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post #16 of 41 (permalink) Old 09-30-2019, 12:16 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ArcticDriver View Post
Out of curiosity, what is the micron rating of your Amsoil oil filter? Or P/N?

That report is very impressive for 25K-mile OCI.
EAO98

98.7% @ 20microns

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Originally Posted by ArcticDriver View Post
Have you ever had a VOA performed on your chosen Amsoil product to learn how much Silicon is present prior to use?
Amsoil should be able to provide this value.
Google search yielded

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forum...Signature_Seri

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Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
One thing to consider is age of filter in and out of use. If you only drive 5,000 mi a year that means 5 years that the glue in the filter has to keep working. I know Cummins is very concerned about filter shelf life. I never did ask AMSOIL filter life but it might be worth it if you are going to keep them on for longer than a year.
DENNY
My truck was purchased in Nov 17 and this week I will hit 90k, I dont believe I will have this problem.

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Originally Posted by jimmy View Post
In my shop experience has shown over and over that there are no savings when you save money on oil changes. You end up paying for it with more oil leaks if nothing else.
Seeing how long you go on oil strikes me as seeing how long you can go before you crap. Sure you'll save time in the bathroom and save toilet paper but you're carrying around a lot of crap in the mean time. Same with oil. Results from UOA will tell you the oil is OK in some ways but it does not gauge the harm some of the contaminants that have increasing levels will do to some parts of engine. How does it affect rear main seal? Valve stem seals? Rocker arm tips?
Air filters are not catching anything smaller than the fiber to fiber space. That small stuff is often small enough to pass oil filter. It collects solely based on the cubic feet of air consumed and then wiped down cylinder walls into oil by rings. It gets out of engine by draining the oil.
Appreciate the input but your offering opinions with zero facts, Oil analyst offer facts and carries more weight than your post. Clean oil, proper viscosity, low flashpoint. My wife's Toyota goes 12-15K between oil changes on a 4.5 quart engine, this is with Toyota oil changes. The oils and more specifically synthetic oils are not what they used to be, obviously my filter is still doing its job at 25K and 28K miles. Read the analyst, they state they see zero reason this oil can't go another 28K. Would I try it, no but only because I dont want to know how long it might go 1 cycle, I only wanted to know what was a safe number under any condition and I feel like 25K is that number. It cost me $170 to do a oil change with filter myself and $40 for the analyst. I have piece of mind and if the filter wasn't $40 I would stretch that toilet paper to 40K and see what the results were. For years people have sworn by Amsoil and many have said 60K between changes as long as you swap filters at proper service intervals.

Please educate me on how stretching oil changes would cause a oil leak ?
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post #17 of 41 (permalink) Old 09-30-2019, 08:48 AM
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Your thought please ?

Thank you for the clarification. At this point in the discussion my thoughts on this subject will likely add nothing you need or want to hear. I wish you luck though!


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post #18 of 41 (permalink) Old 09-30-2019, 12:16 PM
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Turbo X,

Thanks for the details on VOA and Oil Filter spec.

No doubt AMSOIL has great oil but I am surprised they can offer such extended OCI with a 20-micron filter. I would have thought it only possible with one of their dual oil filter systems:

https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produ...bypass-system/

I will watch this thread with interest.
Thanks


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post #19 of 41 (permalink) Old 09-30-2019, 01:08 PM
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Please educate me on how stretching oil changes would cause a oil leak ? [/QUOTE]


The contaminants in the oil that harden the synthetic rubber materials used to seal crankshaft, crankcase and valve covers.



I have no doubt Amsoil is good oil. Amsoil has no secret mechanism that gets suspended contaminants out of oil when those are not filterable either due to being chemicals that do not evaporate and pass out via ventilation or are so small to pass through filter. If the filter was doing it job then how did silicon build up instead of collecting in the filter?


My evidence is seals and gaskets removed from engines using synthetic oils and doing extended drain are hardened and those removed during the same higher mile service on the same models living in the same area and traveling one way commutes to the same office park. One did 5000 mile oil service and the other 12000 mile. I do not do the oil changes but do the services and repairs. I fare better when the oil drain goes longer and I get to repair leaks so please change it every 50K miles.

