click image for larger version

Name:	1397325963141.jpg
Views:	2706
Size:	99.6 KB
ID:	40209  


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The Rig" - 2001 Ford F-250 CCSB 4x4 7.3 PSD Lariat - 285/75R16 BFG AT KO, HD4R100, MBRP 4" XP series exhaust, Ford AIS Intake, Zoodad, Fumoto oil drain valve, Pioneer AVIC-Z130BT In-Dash Nav, ScanGauge II, GlowShift 3 Gauge Pod (EGT, TFT, Boost)
307rwhp / 651rwft-lbs
BryceB is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 67 (permalink) Old 04-15-2014, 11:59 AM
RT
Lifetime Supporting Member
Lifetime Supporting Member
 
RT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 14,235
My Photos: (0)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
I can see two possible causes for your lack of improvement. One would be a weak bypass spring that is allowing fluid to bypass the cooler. The second would be a lack of airflow secondary to blocked fins in the radiator or intercooler.


Sent from AutoGuide.com App

2003 F-250 XLT Crew Cab 7.3L, Chrome BigTex Grille Guard, Quad pillar - 3 ISSPRO gauges (trans, pyro, boost) and DP-Tuner F6; Roush fuel pressure / temperature / oil pressure gauges, Ford Severe Duty AIS, 31 row 6.0 transmission cooler, ScanGauge II, Marinco mod, Walker BTM, Full Force Stage 1 injectors

IF MY BODY IS EVER FOUND ON A JOGGING TRAIL JUST KNOW THAT I WAS MURDERED SOMEWHERE ELSE AND DUMPED THERE
RT is offline  
post #3 of 67 (permalink) Old 04-15-2014, 12:33 PM
Lifetime Supporting Member
Lifetime Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 7,913
My Photos: (1)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
What is a typical temp. reduction with that set up if all is well?
Maryland dieselnick is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 67 (permalink) Old 04-15-2014, 01:39 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
BryceB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 150
My Photos: (0)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by RT View Post
I can see two possible causes for your lack of improvement. One would be a weak bypass spring that is allowing fluid to bypass the cooler. The second would be a lack of airflow secondary to blocked fins in the radiator or intercooler.
I guess I'm wondering if the 13row cooler was just actuially doing a pretty good job already since it was getting me in the 60-70 deg over ambient range.. and according to the referenced write up from this site linked below, 60-80 over ambient is what's to be expected with the 6.0 cooler.

I will say my condenser has had it's fair share of bugs killed on it and could use a comb through the fins, but the radiator and CAC behind it are in really good shape and not loo long ago rinsed free of dirt that had built up ion them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maryland dieselnick View Post
What is a typical temp. reduction with that set up if all is well?
Well.. that's the thing.. I'm not sure if I should have gotten much or a reduction or not.

according to this write up
www.thedieselstop.com/forums/attachments/f25/16285d1360339380-6-0l-trans-cooler-kit-6.0-transmission-cooler-write-up.pdf

Quote:
Now you can enjoy cooler transmission temperatures while towing, or just driving down the road. My temperature gauge used to run 160-170 while empty and now is 130-140. When towing I had seen up to 220 degrees. Now the most I have seen is 170. Your transmission will run about 60-80 degrees over ambient with a 6.0 cooler installed.
and I'm on the low end of that running 55-65 over ambient empty now, but was 60-70 prior to the 6.0 cooler.

The hottest It's been around here since the cooler swap was 81deg and I saw 145 on an interstate run of 75-80mph. stuck in stop and go traffic in Atlanta, I'm seeing 55 over ambient and 60-65deg over at 55-65mph unloaded. I haven't had a chance to test loaded/towing yet.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The Rig" - 2001 Ford F-250 CCSB 4x4 7.3 PSD Lariat - 285/75R16 BFG AT KO, HD4R100, MBRP 4" XP series exhaust, Ford AIS Intake, Zoodad, Fumoto oil drain valve, Pioneer AVIC-Z130BT In-Dash Nav, ScanGauge II, GlowShift 3 Gauge Pod (EGT, TFT, Boost)
307rwhp / 651rwft-lbs
BryceB is offline  
post #5 of 67 (permalink) Old 04-16-2014, 07:01 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cleburne, TX
Posts: 41
My Photos: (0)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
My two cents. Since the radiator temp is controlled by a thermostat and the trans fluid flows thru it, I would think a trans cooler would be much more effective above 200 degrees. At temps below 200, your cooler is arguing with your radiator.

