'01 7.3 complete rebuild. New injectors. Was running previously.
Cranks fine, no start. Fuel in bowl. No white smoke. Using original HPOP, new IPR valve. Serviced the "non-serviceable plug"...very carefully.
Crank rpm 170
ICP 240
IPR duty cycle 64
HPOP reservoir is full. When looking into the reservoir after cranking, there will be a rhythmic (every 1-2 seconds) "bubble" of oil that comes to the surface. Reservoir remains full.
I will change the new IPR back to the old, but I don't imagine that is the problem.
You have a oil leak somewhere or you have air trapped in the HPOP system try unplugging the icp sensor and cranking it. It should take several long cranks to refill the HPOP system mine took 3 and then started. You might try taking the icp sensor out to see if air is trapped at the front of the oil rail. Try scanning for codes is the cam position sensor new. What prompted the engine rebuild? Do you know what the pressure the HPOP would hold at wot.
You were able to get your duty cycle, have you done a buzz test to make sure the injectors work? I had a bad valve cover gasket causing one side to randomly fire. I also pulled the oil plugs out of the head and prefilled the head with oil. Next question would be, are the injectors spitting oil back out to the head? Maybe RT will chime in here, he helped me with mine.
You aren't building pressure in the HP oil system. You need a minimum of 500 psi to fire the injectors. Your IPR duty cycle is maxxed. It should be in the neighborhood of 35% or lower to start. There's a leak somewhere. Even if you have a bunch of air in the system, it should eventually compress it and build to 500 psi, but that's hard on the starter.
Filling the oil rails in the heads is a good idea. What I do after a change of injectors is to leave the glow plugs out and crank the engine with the starter. That takes a the load off the starter with no compression and you can hear/feel the starter load up when the pressure builds in the HP oil rails. After reinstalling the glow plugs, the engine usually fires with near-normal crank times. You still need to take it out and run the snot out of it for 30-40 minutes to purge all the air from the HP oil system.
How "very carefully" did you service the non-serviceable HPOP plug. If the ball is out of place, there's no way you'll build pressure. It may have to come back out to be rechecked if nothing else works. I helped out a guy who had crunched the ball and had a no-start because of it. Once he fixed that, it fired right up.
Low compression started the rebuild. Looks to me to have been run without air cleaner or a bad leak in a very dusty environment. Will not start with ICP disconnected. Have cranked it A LOT. Don't know what the pump would hold at WOT, but I remember seeing over 1700 with AE.
Hdaniels651
Did not do a buzz test. There is absolutely no attempt to fire and no fuel smell at the tailpipe.
klhansen and all
I filled the rails before installing the engine. Last night I cranked it and pulled the ICP sensor, rail about half full. I left the sensor cracked to vent the rail and cranked until oil seeped out. Tighten sensor and still nothing.
I have ordered the pieces to do a dead head test on the pump this weekend. The ball in the plug concerns me. I was CAREFUL, but sometimes things go bad even when they look good.
When I changed back to the old IPR, there was little to no oil that ran out. Is that a sign of anything?
So, I dead head the pump. Hook up the ICP and crank...240psi. Aha, it's the little ball. I pull the HPOP, put it on the bench, pull the IPR and there is the ball...behind the plug, sitting in it's little hole. Now what?
Could there be something else in the pump that is limiting flow? Reservoir gasket?
It's possible that your HPOP has coincidentally died, but that's fairly rare. You said you'd changed out the IPR, but maybe it's not working. If you have the old one that you knew worked, you might try swapping that in.
So I guess I will put the pump back in and carry on. I agree that it would be a huge coincidence if the pump happened to give up right now.
Before taking the pump out, I put the old IPR back in...no start. I also disconnected the ICP...no start.
Since I used the ICP to test the pump, is there any chance that it is bad even though it would not start with it disconnected? What about the pigtail to the ICP or the IPR?
I was sure that it was the ball, now I'm really stumped.
Did you install the oil rail drain plugs inside the valve covers?
Did you install the ball valve and spring and seat which does fall out some times during builds? Remember putting and taking out that seat? Ball doesn't seal well without it.
Did you install the two oil plugs for the lifters? New I hope.
All silly , you should have got all that , but maybe, just checking.
What is your fuel pressure?
You duty cycle is VERY high. Usually attributed to an oil leak on the High Pressure side.
Do the injectors spit oil while your cranking ?
If the injectors spit, they are firing, just a solenoid click is not a fire. Its a dry fire. So if they spit, then I would look for a fuel issue. Check your fuel pressure. If good, pull the covers and look for the spit. I suspect they don't spit, and you may see were your leak is if the seals on the rail plugs are gone or loose. You know the real tiny little plugs with o rings?? Not the giant ones on the ends of the rails and heads.
I wish I could get a mechanical gauge on the dead head pump test and not rely on the ICP, just to be sure.
School me on the ball valve and spring and seat, also the oil plug for the lifters. Machine shop did the short block build and the machine work on the heads.
I am having a hard time getting my mind past the high duty cycle and low ICP. I didn't want to take the valve covers back off, but maybe that is the next place to go.
IPR will have 12v if it making full pressure , maybe a voltage issue. Another member jumped 12 to the IPR to get max pressure for a test, and that worked. Hes still working on why hes not getting 12v.
If your fuel pressure is 100psi, then that's way too high, the ball and spring could be jammed up in the fuel bowl, and you may not be getting fuel past the bowl
The ball , seat and spring are a long shot, and now that I read your HPOP stays full, its irrelevant. It stops oil draining out of the HPOP when not running.
Still think you have a fuel issue. 100psi is way too much, should be around 60 - 65 max. The ball and spring in the filter bowl are the regulator to keep it at a constant 60-65psi.
Going under the passenger valve cover is not a big deal, and could tell you a lot. Expecially if those tiny plugs are leaking. It will not build pressure with a leak like that. And you can confirm your injectors are getting enough oil to spit. Id deal with the fuel pressure first, I bet the injectors have none.
Thanks for responding. Maybe my post was confusing, the HPOP is putting out the 100 psi.
This is with the pump dead headed, a mechanical gauge, IPR plugged in.
I was mistaken on the 10.7, the battery was low. I have charged the batteries and now I get 12.4 at the pigtail. I have also jumped the IPR to the battery (red to positive) and got no change in the pressure.
The truck was running when I disassembled it. I just think it would be a huge coincidence if the HPOP gave up on the rebuild.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think until I can get pressure from the HPOP nothing else matters.
Thanks for responding. Maybe my post was confusing, the HPOP is putting out the 100 psi.
This is with the pump dead headed, a mechanical gauge, IPR plugged in.
I was mistaken on the 10.7, the battery was low. I have charged the batteries and now I get 12.4 at the pigtail. I have also jumped the IPR to the battery (red to positive) and got no change in the pressure.
The truck was running when I disassembled it. I just think it would be a huge coincidence if the HPOP gave up on the rebuild.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think until I can get pressure from the HPOP nothing else matters.
If you have more leak volume than you have pump volume then you can build some HP oil pressure but not reach the minimum pressure for IDM to be commanded to operate the injectors. Cranking over with valve covers off as suggested already is your next diagnostic step that is easy. A cut seal when sliding injector down in head is all it takes.
I don't have a lot of experience here. I have, to my knowledge, isolated the HPOP and I can't get it to make pressure. Will allowing it access to the downstream components correct this inability of the pump to generate pressure? I just don't see how that can be.
My wife thinks I left a rag stuck in a hole somewhere.
Guess it's a long shot, but as you probably know, after your rebuild. There are 2 different gaskets for the hpop. If you have installed the wrong one, it's just like losing the little ball. No pressure. Any chance you put the wrong one on. Most rebuild kits come with both. Mine did, and had a big warning on that bag to make sure I used the right one. A chance I guess.
That has crossed my mind a couple of times. I read something somewhere about two different gaskets. There was no warning and I honestly don't remember if there were two in the kit. I think I still have the leftovers. I'll look when I get home. Thanks for another trail. I have always felt that it was something goofy that I overlooked or put together incorrectly.
The newer trucks, not sure years, have the gasket with the blocked port, older ones use the large open port in the same spot. I think. Lol been 4 years since I did it. You can check with your serial number. But an 01 woukd be a newer model I believe.
Yes, you don't make pressure, you pump a volume and if there is less leak than input then pressure builds. If you have any leak then you will not have pressure PERIOD. You will see IPR signal ramp up as that is what the PCM does to try to get pressure build by stopping the controlled leak through IPR. WHen you do not build operating threshold pressure you make sure you have no leaks. Since it was fine before disassembly, the pump being faulty goes down or off the the list. The oil res having oil in it should assure the pump has supply. If there is something that has hung an injector open then that can be seen with valve covers off too. The exhaust of 7.3 injectors is under that aluminum upside down chute on the inboard side of injector as it mounts into head. Under cranking before it builds pressure there should be no oil coming out in that area.
