Electrical Gremlin - Page 2 - Diesel Forum - TheDieselStop.com
'99 & up 7.3L Power Stroke Engine and Drivetrain Discussion of the '99 & up 7.3L Power Stroke diesel engine and drivetrain in the 1999-Up Super Duty trucks and Excursions. No gas engine discussion allowed except on transmissions and drivetrain that pertain to all models. Please confine discussion of topics in this forum to those items that are specific to the 7.3L Power Stroke engine.

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post #16 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-15-2018, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by OldSmoke View Post
Guessing a new tumbler?

Thx
That's twice you've suggested that - and twice Kevin has tried to explain this: The tumbler is a mechanical device with no electrical influence over the starter at all. In fact, the only electrical connection it has at all is that annoying key in ignition buzzer. It has a mechanical linkage to the ignition switch that is further down the column.

Now, if you want to get back to diagnostics, since you eliminated the post solenoid aspect by finding there was no voltage to the small terminal when it was acting up, then you can do some pinpoint tests. One would be the ignition switch itself. Here's the expected connections that are made in each key position. Use an ammeter to check these:


ignition switch.pdf

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IF MY BODY IS EVER FOUND ON A JOGGING TRAIL JUST KNOW THAT I WAS MURDERED SOMEWHERE ELSE AND DUMPED THERE
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post #17 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-15-2018, 01:37 PM
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That's twice you've suggested that - and twice Kevin has tried to explain this:
Yeah, I was wondering if he had me on "ignore". I'm not THAT annoying am I??

First truck -- 1929 Model A Ford pickup, restored from ground up. Wish I still had it!
'99.5 F250 PSD Supercab LB 4x4, ZF-6 w/SB Con OFE, 3.73LS, Boost & pyro gauges, Swamps S175/146 injectors, DP 80 HP Econo PCM (classic version
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post #18 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-15-2018, 02:01 PM Thread Starter
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Before you remove the fuse box, I'd check power input to the ignition switch. If you get good voltage there when you turn the key, then the problem is downstream (ignition switch itself, not the tumbler).

It is possible that when you turn the key on, it puts a load on the circuit which then opens at a corroded connection in the fuse box. I would clip a multimeter on the ignition switch input wire and observe it thru a few key-on cycles. If you get good consistent voltage, then don't bother with the fuse box. But if you get a glitch there, the fuse box should be what you check.

The fuse box isn't that easy to get out. The GEM is connected to it and it has at least two harness connectors with a bolt in each that have to be disconnected from the top. Otherwise, it's "just" the 4 bolts holding it to the dash structure.
Sorry, Not ignoring you at all. I just thought I covered that issue of already replacing the ignition module on my first post. Later, in the forum. I explained that the "grey"adapter plate installed on the box was broken. However I was still able to get the truck started with this issue. a new one is one the way. Defeating the fact that it has already been replaced..... and then replace with the original one "i thought was bad" to now the same problem. Just worse. NO power at all to start.
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post #19 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-15-2018, 05:39 PM
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And I specifically asked what you were referring to when you said "ignition module" - if, to you, the ignition module is the ignition switch, then that clarifies some things. An ignition module traditionally refers to a computer box that controls the ignition coils on a gasoline motor. Here's a link that might help- What is an Ignition Module? - crankSHIFT That's why none of us understood what you were trying to communicate with the "grey adapter plate".

So, now that some of the terminology is understood, I still think the way to track this down is divide and conquer. You say the switch has been replaced. That doesn't really narrow down much because the problem could still be whether voltage is getting to the switch or not versus whether the voltage is being blocked downstream from the switch. I would use the switch as the midpoint in this circuit and devise a test to determine which side the fault lies in.

I would put my test light on the input to the ignition switch. Then, you can see if the light is on or off when the problem occurs. If it is on, the problem lies in the switch or beyond. If it is off, the problem lies in the power to the switch. Then, devise a test to narrow it down further within the suspect circuit. You've got lots of components that could be at fault. The DTRS on the transmission (which incorporates the neutral safety switch), fuses, wiring, connectors, etc.

2003 F-250 XLT Crew Cab 7.3L, Chrome BigTex Grille Guard, Quad pillar - 3 ISSPRO gauges (trans, pyro, boost) and DP-Tuner F6; Roush fuel pressure / temperature / oil pressure gauges, Ford Severe Duty AIS, 31 row 6.0 transmission cooler, ScanGauge II, Marinco mod, Walker BTM, Full Force Stage 1 injectors

IF MY BODY IS EVER FOUND ON A JOGGING TRAIL JUST KNOW THAT I WAS MURDERED SOMEWHERE ELSE AND DUMPED THERE
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post #20 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-15-2018, 05:50 PM
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Ahh, ignition module-ignition switch- I get it now. When you turn the key to run, do all the lights come on as normal? When turned to start, does the dome light dim?