If I were still unhappy with the temps after a cooler, I would probably consider an electric fan near it.

My truck (and transmission) have 188k miles, most of which is pulling a 14k 5th wheel. It has had a trans cooler most of those miles. Sad to say, that I have no auxiliary gauges. My true temps might scare me, but they have worked for all those miles.

mcdlt
2015 F350 SRW 6.7 diesel Long bed 4X4, 74,000 miles, bone stock except for Better Built tool box and 16k 5th wheel hitch.

2000 F350 crew-cab dually, DP-Tuner Xcal2, Jody's 40hp tow & 80hp economy tune, coolant filter, AIS, Zoodad, Walker BTM, Reese 15k 5th wheel hitch, 110 gal aux fuel tank
mcdonell8 is offline  
post #6 of 67 (permalink) Old 04-16-2014, 09:39 AM
Lifetime Supporting Member
 
Mark Kovalsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: SE Florida, USA
Posts: 11,573
My Photos: (6)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcdonell8 View Post
My two cents. Since the radiator temp is controlled by a thermostat and the trans fluid flows thru it, I would think a trans cooler would be much more effective above 200 degrees. At temps below 200, your cooler is arguing with your radiator.
Part of my experience as an Automatic Transmission Engineer at Ford was spent in transmission cooling.

In this capacity I tested transmission coolers, including the radiator cooler. Your assumption that the trans temp is arguing with the radiator is false. That does not happen.

The engine temperature is controlled by the thermostat. The radiator temperature is not controlled. It is a function of engine temp, engine speed, air temp, humidity (higher humidity cools BETTER!,) wind speed and direction, and many other things.

The transmission cooler is in the cool side of the radiator. This is where the coolant has already passed through the heat exchanger and is ready to return to the engine. The coolant here can be as much as 120°F cooler than the engine temperature. So if the engine is running 200°F then the coolant in the cold side of the radiator could be around 80°F. Usually it is more like 150°F.

From my actual measurements the ATF going to the cooler is ALWAYS hotter than the coolant around the cooler. So the radiator ALWAYS cools the ATF. Always. Without exception.

Mark
Former
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Automatic Transmission Engineer 1988-2007


“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson
Mark Kovalsky is offline  
post #7 of 67 (permalink) Old 04-16-2014, 10:07 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
BryceB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 150
My Photos: (0)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Kovalsky View Post
Part of my experience as an Automatic Transmission Engineer at Ford was spent in transmission cooling.
So Mark (I was hoping you'd pop in), what do you think of my findings with the change from the 13 to 26 row cooler not being much of a change? from my searching, it looks like my temps are in line with what others see using the 6.0 coolers but they normally went 9 row to 26 row.

did I waste my time/money or do you think I will see better temps under heavy load conditions?

Like I started off with, I wasn't trying to solve an issue since my temps were not high before and the transmission is a low mileage HD 4R100, but rather I was doing this for insurance to keep the transmission healthy.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The Rig" - 2001 Ford F-250 CCSB 4x4 7.3 PSD Lariat - 285/75R16 BFG AT KO, HD4R100, MBRP 4" XP series exhaust, Ford AIS Intake, Zoodad, Fumoto oil drain valve, Pioneer AVIC-Z130BT In-Dash Nav, ScanGauge II, GlowShift 3 Gauge Pod (EGT, TFT, Boost)
307rwhp / 651rwft-lbs
BryceB is offline  
post #8 of 67 (permalink) Old 04-16-2014, 10:23 AM
Lifetime Supporting Member
 
Mark Kovalsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: SE Florida, USA
Posts: 11,573
My Photos: (6)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
I think it is good insurance.

If the trans is not producing a lot of heat the cooler won't remove a lot of heat. All coolers are more effective with a larger difference between what needs to be cooled and the air temp. When the trans isn't working hard there is a smaller difference between the two temps and the cooler's efficiency is low. When the trans is producing a lot of heat because it is working hard the efficiency will be higher. This will limit the temps that you will see.