So, I hung my hopes on the gasket. The old gasket was not in the pile of old gaskets, but I did have another one in the new box. This was before klhansen's post. New gasket (the wrong one) obviously made no difference. I had the correct one installed initially.
I have tried to "bench test" the IPR valves according to youtube videos and I can't make either one that I have seem to close when I apply voltage. One is the old valve, the other is out of the box.
So, I pull the pump and study it. On the mounting face are 2 bolt holes, the high pressure bypass, the IPR overflow, the little ball hole and the pump inlet. With the pump primed, and turning the pump with a drill motor, no pressure builds and all the oil comes out the IPR overflow. I try to activate the IPR with 12 volts and it makes no difference, all pressure bleeds off through the IPR overflow.
I block the IPR overflow hole and I can build pressure. This tells me something is still not right in the IPR area. Should I be able to close the IPR with 12 volts and build pressure? My uneducated thought is yes.
However, in pressuring up the pump, I realize that the pump shaft seal is leaking. The leaking oil is old oil, telling me that the pump has not, in spite of all the cranking, cleared the old oil. I think I am going to use this as a sign to get a new pump. I just think that is the smart thing to do at this point. Again, this truck was running when I tore it down.
I am still interested thoughts on why I can't get the IPR valve to shut and build pressure, if anyone has any thoughts.
So, I hung my hopes on the gasket. The old gasket was not in the pile of old gaskets, but I did have another one in the new box. This was before klhansen's post. New gasket (the wrong one) obviously made no difference. I had the correct one installed initially.
I have tried to "bench test" the IPR valves according to youtube videos and I can't make either one that I have seem to close when I apply voltage. One is the old valve, the other is out of the box.
So, I pull the pump and study it. On the mounting face are 2 bolt holes, the high pressure bypass, the IPR overflow, the little ball hole and the pump inlet. With the pump primed, and turning the pump with a drill motor, no pressure builds and all the oil comes out the IPR overflow. I try to activate the IPR with 12 volts and it makes no difference, all pressure bleeds off through the IPR overflow.
I block the IPR overflow hole and I can build pressure. This tells me something is still not right in the IPR area. Should I be able to close the IPR with 12 volts and build pressure? My uneducated thought is yes.
However, in pressuring up the pump, I realize that the pump shaft seal is leaking. The leaking oil is old oil, telling me that the pump has not, in spite of all the cranking, cleared the old oil. I think I am going to use this as a sign to get a new pump. I just think that is the smart thing to do at this point. Again, this truck was running when I tore it down.
I am still interested thoughts on why I can't get the IPR valve to shut and build pressure, if anyone has any thoughts.
I can’t way in on the pump testing. But I can offer my opinion on a new pump I go with a adrenaline pump from Dieselsite I have had mine several years and does not miss a beat and holds awesome oil pressure.
Check the coil on your IPRs with an ohmmeter. IIRC it should be between 5 and 20 ohms. If it's infinite (open circuit), the coil is bad. One of the techs on here cautioned not to put 12V continuous for very long as it could burn out the coil. He said it was for a quick check only.
So, it turned out to be two things. One is n embarrassment and the other was found because of the embarrassing mistake.
The mistake. When I took the IPR out initially, I made no mental note of how it went together. Where the spacer went. There are two ways. The right way and the wrong way. The new IPR was not assembled in the box. I put it together in what seemed to me to be the right way. Nope. I figured this out when I ran across a picture in my internet travels. Both the new and the old coils ohmed out in range. They just don't work if you assemble them incorrectly.
The second thing was that, due to my lack of attention, I spent a long time troubleshooting that ended up pressuring up the pump with a drill motor and the pump dead headed. The seal on the pump leaked profusely. Since it leaks back into the motor, you never see it unless you have the pump on the bench.
Word to those that might not know. From what I understand, the AE IPR duty cycle is a "command" function, The PCM is telling the IPR to deliver that cycle. It doesn;t mean the the IPR is doing it.
Smooth seas never made a good sailor and I learned a lot on this one. Truck runs like a top. Now on to the weird auto trans issue that has cropped up.
Thanks again for all the insight.
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