I do not think any of the manufacturers has spent the money or has done the testing to assure that the components of their engines affected by increased contaminant capture are up to that task.

I will say that This is gasoline engine apples to apples and there will be differences with diesel as the oil in diesels is not subjected the all the same things, gasoline is worse. I have worked on vehicles for over 40 years and I have always paid attention to why some vehicles that are at the same miles and that I know have similar usage have differences in service history.

It certainly is your vehicle and the problems, if they even happen, will occur later and make it hard to know exactly why they happened. I just know what I have seen for years. I can't resolve that no matter how good the oil and even with bypass filtration there will be some contaminants not removed for a long time and they will get to much higher concentrations if not drained out.

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post #20 of 41 (permalink) Old 09-30-2019, 02:47 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jimmy View Post
Please educate me on how stretching oil changes would cause a oil leak ?




Thanks for the detailed explanation, I ask this with all due respect and not being a smart ass. You see my oil analyst, is that oil heavily contaminated in your opinion ? With the exception of Iron, I dont see a tremendous increase in contaminates between 7500 mile and 25,000 miles. Low flash point indicates absence of fuel in oil, water/antifreeze are zero(Prob cause I do not have short trips) and lubrication or viscosity which Im sure lubricate and keep gaskets in good shape are great. I would like to see a oil report from maybe motorcraft or rotella at 7500 miles, now that would tell a lot. I might contact Blackstone and see if they could share those results on same engine with comparable miles.

John

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post #21 of 41 (permalink) Old 09-30-2019, 10:56 PM
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I do not have a chemical engineering degree and The things tested on the report look good except for silicon. I have a lifetime of anecdotal evidence and worked in this industry for 4 decades. I have had to deal with lots of customers that did not change oil in a timely manner and the manufacturer would not support goodwill help as a result. Same with engine problems and extended warranty. My worries would be what the Blackstone report does not look for. The oil seems to be doing well but what goes on in the oil with suspended contaminants at 245F or higher oil temps? These engines do that towing in 90+ ambient temps. What part of the Blackstone report indicates acidity? I assume the metals would go higher. Iron is higher but what caused that? the silicon or is it something not on the report. I know the iron is your engine wearing but what part?
I can tell you with no question that draining crankcase and replacing oil lowers iron levels and silicon levels and any unmeasured acids or anything else that is going on with the oil that is not checked with UOA.
What is your goal with going so long between crankcase drains?

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post #22 of 41 (permalink) Old 09-30-2019, 11:15 PM Thread Starter
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Appreciate the info, I asked Blackstone for test results of Rotella or Motorcraft and was told they could not share but that they were very similar and comparable to the Amsoil. That there has me questioning if I’m wasting money putting this oil in that cost so much.

To answer your question, what am I looking to accomplish ?

$$$$$$$$$$$$

Operating costs on these diesels is astronomical in comparison as to what I use to spend on my first 7.3 in 1999. I know they do so much more, yada yada yada but besides operational costs they are a ***** when they go bad. I usually trade them out every 2-3 years or 100-150K miles. I plan on keeping this one at least until I see what the new 7.3 gasser does. Unleaded is so much cheaper than diesel, don’t have to jack with DEF or worry about a huge bill when/if injectors, or fuel system problems come up.
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years people have sworn by Amsoil and many have said 60K between changes as long as you swap filters at proper service intervals.
Amzoil has changed their "OCI" quite a few times over the years. Last I looked their oil list that supports extended OCI is QUITE short and often quite expensive. Not to mention in the past their extending OCI practices involved adding fresh oil when you changed the filters on the OEM intervals. For me that gives a false positive on the testing results that the oil is "still good to go". Of course it is, you just added in more additives to sway the test results....that's not the same as a full fresh oil change.

As far as operating costs for maintenance items we are discussing: Okay the standard items are generally oil, oil filter, fuel filters, air filters. They aren't that expensive in the big scheme of things, there's not a shortened change interval since they seem to have extended them across the board.

In the end.....If Amzoil (and their hype) was really that good we all would already be using it. Which we all know......we are not.

If spending that extra money to travel longer driving distances between oil intervals, doing less maintenance cause you are working, and paying for oil analysts to tell you what to do when......$pend that money!!

I like the Amzoil bypass filter setup, I just wish I could use the OEM filter on the primary side. I ran the bypass on my 6.0L and just bought a new filter every year. It wasn't that expensive in the big scheme of things. It added maybe a full QT to the fill process cause of the filter material. I wasn't going to run a tad short on oil if I could prevent it.

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post #24 of 41 (permalink) Old 10-02-2019, 02:12 PM
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Here is something to back up what jimmy is eluding to.

The 20 micron filter will only remove particles greater than 0.0007874 of an inch. Diesel combustion creates particles of 0.000393701 of an inch and smaller. These will pass right through that filter and accumulate over time. Eventually they build up in the oil an saturate it with these tiny particles that the filter just cannot remove, and oil testing doesn't test for. Here is a list of chemicals and such from each combustion stroke, some of which gets past the rings and into the oil.


Carbon (soot)
Carbon monoxide
Carbon dioxide
Oxygen
Water vapour
Nitrogen
Oxides of nitrogen (e.g., nitrogen oxide, nitrogen dioxide)
Oxides of sulphur (e.g., sulphur dioxide)
Alcohols
Aldehydes
Ketones
Hydrocarbons
Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs)
Diesel particulate matter (DPM)

Over time this builds up in the oil and can cause engine damage. Even the best oil in the world can't compensate for the buildups.

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post #25 of 41 (permalink) Old 10-03-2019, 09:42 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by HeavyAssault View Post
For

Amzoil has changed their "OCI" quite a few times over the years. Last I looked their oil list that supports extended OCI is QUITE short and often quite expensive. Not to mention in the past their extending OCI practices involved adding fresh oil when you changed the filters on the OEM intervals. For me that gives a false positive on the testing results that the oil is "still good to go". Of course it is, you just added in more additives to sway the test results....that's not the same as a full fresh oil change.

As far as operating costs for maintenance items we are discussing: Okay the standard items are generally oil, oil filter, fuel filters, air filters. They aren't that expensive in the big scheme of things, there's not a shortened change interval since they seem to have extended them across the board.

In the end.....If Amzoil (and their hype) was really that good we all would already be using it. Which we all know......we are not.

If spending that extra money to travel longer driving distances between oil intervals, doing less maintenance cause you are working, and paying for oil analysts to tell you what to do when......$pend that money!!

I like the Amzoil bypass filter setup, I just wish I could use the OEM filter on the primary side. I ran the bypass on my 6.0L and just bought a new filter every year. It wasn't that expensive in the big scheme of things. It added maybe a full QT to the fill process cause of the filter material. I wasn't going to run a tad short on oil if I could prevent it.

I was saying operating costs have increased drastically compared to back in the days of the 7.3 Power Stroke. Hell Diesel alone cost more than regular unleaded fuel. Operating costs far exceed that of a gasoline engine. I just replaced the high pressure oil system on a F450 6.0 and what I paid for that fix alone, I could have got a new long block on a gas motor. Im very interested to see what's Fords 7.3 gasser is like and not to change the subject too much but the Electric F150.

The frequent testing was only done in beginning to determine how far I could safely extend my oil change intervals, now its only done at time of oil change.


If Im reading your post, you are stating that Amsoil is snake oil. I am beginning to think that and on next oil change, might just go back to Motorcraft oil with the Amsoil filter. I will test every 7500-10,000 miles and compare to Amsoil and determine how far I want to push it. It not that I can't afford the truck or what it cost, I just believe oils, filters and engines have improved drastically and the old guidelines of changing oil every 3000 miles doesn't apply. As stated earlier, if a Camry can go 10,000 miles on 5 quarts and go god knows how many trouble free miles then why can't a truck that isn't under severe duty ?


Thanks for everybody's input
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I do not think Amsoil is snake oil.
I think it has good synthetic base stock and an excellent additive package to counter the negatives listed in an above post. In the world of motor oil, these are the two methods of blending a superior oil.

Amsoils problems are the result of two things:

1) It modeled itself too similar to Amway and created immediate distrust. Heck, they even sound similar—Amsoil & Amway. Most of us here are old enough to remember “Scamway”.

2) It made outrageous promises of 4X-5X the OCI of other oils and this is an absurd claim. They should have been more conservative and stuck with a claim of 2X the competition.

If I wanted to run extended OCIs of any sort, I would choose Amsoil in front of either Motorcraft or Rotella.
But I make no secret that my first choice would be Mobil Delvac-1.
I even put a little of that in my morning coffee when I run out of creamer. Its thats good. 😉


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post #27 of 41 (permalink) Old 10-04-2019, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ACD2 View Post
Here is a list of chemicals and such from each combustion stroke, some of which gets past the rings and into the oil.


Carbon (soot)
Carbon monoxide
Carbon dioxide
Oxygen
Water vapour
Nitrogen
Oxides of nitrogen (e.g., nitrogen oxide, nitrogen dioxide)
Oxides of sulphur (e.g., sulphur dioxide)
Alcohols
Aldehydes
Ketones
Hydrocarbons
Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs)
Diesel particulate matter (DPM)
The Blackstone Report in the first post should have TBN/TAN values. Any decision to run extended OCI should include TBN/TAN.

https://www.spectrosci.com/resource-...suring-tantbn/

The decision should also include the use of a Bypass Filter System as I mentioned in an earlier post since the secondary filter is small enough to remove Soot.

EDIT:
Extended being any mileage beyond Ford’s recommendation.


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post #28 of 41 (permalink) Old 10-04-2019, 10:48 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ArcticDriver View Post
I do not think Amsoil is snake oil.
I think it has good synthetic base stock and an excellent additive package to counter the negatives listed in an above post. In the world of motor oil, these are the two methods of blending a superior oil.

Amsoils problems are the result of two things:

1) It modeled itself too similar to Amway and created immediate distrust. Heck, they even sound similar—Amsoil & Amway. Most of us here are old enough to remember “Scamway”.

2) It made outrageous promises of 4X-5X the OCI of other oils and this is an absurd claim. They should have been more conservative and stuck with a claim of 2X the competition.

If I wanted to run extended OCIs of any sort, I would choose Amsoil in front of either Motorcraft or Rotella.
But I make no secret that my first choice would be Mobil Delvac-1.
I even put a little of that in my morning coffee when I run out of creamer. Its thats good. 😉
I guess Snakeoil was a strong word but now you bring up Amway and your post is exactly what I was thinking and trying to say.

You provide a lot of helpful information, thanks again
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There will be many that will suffer using 10K oil changes in a Camry. The easy driving parent that works from home and does child-school shuttling and likely warms up engine via remote start winter for heat and summer for a cool car.
Car manufacturers' engineers push for reduced interval for anyone but a no traffic 40 mile each way commuter. Marketing wants to have low maintenance so they win. When I worked for a car manufacturer for 21 years the oil service interval getting lengthened was a battle but money wins every time unless warranty costs will go up and that can be shown with HIGH certainty.When the factory scheduled maintenance is added in the mfr saves millions with extended intervals and cutting one or two oil services out. If they have a 2yr/24k mile cover and the interval is 7.5K they pay for 3, change it to 10K and that is now 2. If you figure a $125 cost for an oil change at a dealer and they sell 250K camries then they save $31,250,000 on eliminating one oil service.
Drop it to $100 and it is 25 million. If I were paying I'd make the first change at 15K with 10K thereafter and miss paying for the second one and get that other 25 mill.

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Amzoil costs $$$, add to that the requirements of testing $$$.....Please show me the math where you save $$$$$$$$ when going to longer OCI. Please include all costs.

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