Have you tried pulling and reseating the fuses? There is also a CPP jumper that can put an end to the start circuit. It's just a loop that bypasses the clutch switch in an auto. The 12V for the start relay goes through that on it's way from the ignition switch to the relay. It might also be a good place to test for that missing 12V.

Does the truck start up if you put the key to run and then jump 12V to the small terminal of the starter relay?

Tom
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post #21 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-15-2018, 07:39 PM
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Here's the thread discussing fuse box teardown:

http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/...sembly-310910/

99.5 F250 7.3 PSD Supercab Shortbed 4x4 on 315 75 16s
Front leveling springs, Hutch and Harpoon mods, A pillar 3 gauge pod with DiPricol Trans, Boost and EGT, Scangauge II, CNC Fab HPOP and HPX lines, Riffraff FRX, 2004 Heated and Lighted mirrors
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post #22 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-15-2018, 08:03 PM
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Here's the thread discussing fuse box teardown:

http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/...sembly-310910/
HA! My old user name. Now if I can just remember the password.

Tom
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Triple Pillar Gauges; Fuel pres, Pyro, Boost
AE, Alldatadiy, and half a clue
- AKA "The Big White Truck"
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post #23 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-15-2018, 08:09 PM
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I'm happy to see others have found it useful. It is a whole lot cheaper than buying another box and less frustrating.

Tom
99.5 PS CC 4x4 SRW ZF-6
Triple Pillar Gauges; Fuel pres, Pyro, Boost
AE, Alldatadiy, and half a clue
- AKA "The Big White Truck"
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post #24 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-15-2018, 09:41 PM
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HA! My old user name. Now if I can just remember the password.
Tom,if you're using the same e-mail address, an admin can reset the password for you. Or shoot me a PM with your current e-mail and I can get someone to help you get back into your old account.
I suspected you were an old hand around here from your helpful posts.

First truck -- 1929 Model A Ford pickup, restored from ground up. Wish I still had it!
'99.5 F250 PSD Supercab LB 4x4, ZF-6 w/SB Con OFE, 3.73LS, Boost & pyro gauges, Swamps S175/146 injectors, DP 80 HP Econo PCM (classic version
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post #25 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-16-2018, 11:23 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by klhansen View Post
Before you remove the fuse box, I'd check power input to the ignition switch. If you get good voltage there when you turn the key, then the problem is downstream (ignition switch itself, not the tumbler).

It is possible that when you turn the key on, it puts a load on the circuit which then opens at a corroded connection in the fuse box. I would clip a multimeter on the ignition switch input wire and observe it thru a few key-on cycles. If you get good consistent voltage, then don't bother with the fuse box. But if you get a glitch there, the fuse box should be what you check.

The fuse box isn't that easy to get out. The GEM is connected to it and it has at least two harness connectors with a bolt in each that have to be disconnected from the top. Otherwise, it's "just" the 4 bolts holding it to the dash structure.
10-4

Will try this after I get back to the garage. Thanks.
Going to start here. I think this may be the solution...
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post #26 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-16-2018, 04:18 PM Thread Starter
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ok, wow-
so nothing. Maybe a blip for a 5 or 10 second count in aux mode. Nothing with the key to try and start. No lights. No anything.

Its a gremlin. I am sure of it!
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post #27 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-21-2018, 02:22 PM Thread Starter
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=update=

Went into and pulled the Gem. No obvious discoloration or corrosion on the lower part of the box (as so many are susceptible from leaks).
I went ahead and blew out all the residual road dust from years of work,...
Now to the main point of this update..

Originally, i updated you to my problem,.... as to what has been done. What I have done,.... What could be done. All times when I mentioned a NEW key tumbler... I was literally told it was wrong. "tried to explain this, twice"

IN FACT, YES. The vehicle needed a new tumbler because it was sticking... in start and in ACC mode. Sometimes it stuck on while turned off.

*This bulliten board in the sticky i should have read, but this one helped my issue.*


stock master

Article No.
03-20-5
10/13/03
^ DRIVEABILITY - NO START/REPEAT STARTER
FAILURE - REPEAT STARTER REPLACEMENT
^ ELECTRICAL - STICKING OR BINDING IGNITION
LOCK CYLINDER BETWEEN START AND RUN
^ ENGINE - STARTING - STARTER STAYING
ENGAGED AT START UP
FORD:
1999-2003 EXCURSION, SUPER DUTY F SERIES
This article supersedes TSB 02-19-4 to update the service procedures and service part information.
Issue
Some 1999-2003 SuperDuty and Excursion vehicles may exhibit the condition of starter staying engaged after releasing key from start position, repeat starter failure or a sticking/binding ignition lock cylinder. This may be due to:
^ An Ignition Lock. Cylinder Binding Not Fully Returning From Start To Run
^ Short Condition On Starter Relay Circuit 113 (YE/LB) Or 1093 (TN/RD)
^ Sticking Starter Relay
^ An Internal Short In The Power Distribution Junction Box (PDJB)
ACTION
If one of these conditions occur, inspect the starter and flywheel for damage and replace as necessary. Inspect the starter circuit for shorts including the Power Distribution Junction Box (PDJB) and verify proper cylinder lock function. Service as necessary. Use the following procedure to diagnose the starter circuit and system components.
SERVICE PROCEDURE
To check for short in the starter relay circuit 113:
1. Check terminal #2 at starter relay for voltage with key in run position (move key from "OFF" to "RUN") with the engine off. If voltage is present, locate and repair short. If no short detected, continue with Step 2.
2. With starter relay terminal #2 removed and vehicle in park, monitor voltage at starter relay terminal after cycling ignition from START to RUN (Do not assist key back to run position)..
a. If voltage is present after cycling key returns to Run position, Connect NGS/WDS or Scan Tool and monitor PIDS. Check for KEY_START and KEY_RUN. If the KEY_RUN PID is not seen after any KEY_START PID, the ignition cylinder lock is seizing and must be replaced.
^ For 1999-2001 vehicles, access the GEM (Generic Electronic Module) to view PIDS
^ For 2002-2003 vehicles, access the HEC (Hybrid Electronic Cluster) to view PIDS.
b. If key check is functioning properly and voltage is still present, check the starter relay for sticking by swapping with a known good relay and repeat Step 2.
NOTE IF ALL OF THE ABOVE CONDITIONS ARE VERIFIED FOR PROPER OPERATION, THE ISSUE MAY BE CAUSED BY AN INTERMITTENT BINDING CONDITION IN THE IGNITION CYLINDER LOCK. PROCEED WITH REPLACEMENT OF IGNITION SWITCH LOCK CYLINDER (11582).
IGNITION SWITCH LOCK CYLINDER REPLACEMENT PROCEDURE
1. Disconnect the battery ground cable and wait at least one minute.
2. Insert the ignition key and turn it to the RUN position.
3. Insert a punch into the access hole (located in the lower steering column shroud, below the lock cylinder) and press the release button while pulling out the ignition switch lock cylinder.
NOTE SOME VEHICLES DO NOT HAVE AN ACCESS HOLE AND REQUIRE LOWER SHROUD REMOVAL. REFER TO THE APPROPRIATE MODEL WORKSHOP MANUAL, IGNITION SWITCH LOCK CYLINDER REMOVAL AND INSTALLATION SECTION 211 IF ADDITIONAL DETAIL IS REQUIRED.
4. Install new Ignition Lock Cylinder and verify proper function.




DONE AND FIXED.....

*AndrewG
*Tinman13kup

You guys were awesome in just getting me those links so test out all my leads with my fluke tester. The Gem pictures and guide helped me deduct that this was not the issue, but great writeup for-sure. Thank you both for being nice.

oh yeah, if you dont know...
Welcome to guzzle's Ford PSD Web Pages

this is where you get good info everyone.

Last edited by klhansen; 01-21-2018 at 02:39 PM. Reason: removed personal insults
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post #28 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-21-2018, 02:45 PM
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I'm sorry you were lead astray by myself about the key cylinder. But frankly after reading back thru the entire thread I found your actual problem buried in your rambling posts, that the starter was sticking ON. I assumed, as did others that you were having trouble actually getting it started.
Clarity helps us help you.
Again, I apologize.

First truck -- 1929 Model A Ford pickup, restored from ground up. Wish I still had it!
'99.5 F250 PSD Supercab LB 4x4, ZF-6 w/SB Con OFE, 3.73LS, Boost & pyro gauges, Swamps S175/146 injectors, DP 80 HP Econo PCM (classic version
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