The summary of my long winded answer is that you will see better results when the trans is working hard.

Mark
Former
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Automatic Transmission Engineer 1988-2007


“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson
Mark Kovalsky is offline  
post #9 of 67 (permalink) Old 04-16-2014, 10:45 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
BryceB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 150
My Photos: (0)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Kovalsky View Post
The summary of my long winded answer is that you will see better results when the trans is working hard.
thanks!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The Rig" - 2001 Ford F-250 CCSB 4x4 7.3 PSD Lariat - 285/75R16 BFG AT KO, HD4R100, MBRP 4" XP series exhaust, Ford AIS Intake, Zoodad, Fumoto oil drain valve, Pioneer AVIC-Z130BT In-Dash Nav, ScanGauge II, GlowShift 3 Gauge Pod (EGT, TFT, Boost)
307rwhp / 651rwft-lbs
BryceB is offline  
post #10 of 67 (permalink) Old 04-16-2014, 07:49 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Bremerton, Washington
Posts: 2,980
My Photos: (0)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Kovalsky View Post
I think it is good insurance.

If the trans is not producing a lot of heat the cooler won't remove a lot of heat. All coolers are more effective with a larger difference between what needs to be cooled and the air temp. When the trans isn't working hard there is a smaller difference between the two temps and the cooler's efficiency is low. When the trans is producing a lot of heat because it is working hard the efficiency will be higher. This will limit the temps that you will see.

The summary of my long winded answer is that you will see better results when the trans is working hard.
Mark, is it possible he has plugged cooler line inside the transmission so he doesn't notice much of a change?

02 F250, 4X4, 4R100, 3.73, B&M Transmission Pan, Edge CTS Digital Gage, Tymar 4" Exhaust, Tymar Intake & HPX & TS 6 Position Chip. IH Bellowed Up-Pipes, RiffRaff AIH delete plug, Riffraff FRx Kit. 6.0 Transmission Cooler. Dieselsite Coolant filter & Transmission filter & 203 Thermostat & WW2 & TurboMaster & inter-cooler boots. BD CCV filter. Driven Diesel Fuel Tank Mod & Pre-Pump Filter. John Wood's valve body.
Griz is offline  
post #11 of 67 (permalink) Old 04-16-2014, 07:54 PM
Lifetime Supporting Member
 
Mark Kovalsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: SE Florida, USA
Posts: 11,573
My Photos: (6)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Not inside the trans, but an external line could have a restriction. I think it just won't make a big difference unloaded.

Mark
Former
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Automatic Transmission Engineer 1988-2007


“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson
Mark Kovalsky is offline  
post #12 of 67 (permalink) Old 04-16-2014, 08:13 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
BryceB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 150
My Photos: (0)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griz View Post
Mark, is it possible he has plugged cooler line inside the transmission so he doesn't notice much of a change?
I didn't measure it or time it, but I did test flow at the end of the return line and it flowed pretty damn fast, so I doubt it's a clogged line. I just wanted to make sure that I didn't kink something with hoses since they are routed funky compared to the originals.

Maybe I still had some air in the cooler that finally worked its way out of the system. Today's drive home (90 minutes to go 37 miles in stop and go traffic) the most I saw was 58 over ambient (temps were between 63 to 70 deg ambient and it maxed @ 121 at the test port) . That would probably have had me up around 70 or a bit over before. It was rare to get up to speeds enough to lock the converter or even get into 3rd gear.

