Same Newb-Different question! Ignition Switch - Page 2 - Diesel Forum - TheDieselStop.com
7.3L IDI Diesels (Not Power Strokes) Technical discussion of topics related to vehicles powered by the 7.3 Liter In-Direct Injection Navistar engines.

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post #16 of 73 (permalink) Old 12-17-2017, 02:24 PM
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I have a couple of different things in my box for locating shorts. VOM, DC Amp meter, good old test light. Rigged up a 30A auto reset circuit breaker that I can plug into a fuse slot, and a gauge that uses the fuse slot with a 30A fuse. It will display amps being drawn.
RV 12V wing can be a nightmare, it seems no 2 are alike, and it amazes me how many different things they put on a 15A circuit.
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post #17 of 73 (permalink) Old 12-18-2017, 09:25 AM
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Rigged up a 30A auto reset circuit breaker that I can plug into a fuse slot
That's a good idea for sure.
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RV 12V wiring can be a nightmare, it seems no 2 are alike
Same with horse and stock trailers. Most of my rodeo/team roping friends knew what I did for a living (nowadays I hide the fact) so I ended up doing a lot of wiring repairs. Color codes meant nothing, same with what wire was where in the tlr. plug. That, plus most of them had cobbled up the wiring on their own. I guess the late trailers are somewhat standard.

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post #18 of 73 (permalink) Old 12-18-2017, 10:43 AM
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That's a good idea for sure.

Same with horse and stock trailers. Most of my rodeo/team roping friends knew what I did for a living (nowadays I hide the fact) so I ended up doing a lot of wiring repairs. Color codes meant nothing, same with what wire was where in the tlr. plug. That, plus most of them had cobbled up the wiring on their own. I guess the late trailers are somewhat standard.
A lot of times when friends and relatives would ask me to help them with a wiring problem with their stock trailers or even flatbeds I would start by just looking at the wiring. 90% of the time I would just rip everything out and start all over. I'd use conduit for the run from the plug all the way back to the taillights. And if they liked to tear things out I would even place a electrical box under them that I would run the conduit into and then conduit out to the lights on the fenders. It would usually take a day to get it all done but when I was done it was done.

Also as I am sure that you know that the vast majority of light problems on trailers is a bad ground. People use the ball mount for the ground instead of a dedicated wire through the plug which causes a lot of their problems.
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post #19 of 73 (permalink) Old 12-18-2017, 05:05 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks a LOT to everyone that is on this thread, reading my poorly written info, and offering advice.

I spent about 2 days of an hour or two at a time, then a break to clear my head, then an hour or so more, then a break, then some computer time to look up wiring harnesses and possible issues, then back to the truck trying to figure out which wire is coming out of the link and started with which wire at the other end, etc.

This morning I went out and made sure I had a good ground connection on my test light, so I could start testing some other stuff.

However, I made an on the spot decision to simply check ALL of the fuses and replace them, just in case some auxillary thing had blown affecting my problem.

Well, took a couple out that looked okay, replaced them. Took out the one for 2-peed rear end/cigar lighter (neither of which this rig has), and it didn't look broken, but did have a small dark spot like it had lit itself up, so I changed it. I hesitantly turned the key on and VOILA! Back to life. So, as always with me, if I try to do something myself, it never works. But if I take the time to do research, it turns out WRONG! It is labeled as the rear end/lighter on the best fuse box chart I found on-line, and on my fuse box itself, but is apparently the ignition switch feed.

https://ww2-secure.justanswer.com/up...35_Ch1pg14.JPG

It is in the E1 slot, not the F1 slot!

Oh, well! I am happy it is working, though it would have been nice to fix it in 5 minutes, as opposed to 3 days. But, I did learn a lot and got to test my patience, so I'm looking at it as a win, because I did not NEED the truck to be running during its "down time." NOW I can plan to go pick up my latest purchase-a 1967 International Travelall Ambulance!

Thanks again for all the help!
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post #20 of 73 (permalink) Old 12-18-2017, 09:45 PM
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Best lessons are the ones hard learned!!
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post #21 of 73 (permalink) Old 12-19-2017, 10:56 AM
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Ahem! Owner's manual Cough!
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post #22 of 73 (permalink) Old 12-19-2017, 11:38 AM
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NOW I can plan to go pick up my latest purchase-a 1967 International Travelall Ambulance!
Must have a gas engine? Back in the day I've done major surgery on all sizes of the IH truck gas engines and they're double-tough internally. However, they don't win any points when it comes to good fuel mileage.

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post #23 of 73 (permalink) Old 12-19-2017, 04:14 PM Thread Starter
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Ahem! Owner's manual Cough!


Ahem! The diagram I posted (that was wrong) was FROM the owner's manual! Cough!
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post #24 of 73 (permalink) Old 12-19-2017, 04:21 PM Thread Starter
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Must have a gas engine? Back in the day I've done major surgery on all sizes of the IH truck gas engines and they're double-tough internally. However, they don't win any points when it comes to good fuel mileage.
Yep-original 304. I've probably had about 30-50 IH Light Line vehicles over the years. Quite honestly, maybe more, but I lost track. I've found when tuned up and equipped right (and I actually try to stay all original on components, but try to get them tuned in as well as possible), they are not nearly as bad as reputed. And for the payoff of their durability and the fact that they don't seem to LOSE as much fuel efficiency when towing, as well as the fact they weigh a lot and are thus, GREAT for towing, I think they are nominally worse at gas mileage than most of their counterparts.

I once wrote an essay about my first IH (1968 Travelall, 1100 series 4x4, 345, 4-speed), that it was the constant in the theory of relativity, because it was an undeniable constant in fuel economy. It would get 12-14 MPG going down a Mountain, with the wind at your back, and would get 12-14 MPG going back up the same Mountain, into a hurricane headwind towing 10,000 lbs.

But, your experiences may differ! I've heard a lot of people argue the other side.
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post #25 of 73 (permalink) Old 12-19-2017, 11:19 PM
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Ahem! The diagram I posted (that was wrong) was FROM the owner's manual! Cough!
Eek, I stand corrected! I just figured that was a page from a Chilton or Haynes book; we all know how complete and accurate those are.....
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post #26 of 73 (permalink) Old 12-20-2017, 06:06 AM Thread Starter
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Now for the UPDATE!

Yes, I'M BACK-and not in a good way! Kind of Like Jason in "Friday the 13th, Part 13" or something.

Went out today to wire up trailer lights, and check out the exhaust break and maybe start in on the Glow Plug Circuit in earnest, but ran into a small issue!

Turned key on, normal buzzes and dash lights. Turned to START, and, again everything goes DEAD!

Different set of conditions tested out this time, though. See below:

So, as I said, first start of the day. Everything has been working fine for the 10-15 times I have started it since changing the fuse the other day. Everything starts off normal. Turn key first click, to "run." All is normal. Turn key the next, spring loaded bit of a turn and all dash lights and buzzers, etc, go off. NO juice anywhere that is apparent without a test light. I, of course, sit in shock, just staring at the dash. Key off, back on, NOTHING. NO dash lights, no buzzers, etc. I leave the key in the on position while trying to jiggle fuses and the wires to the switch, etc. NOTHING. I get out to get my test light, and at some point, without me touching anything, the dash comes back to life. Hmmm... So, I let it be alive for a few seconds, then try to turn it to START again. DEAD! Kills all the dash lights and buzzers again. I keep turning key, jiggling wires again, take out and put back in fuses again. They look good (the 2 I played with last time). I replace the one that fixed it last time-nothing. So, I get the test light out and start testing and tracing. This time, things are different. GREAT! A whole new problem to trace!

So, last time, if you recall, there was NO JUICE to the ignition switch.
This time, there IS juice to the switch in the "Off" and "Acc" positions, but when I turn it to "On," it kills the power to the switch. I go back and test the power at the places I had tested it the other day. Same result. When key is Off or in Acc, there is juice to the starter, GPR, Post on the upper driver's side firewall, solenoid next to it, and the solenoid inside the firewall near the fuse box, but when I turn the key on, ALL of these places "lose" their juice. So, my gut reaction is that the switch is bad and causing a bad ground internally? The only odd thing is, with the last round of problems, the headlights were working, though nothing else seemed to be. This time, it seems the headlights are not working at all-key on, key off, doesn't matter-no headlights.

My initial reaction was that the key/ignition switch must be bad. I ran in town to the parts store and got a replacement, but then the headlight issue kept bothering me. I'm now wondering if maybe something in the headlight circuit is causing the bigger, badder "short."

Or, of course, there is always the possibility and option that 2 things simultaneously blew up on me...?

So, before I install this key switch, I thought I'd ask here. Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions? New Curse words to try out?

I will likely go down and check ALL the fuses again-which I didn't do, as I was feeling more confident it was the ignition switch at first, but the headlight issue started creeping into the back of my head more and more, soooo...

Can a bad key switch short out the WHOLE system, for lack of a better way to word that question?

Thanks again! Have fun with me again, this time!
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post #27 of 73 (permalink) Old 12-20-2017, 10:14 AM
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That's the classic symptom of bad battery terminals. When cold, they make enough contact to supply voltage at nearly 0 current draw (Amps). But when a load is applied, the small point of contact overheats, oxidizing or vaporizing the Lead, breaking the circuit. Sometimes it will re-make contact as it cools, but other times simply touching or jarring the terminal makes contact again.

WithOUT disturbing any more than necessary, start as I said before at the battery POSTS checking for voltage, and moving SLOWLY along the harness toward the ig.sw.


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post #28 of 73 (permalink) Old 12-20-2017, 02:14 PM Thread Starter
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That's the classic symptom of bad battery terminals. When cold, they make enough contact to supply voltage at nearly 0 current draw (Amps). But when a load is applied, the small point of contact overheats, oxidizing or vaporizing the Lead, breaking the circuit. Sometimes it will re-make contact as it cools, but other times simply touching or jarring the terminal makes contact again.

WithOUT disturbing any more than necessary, start as I said before at the battery POSTS checking for voltage, and moving SLOWLY along the harness toward the ig.sw.
Okay, Steve-I will do it this way again. And thanks for hanging with me through this (new but similar) struggle. I DID go out and buy a new multimeter (even though I said I really didn't want to before), so can test with more than just the test light.

Question is, am I supposed to do this with the key off, on ACC, or on RUN? As I said, there is juice TO the switch when off or on ACC, but when turned to RUN is when it goes dead. So I am assuming that I need to test when it is on RUN. However, as I said, there is NO juice showing even to the starter with the smallest, simplest of test lights doing the testing, when the key is on RUN. So do I need to test every 2' of the positive cable from the battery to the starter? Are you therefore thinking it is a bad (+) cable from the battery to the starter?

FWIW, terminals and terminal clamps/cable ends have both been cleaned at least 2x in the past 3 weeks, and the batteries were brand new at that time-had never been attached to another vehicle.
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post #29 of 73 (permalink) Old 12-20-2017, 03:42 PM
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The key doesn't really matter; do it while the symptom is present. So you might need to leave the door open so you can see the courtesy lights while testing. Or the headlights.

There is no distance to check - check each point where something could change, like from the battery POST to the battery TERMINAL (on the cable); and then from the terminal to anywhere along the cable (stabbing through the insulation); and then from the cable to the crimped ring terminal at the other end; ring terminal to starter relay stud... If you jump 6' and the voltage is the same, then there was nothing worth checking in that 6'. If you make a jump (no matter what size), and the voltage goes from ~12 (B+) to ~0 (or any substantial change), jump BACKWARD about half as far until you pinpoint the fault.

"New" and "clean" are relative terms, and "new" doesn't mean much anyway. And without seeing the battery terminals, and knowing exactly what surfaces you cleaned, that doesn't tell me much, either. Read all those captions, and test your truck. If you don't understand something you see or find, post SEVERAL pics of it so we can all help you.


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post #30 of 73 (permalink) Old 12-20-2017, 06:24 PM
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Steve is right do what he said

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