Will a DIY Tymar upgrade cause turbo surge? - Diesel Forum - TheDieselStop.com
'99 & up Upgrades and Aftermarket - 7.3L Engine Upgrading or adding OEM or aftermarket equipment to your 1999-Up Super Duty or Excursion with 7.3L Power Stroke diesel engine. Please confine discussion of topics in this forum to those items that are specific to the 7.3L Power Stroke engine.

 
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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-22-2006, 10:48 PM Thread Starter
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Will a DIY Tymar upgrade cause turbo surge?

I'm suffering from the broken tab on the airbox syndrome and I'm also needing to replace the K&N filter that came on my truck when I bought it. Everything else related to the motor is stock except for the CCV mod. I'm thinking seriously about the DIY Tymar that many have done.

My question is...Will the open air element intake cause turbo surge? Enought to be bad? I'm really not wanting to go down the "once-you-change-this-ya-gotta-change-that-too" road. Meaning, I don't want to have to change my turbo or housing just for trying to keep dirt out of my motor. (And by the way, doesn't an early build 99 already have a Wicked Wheel in it? Thought I read that somewhere.)

I'm just wanting to protect the inside of my motor and have a normal running 7.3. How about a stock paper filter with duct tape around the top of the box? Is that too simple. Suggestions appreciated. Remember, I don't need 400 horsepower just yet.

Early 99 F350 4X4 CC 7.3 Auto. A.R.E. Topper, bed carpet/bench inserts, Rhino grill guard, AIS w/sleeve, Fuel filler mod, GOS headlight harness, 02-04 Headlights, Rancho HD stabilizer, 06 Telescoping/heated mirrors with C-Btr Mirrors, Hella FF1000, Htr Bypass valve, front receiver hitch, Quadzilla XZT gauges, ITP Pre-pump/In-tank mods, Pioneer P5000UB w/XM radio, 4 Infinity Kappa 682.7cf, Fumoto valve, FIAMM Highway blaster horns, SS HPX, IDM mod, DP F5 (Stock,Drive-thru,60T,80E,120,80E-Mountain,1200), Walker BTM, RR, Dieselsite BRV, BTS Tranny (2nd one :-), 31 row tranny cooler, Bilstein shocks, Amsoil bypass oil filter, Stancor HD Glow Plug Relay, billet thermostat housing, front & rear parking cameras, Aux reverse lights, Heated Seats.

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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-23-2006, 12:39 AM
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Re: Will a DIY Tymar upgrade cause turbo surge?

[ QUOTE ]
Remember, I don't need 400 horsepower just yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

You just wait! You will have PMS very soon. I think you would be fine. Do you have a chip or programmer? If you don't then you should be fine with no surge. No problem. But with the early 99 you do have that special wheel in it. But I do think your turbo is little different than the newer ones. So I am not totally positive on it. I am sure someone will chip in some more info...
Have a good thanksgiving,
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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-23-2006, 12:45 AM
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Re: Will a DIY Tymar upgrade cause turbo surge?

No, but it will let you hear it better if/when it does surge.
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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-23-2006, 06:25 AM
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Re: Will a DIY Tymar upgrade cause turbo surge?

[ QUOTE ]
I'm suffering from the broken tab on the airbox syndrome and I'm also needing to replace the K&N filter that came on my truck when I bought it. Everything else related to the motor is stock except for the CCV mod. ................. Suggestions appreciated. Remember, I don't need 400 horsepower just yet.

[/ QUOTE ]Well it you are looking for the best filtration, it is a paper filter and the Motorcraft Severe Duty AIS is the best of the best. About $200 from www.powerstrokeshop.com with free shipping for the holidays. Flows more than the OEM box and filters better.

2002 F350 Lariat CC 4x4 Auto 4.10 DRW, DP-Tuner F5 live tuned stock, quiet, 40dd, 40, 60, 80 tow, 80e and 120r, B&W GN, BrakeSmart, 'pooned tank, tank and pre-pump mods, 2 Dahl 100 filter, regulated return, BTS dual HPOP, AC singles with EDM 34 lpm nozzles, AIS, H2e, Spearco 6.0 IC, Hypermax 3.5" dp--> MBRP 4" 304SS exhaust, BTS tranny, 203 T-stat, Chevron ELC, Oilguard bypass with Schaeffer 9000, WranglerNW 200 amp alternator, Nippon-Denso starter, SPA gauges, SteveRacer mods, Hella 80/100W 9007s, Hella Micro DE foglights, 1000FF driving lights, 220W backup lights, Stancor contactor, X-Springs, Bilstein shox, custom bumpers but otherwise stock. Nov 30 '99 build engine with 16 K miles, Fluidampr, Comp Cam 910 springs, Melling LPOP and ARP headstuds but otherwise stock.
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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-23-2006, 07:25 AM
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Re: Will a DIY Tymar upgrade cause turbo surge?

I have an early 99 and an actual TYMAR setup (not homemade), I have no stall/surge issues whatsoever.

2001 F-250 PSD Crew Cab short bed, 4x4 Lariet, only 97k miles bone stock for now

previous trucks:
2001 F-250 PSD CC SWB 4" lift, 315's, DP Tuner..
late '99 F-350 PSD CC LWB 4" lift, 315's, DP......
early '99 F-250 PSD SC SWB short shifted 6-speed, 5" stacks, 5.5" lift, 4.30 gears, DP Tuner, etc....
1997 F-350 PSD 4x4, 4" lift, 35's, Superchips tuner


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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-23-2006, 08:01 AM
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Re: Will a DIY Tymar upgrade cause turbo surge?

[ QUOTE ]
No, but it will let you hear it better if/when it does surge.

[/ QUOTE ] I agree with this, it WONT cause surge/stall..but when you have it you will hear it.

[ QUOTE ]
I have an early 99 and an actual TYMAR setup (not homemade), I have no stall/surge issues whatsoever.

[/ QUOTE ] Hard to belive, because when I put it on my early 99, I had the "WHOOSH" on hard acceleration, and shifting, or if you just reved it and let off quick. THAT IS NORMAL, and does it even with stock boxes, you just cant hear it. (Terminoligy seems to flip and flop,) For some,
ILUVSTEELIES has one of the best definitions I think I have read on here..
[ QUOTE ]
TURBO STALL is the formation of local flow deficits that rotate around the compressor. Flow deficits or cells are a region in which local mass flow is near zero. These cells rotate at an angular speed which is a fraction of the rotor speed.

English version: Each compressor blade pushes an equal amount of air through the turbo. If, for some reason, one or more blades push less air, then a low flow area is created. This low flow, or flow deficit, does not pass through the compressor, but spins with it at a slower speed than the compressor is spinning. The blades, spinning faster, pass through this low flow cell and drop their air load and upon exiting the cell pick up the load. This loading and unloading of the compressor blades, fatigues the blades and results in possible failure. It can also push the compressor in to a surge condition.

TURBO SURGE is the axis symmetrical oscillation of flow through the compressor that can include reverse flow.

English version: The normal flow of air through the turbo compressor wheel is slowed and/or reversed, then accelerated back to normal. These repeating oscillation cycles cause uneven thrust loads on the bearings and if the oscillations hit a harmonic frequency of the compressor blades, they can cause blade damage.

The quick and easy version for the rest of us: Turbo stall is the loss of normal air flow through the turbo compressor wheel in certain areas of the compressor wheel, and if the area gets large enough, can lead to turbo surge. Turbo surge is repeated momentary loss and then recovery of all normal air flow through whole compressor wheel.


Turbo stall on our trucks is hard for some ears to pick up. It sounds akin to your household water hose when you get air trapped in the line or when you get water in your compressor air line. That spitting type sound. This usually occurs when your running very close to the surge line just before the turbo goes into a full surge condition.

Surge is the classic psssst psssst psssst noise under constant load that people describe or the woosh between shifts.

The woosh between shifts is not bad because you are not at a boost level where the cycling is going to damage the turbo.

At constant load surge however, you can cause turbo bearing damage or running just shy of the surge line.

It's a bit more complicated than this, but basically think of your turbos blades as wings. As your boost pressure comes up, the RPM of the turbo and airflow out of the turbo are not linear.

The turbo blades are still still trying to grab the same amount of air with every turn but airflow out of the turbo is falling off in relation to it's rotational speed.

This causes the air just outside and slightly inside of the turbo blades to rotate with the wheel and just like how an airplane wing would loose lift if a tailwind that matched the speed of the plane suddenly blew into it from behind, your turbo blades loose their lift.

As a consequence you hear a bang or woosh as your compressed intake charge pops out to atmosphere for a second, wheel speed goes very high, once boost pressure falls below the surge line the intake re-pressurises (please note you only loose just a few lbs of boost and thats why your needle fluctuates) and the whole cycle repeats itself until you back out of the throttle enough to get below the surge line.

It's a bit more complicated, but basically the WW is just a lower trim wheel that will make higher pressure at a lower flow before it surges (akin to a boat propeller with a shallower pitch) and the ATS housing just bleeds off some of the air from the inducer so that flow won't stall and your turbo blades won't loose their lift.


[/ QUOTE ]

Jim T.*48* SLAPS Co-Founder, 30.8 yrs RETIRED UAW 6/01/06, Now an ART (Specialists Flight Chief) with the USAFR 414th MXS Seymour Johnson AFB.
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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-23-2006, 01:34 PM
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Re: Will a DIY Tymar upgrade cause turbo surge?

I have a friend with a 2000 PSD and a DP Tuner and he definalty has surge/stall. my turbo has NEVER made any of the noises his does. maybe I'm just lucky.

2001 F-250 PSD Crew Cab short bed, 4x4 Lariet, only 97k miles bone stock for now

previous trucks:
2001 F-250 PSD CC SWB 4" lift, 315's, DP Tuner..
late '99 F-350 PSD CC LWB 4" lift, 315's, DP......
early '99 F-250 PSD SC SWB short shifted 6-speed, 5" stacks, 5.5" lift, 4.30 gears, DP Tuner, etc....
1997 F-350 PSD 4x4, 4" lift, 35's, Superchips tuner


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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-24-2006, 10:27 PM
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Re: Will a DIY Tymar upgrade cause turbo surge?

ive got a tymar, btm, adn 6 position. 135k of HARD HARD miles.

yup, hte overall combo surges once in a while when im being ignorant with the 6 speed adn big loads.

but im not overly worried. replacement turbos are like 500 bucks or something, and my turbo seems as good as new.
guys sure seem to spend a LOT of money curing something that doesnt seem to hurt anything.

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Pizza cutter tires, Tymar, BTM, DP

If it don't run, chrome it.
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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-25-2006, 07:03 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Will a DIY Tymar upgrade cause turbo surge?

Well...I went ahead and ordered the AIS Ford replacement filter system to go with a good system with less likelyhood of the dreaded surge. Thanks to all!

Early 99 F350 4X4 CC 7.3 Auto. A.R.E. Topper, bed carpet/bench inserts, Rhino grill guard, AIS w/sleeve, Fuel filler mod, GOS headlight harness, 02-04 Headlights, Rancho HD stabilizer, 06 Telescoping/heated mirrors with C-Btr Mirrors, Hella FF1000, Htr Bypass valve, front receiver hitch, Quadzilla XZT gauges, ITP Pre-pump/In-tank mods, Pioneer P5000UB w/XM radio, 4 Infinity Kappa 682.7cf, Fumoto valve, FIAMM Highway blaster horns, SS HPX, IDM mod, DP F5 (Stock,Drive-thru,60T,80E,120,80E-Mountain,1200), Walker BTM, RR, Dieselsite BRV, BTS Tranny (2nd one :-), 31 row tranny cooler, Bilstein shocks, Amsoil bypass oil filter, Stancor HD Glow Plug Relay, billet thermostat housing, front & rear parking cameras, Aux reverse lights, Heated Seats.

Security: CrimeGuard Alarm with remote notification, DIY jimmi-jammers, door cylinder locks and linkage removed, padlocked rear bench seat hinge, PCM, DIY "pitstop" switch.
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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-25-2006, 10:11 PM
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Re: Will a DIY Tymar upgrade cause turbo surge?

[ QUOTE ]
Well...I went ahead and ordered the AIS Ford replacement filter system to go with a good system with less likelyhood of the dreaded surge. Thanks to all!

[/ QUOTE ] Not a bad choice , but fearing surge with a Tymar or eqivlent filter is not right! As mentioned above several times, THE FILTER doesnt cause it,

Jim T.*48* SLAPS Co-Founder, 30.8 yrs RETIRED UAW 6/01/06, Now an ART (Specialists Flight Chief) with the USAFR 414th MXS Seymour Johnson AFB.
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post #11 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-26-2006, 07:14 AM
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Re: Will a DIY Tymar upgrade cause turbo surge?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well...I went ahead and ordered the AIS Ford replacement filter system to go with a good system with less likelyhood of the dreaded surge. Thanks to all!

[/ QUOTE ] Not a bad choice , but fearing surge with a Tymar or eqivlent filter is not right! As mentioned above several times, THE FILTER doesnt cause it,

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, if you have surge after installing a filter, it's not the filters fault, the surge was always there, it's just you can hear it now!

2001 F-250 PSD Crew Cab short bed, 4x4 Lariet, only 97k miles bone stock for now

previous trucks:
2001 F-250 PSD CC SWB 4" lift, 315's, DP Tuner..
late '99 F-350 PSD CC LWB 4" lift, 315's, DP......
early '99 F-250 PSD SC SWB short shifted 6-speed, 5" stacks, 5.5" lift, 4.30 gears, DP Tuner, etc....
1997 F-350 PSD 4x4, 4" lift, 35's, Superchips tuner


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post #12 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-26-2006, 10:59 AM
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Re: Will a DIY Tymar upgrade cause turbo surge?

That is a great filter choice!! I have a homemade tymar on mine but would move to a tymar with no problems. You get great filtration, cold air, and good flow.
DENNY

Early 1999 F350 AUTO 4x4 CC LB DRW 4.10 6.0 trans cooler, Front hitch, 2,000 hubs/ brakes, Bilstein shocks/steering stabilizer, Diesel site coolant filter 203 thermostat, EBV delete, new O-rings, new Oil cooler, RIFF RAFF FRX, Glow plug led, Pillar gauges, Lighted cupholder, Painless wiring fuze block, Harpoon/hutch mods, Removed axle blocks. Air bags, 5 wheel hitch, In bed 7 pin plug. Spare tire key delete. KLHANSEN on speed dial. 75,000 as of May 2019
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post #13 of 13 (permalink) Old 11-26-2006, 11:22 AM
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Re: Will a DIY Tymar upgrade cause turbo surge?

[ QUOTE ]
Turbo stall on our trucks is hard for some ears to pick up. It sounds akin to your household water hose when you get air trapped in the line or when you get water in your compressor air line. That spitting type sound. This usually occurs when your running very close to the surge line just before the turbo goes into a full surge condition.

Surge is the classic psssst psssst psssst noise under constant load that people describe or the woosh between shifts.

The woosh between shifts is not bad because you are not at a boost level where the cycling is going to damage the turbo.

At constant load surge however, you can cause turbo bearing damage or running just shy of the surge line.


[/ QUOTE ]

I am still curious about turbo surge .. occasionally I get something similar that I have always taken to be surge but I could be wrong .because when i read the description above turbo surge seems more subtle or quiet.

mine is more random but always between 1600~1900 rpms and usually when I use heavy throttle but not floored say 75%..but it feels more like a sneeze especially between gears where the boost def. drops but goes back almost like the transmission slipped but still pulls. and I never seem to notice it with the pedal to the floor take offs etc which leads me to think if it was the tranny it would be worst.
so I am hoping it is the... The woosh between shifts is not bad because you are not at a boost level where the cycling is going to damage the turbo. what do you think.

early 99 f350 4x4 crew cab
work in progress
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