I guess it's better than the initial drive now. I really think the 13 row cooler was doing a better job than the 9 rows do and my results are just going to be different than what I had expected due to that.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The Rig" - 2001 Ford F-250 CCSB 4x4 7.3 PSD Lariat - 285/75R16 BFG AT KO, HD4R100, MBRP 4" XP series exhaust, Ford AIS Intake, Zoodad, Fumoto oil drain valve, Pioneer AVIC-Z130BT In-Dash Nav, ScanGauge II, GlowShift 3 Gauge Pod (EGT, TFT, Boost)
307rwhp / 651rwft-lbs

Last edited by BryceB; 04-16-2014 at 08:16 PM.
BryceB is offline  
post #13 of 67 (permalink) Old 04-16-2014, 08:36 PM
Lifetime Supporting Member
Lifetime Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 7,913
My Photos: (1)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Oh boy.Lets start with the basics.First I am not a automatic transmission mechanic.I am diesel/hydro.Ok.I noticed you said you were not trying to solve a problem with the up sized trans cooler and it's a low mile HD.You also said you did not notice a big difference for from the stock radiator.Am I to assume correctly that that temp reading on the stock radiator was taken with the stock cooler from that came on the truck and is now cooling a new transmission?A fresh cooler was not used at time of install?
I noticed nobody asked or I missed that.I am not a trans guy so...Or was it a fresh stock size cooler installed at time of trans. install,you d rove it for awhile and decided to upsize and I should not have assumed.There are trans experts here I just thought that was a pertinent question to be brought up.
Good Luck
Maryland dieselnick is offline  
post #14 of 67 (permalink) Old 04-16-2014, 09:12 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
BryceB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 150
My Photos: (0)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maryland dieselnick View Post
Oh boy.Lets start with the basics.First I am not a automatic transmission mechanic.I am diesel/hydro.Ok.I noticed you said you were not trying to solve a problem with the up sized trans cooler and it's a low mile HD.You also said you did not notice a big difference for from the stock radiator.Am I to assume correctly that that temp reading on the stock radiator was taken with the stock cooler from that came on the truck and is now cooling a new transmission?A fresh cooler was not used at time of install?
I noticed nobody asked or I missed that.I am not a trans guy so...Or was it a fresh stock size cooler installed at time of trans. install,you d rove it for awhile and decided to upsize and I should not have assumed.There are trans experts here I just thought that was a pertinent question to be brought up.
Good Luck

Oh boy... Reread the 2nd paragraph in the original post. You were incorrect to assume that. The cooler was replaced with the transmission. That's Ford's SOP with a new transmission. They do not back flush old coolers as they feel they cannot be properly cleaned that way.

From the Technical Instruction sheet http://www.fordparts.com/FileUploads...CS-8427-AA.pdf
Quote:
CAUTION: On 4R100/Heavy Duty 4R100, whenever the transmission is replaced on 1999 MY and newer F-Series Super Duty® or 2000 MY and newer Excursion, the Oil-to-Air (OTA) cooler MUST be REPLACED.
Now, I'm not sure if it's SOP to put the 13 row V10 cooler in with the HD 4R100 (it is the HD rebuild, not the standard rebuild, so maybe it's part of it but not listed as part of it). or if I got that because that's what they had and I got upgrade to the 13 row over the normal 9 row used in the diesels.

There's no mention of what OTA cooler that they use in the Sell Sheet
http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/...hdwith3100.pdf

So, yes.. I drove for a while almost 3 years now (warranty is about up) and I up sized from 13 row to 26 row thinking I had a 9 row until I pulled out a 13 row.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The Rig" - 2001 Ford F-250 CCSB 4x4 7.3 PSD Lariat - 285/75R16 BFG AT KO, HD4R100, MBRP 4" XP series exhaust, Ford AIS Intake, Zoodad, Fumoto oil drain valve, Pioneer AVIC-Z130BT In-Dash Nav, ScanGauge II, GlowShift 3 Gauge Pod (EGT, TFT, Boost)
307rwhp / 651rwft-lbs

Last edited by BryceB; 04-16-2014 at 09:17 PM.
BryceB is offline  
post #15 of 67 (permalink) Old 04-16-2014, 09:32 PM
Lifetime Supporting Member
Lifetime Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 7,913
My Photos: (1)
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
I guess I missed it in the existing words.Am aware of putting new cooler is supposed to be part of program.I was not sure if you were and did say maybe I missed it.
The "oh boy was not a thing about you.It was about possible restriction.Sorry.
ArcticDriver likes this.
Maryland dieselnick is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Diesel Forum - TheDieselStop.com > 1999-2007 Ford Super Duties > '99 & up 7.3L Power Stroke Engine and Drivetrain

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Diesel Forum - TheDieselStop.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome