4r100 trans issue. 4th gear woos - Diesel Forum - TheDieselStop.com
'99 & up 7.3L Power Stroke Engine and Drivetrain Discussion of the '99 & up 7.3L Power Stroke diesel engine and drivetrain in the 1999-Up Super Duty trucks and Excursions. No gas engine discussion allowed except on transmissions and drivetrain that pertain to all models. Please confine discussion of topics in this forum to those items that are specific to the 7.3L Power Stroke engine.

 
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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-28-2018, 10:56 PM Thread Starter
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4r100 trans issue. 4th gear woos

I've got an issue with trans not shifting properly. This is a Ford reman trans with 180xxx. I would think any updates would have been put in at this time. Like the ratchet style drum, etc. 1st Problem: summer. After an HR of stop an go traffic jam, and finally getting to get back to 70, I had a slip in OD. At 1st I thought TCC as it was slipping and only increasing in rpm about 300. I promptly turned OD off and drove 60mph the rest of the way home, about 35 miles. On the way I got ahold of a good friend to see about using his maxisys.

The next day I plugged it in and everything looked fine. SSA and SSB were working properly. TCC was locking up at 156% (as per chip). TC slip actual vs desired pre lock and lock we're all just fine. The truck ran and shifted great. Was able to do full on pulls in 4th with out issues. After talking to my buddy we decided TC got heat soaked and was just 'one of those things'. Everything was great for about 5 weeks. Then, it happened again. This time on my way into work in the AM. After 45miles of driving it was slipping. Seems how it was on 50* outside, I thought for sure it wasn't a heat soaked issue. Trans temp itself was about 168* as per the maxisys808. I immediately checked the live data. To my surprise nothing looked off. Only thing I DID notice was converter slip. When locked it was calling for zero slip and actual was varying between 0-11 RPM, yes, Eleven. And this was at 65mph. At the end of day when I left to head home, it was fine. And all the live data looked good.

It was fine up until about 4 weeks ago today. Same symptoms presented. Have not been able to run the maxisys as I don't have it 🤷. Took to a trusted trans guy and he went for a ride with his snap on modus. He didn't realize anything was wrong because he was looking at scanner. I had to point out to him what was happening. He said it wasn't TCC and the solenoids were working as should. TC slip actual vs desired he said we're right on spec. He suggested the TC had scored the pump. That it would need a new billet TC, pump and bushing, that the mechanical diode had failed and would need new OD clutches. 🤦🤷.

Upon further driving and doing my best to isolate the issue I've found these things.

With chip installed: any position causes the OD light to blink eventually. Generally about 5-7 tries of it attempting the shift to OD. Before the light trips, it will only shift to 4th if your going down hill and give just enough throttle to prevent coasting or engine braking. Any amount of throttle over these scenarios instantly drops out of 4th. I've also confirmed that the rpms at which this condition occurs is a match for 3rd gear with lockup. So another verification of TCC working.

When I get the OD to start flashing it will now go into 4th gear. This only happens in chip position 5,6. It will shift into 4th and as long as I accelerate easy and not too much of a grade, it will hold 4th. No slipping.... just runs as it should. Chip positions stock,2,3,4 will allow it to shift into 4th but can not hold it in any circumstance other than down hills or a fuzz above coasting.

Last thing: decided to pull ts6 chip. Now that the truck is gutless I was able to find out that it will (driving easy or normally) shift into 4th at 24% engine load. This would be going thru gears nice and easy. This would be flat road with very slight hill. At 25% load it drops out of 4th into 3rd with lockup. How do I know? I set cruise right before it downshifts. I then note the RPM then turn OD off. Rpms obviously increase, but come back down when TCC locks up. And the rpms match from when it dropped out of 4th to begin with.

Ok, now I'm running about 50mph. I'm in 3rd with lockup. I accelerate easy but steadily. Turn OD on. Continue to accelerate. At 70% engine load it will then upshift to 4th. I continue to accelerate, more aggressively now up to 90mph. 4th never slips once. I gradually slow down. Not full release of throttle, but just an easy backing down. It gets down to 50% engine load and shifts back to 3rd with lockup. I again can bring it back up to 65-70% load and process repeats.

I have engine braking in 4th in any scenario of chip, no chip, chip position etc. For example. If I've crested a hill about 45mph and have had an engine load of 24%(where it will shift) then come down hill foot off throttle 100%, I have full engine braking from 4th gear. It unlocks around 40 mph

If I'm in 3rd above 30mph and 1k rpm and lift off throttle, it will brake down to 30mph @1k rpm.

Engine braking in reverse is also working.

Truck is 01. Reman Ford trans. Not sure if it's actually a Ford or Jasper but work was done at Ford dealer.

I've been pm'ing Mark K. And he's been very helpful, as you all know 🍻

But wanted to see what the rest of the community thinks. Also wanted to take this from a pm to open for when the next guy/gal has this he/she can look through to see if it'll help them.
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-29-2018, 08:42 AM Thread Starter
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Another piece of info. If I set cruise at 60, chip removed, it will constantly drop to 3rd then back to 4th. The rate is about 2 sec in each gear with 1 sec dropping and raising rpm between each. It will not do this with cruise off and holding pedal steady
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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-29-2018, 09:26 AM
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You've been remarkably thorough in your description. Can't believe a trans tech would suggest a failed mechanical diode from anything you mentioned, especially on a rebuild. I think doing pressure tests (idle and stall) is your next move. Any discoloration to the fluid? I'm sure you've verified the fluid is at the right level, clean and no odor.

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I wonder if clouds ever look down on us and say, "Hey, look - that one is shaped like an idiot!"
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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-29-2018, 12:06 PM Thread Starter
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Fluid has very very faint smell of clutch. It looks clean, doesn't feel gritty or slimey. No apparent metal or clutch material. It has a slight brown color. Very slight brown.
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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-30-2018, 07:20 AM
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Can't believe a trans tech would suggest a failed mechanical diode from anything you mentioned, especially on a rebuild.
Especially since the mechanical diode only affects the 1-2 shift. It doesn't do anything between 3rd and 4th.

And the mechanical diode was only in the diesel trucks, and only for the first half of the 2001 model year.

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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-30-2018, 08:51 AM Thread Starter
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I was also thinking since it's a reman it would have been updated to sprag style???🤔
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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-30-2018, 08:54 AM Thread Starter
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There's a big white tag on trans. I'll get the info today. Not sure if it will be of any help 🤷
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-30-2018, 02:11 PM
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I was also thinking since it's a reman it would have been updated to sprag style???🤔
I can't imagine a reman company that wouldn't replace a mechanical diode if they came across one.

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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-03-2018, 07:39 AM Thread Starter
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Little more info. I attempted to get pressure readings. And I hooked up what I had laying around. A diesel compression kit that had the proper fitting to thread into trans. Obviously there is a check valve since it's a compression line 🤷🤦. I was able to get 60lbs in P. And when I backed up to hook up to trailer, very low speed, it got up to 240. That's about the extent of my testing, for now.

Noticed this AM I don't have engine braking in 2nd. I don't have engine braking in 4th if OD not blinking (tho not entirely sure I was even in 4th).

I do have engine braking after OD light starts blinking in 4th. No engine braking in 2nd in any condition (not sure if that means anything).

I do have engine braking in 3rd, with OD blinking or not.
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-03-2018, 08:23 AM Thread Starter
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Ok. So I think I'm wrong above. Truck engine brakes in 1st and 2nd just not with converter lock. 3rd is like a manual trans and has no rpm drop when I let off throttle. 1st and 2nd both drop about 400 rpm when throttle is stopped. I've done tests with rpms at 2k in m1 and m2
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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-03-2018, 10:27 AM
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Little more info. I attempted to get pressure readings. And I hooked up what I had laying around. A diesel compression kit that had the proper fitting to thread into trans. Obviously there is a check valve since it's a compression line 🤷🤦. I was able to get 60lbs in P. And when I backed up to hook up to trailer, very low speed, it got up to 240. That's about the extent of my testing, for now.
That shows that the pump is doing something. There isn't enough information to know if it is doing what it is supposed to do or not.

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Noticed this AM I don't have engine braking in 2nd. I don't have engine braking in 4th if OD not blinking (tho not entirely sure I was even in 4th).
It wasn't in fourth. There is ALWAYS engine braking in fourth. If there is no engine braking it cannot be in fourth.

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Ok. So I think I'm wrong above. Truck engine brakes in 1st and 2nd just not with converter lock.
That makes no sense to me. The converter lock doesn't affect if there is engine braking or not.

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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-03-2018, 12:43 PM Thread Starter
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My mistake was in assuming engine braking is evident by no rpm drop. Say in 3rd with lock when I let off throttle it acts as a manual. I was expecting the same for m1 and m2. But I see now that it's just a matter of no lock in m1 and m2.

It does indeed have engine braking. In 1 and 2. As well as 3 and 4. However, only 4th when od light is blinking.
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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-03-2018, 08:55 PM
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My mistake was in assuming engine braking is evident by no rpm drop. Say in 3rd with lock when I let off throttle it acts as a manual. I was expecting the same for m1 and m2. But I see now that it's just a matter of no lock in m1 and m2.

It does indeed have engine braking. In 1 and 2. As well as 3 and 4. However, only 4th when od light is blinking.
Fourth gear ALWAYS has engine braking. The only way to not have engine braking in fourth is to not be in fourth gear.

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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-05-2018, 10:57 PM Thread Starter
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Well I have no idea where this is going. I'm just gonna put the information out the best I can.

Here's the scenario. Start truck, turn OD off, put in D. Shifts fine. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, lockup.

If at hwy speeds of 60 since that's all I can go ATM. I turn OD back on. It now doesn't even attempt 4th (as far as I can feel and see on rpm on scanguage).

It appears as TCC is now unlocked as when I let off throttle and give it throttle it does not grab like it does in 3rd with lockup, Which is identical to a manual trans.

I turn OD back off and it downshifts to 3rd and about 2 seconds later I have lockup.

Does the shifting go 1,2,3,lockup,4th?

Or 1,2,3,lockup, unlock simultaneously as 4th shift occurs, lockup?

It seems to me once lockup occurs after 3rd it would stay locked up into 4th. Is this incorrect? 🤔🤷

Anyone have the spec on how/when ****fs and lockups occur. Also what effects it? Braking, accelerating, OD on/off?

Fwiw, in 3rd with lockup Nothing unlocks TC. I can brake and it does not unlock. The only time I lose lockup is when speed is to slow (30mph) or I turn OD on during driving.

I've also noticed twice now a long shift from 1st to 2nd. Or maybe it skipped 2nd and went 1st to 3rd. Both times it happened after toggling OD on/off and exiting hwy, coming to a stop then going again. Don't recall if OD was on or off🤦

I appreciate any help and direction. I'm going to see about getting my buddies scanner again. I've asked alot and he might be annoyed by now 🤣🤺🙅‍♀&#xfe0f ;
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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-06-2018, 09:29 PM
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It now doesn't even attempt 4th (as far as I can feel and see on rpm on scanguage).
So it doesn't shift to fourth, and then:
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I turn OD back off and it downshifts to 3rd and about 2 seconds later I have lockup.
If it never shifted to fourth how can it downshift?

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Does the shifting go 1,2,3,lockup,4th?
Or 1,2,3,lockup, unlock simultaneously as 4th shift occurs, lockup?
Either one is possible.

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It seems to me once lockup occurs after 3rd it would stay locked up into 4th. Is this incorrect?
It should partially unlock during the 3-4 shift. This feature never worked right.

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Anyone have the spec on how/when ****fs and lockups occur. Also what effects it? Braking, accelerating, OD on/off?
Shifting and lockup are mostly depedent on vehicle speed and pedal position. There are other factors, but those are the main ones.

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