I know the C is built stronger but factory equipped does the C have the capacity to fuel as much as the B? Can the C be turned up as much or more than the B? What is the pyro limit on these motors? What is the max boost on the C? Thanks ahead of time.
I think the B is all mech and the C was part mech & elect.im no cat man but a friend of mine has a kw with 3406c and the throtle pedle is elec and the pump is mech.
The C model CAT has bigger mains and con rod bearings.. You can turn it up but the power you get from the added fuel will depend on where you start. If you are at 425 now you can get up to 500 at the crank.. If you are at a lower rating you may need a different turbo or heads/injectors to achieve more power with-out to much heat..
As far as temps go I think a sustained temp 0f 1150 is O.K. by that time your fan will run a lot and rob what you gained anyway...
If I remember right, a "C" was a PEEC, Cat's first attempt at electronic controls - they were kind-of a failure. There were a slug of 'em that got converted back to a "B" fuel system (I had one like that, it was the cheapest & most reliable option at the time), I would almost be that's what you've got.
I have been told that the C has a smaller cam in the injector pump and that it could not fuel like the B but is heavier built. Doesnt make a lot of sense if that is true /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
well all i can tell you is I was at a shop yesterday and the guy was putting a injector in a 94 kw and he said it was a c model 3406.and the cam was def in the head.it is a cat shop so one would think the lod guy new what he was talking about.but hay mabe not.or someone put a e model in it and he was confused
I don't know what you saw. I know that I literally look at dozens of 3406E and C15 (same head) cylinder heads daily and there is a cam bore on the top side of the head. A blind man could tell the difference between an E and an earlier model. The As have a larger injector port. Bs and Cs look pretty much the same. I think I'm going to go look at a few engines tomorrow and see if I can see what you are talking about.
Im pretty sure that the mechanical engines actually disappeared in late 1996. And the E model made its show in 94 with a very few 93's on the road as early (beta) engines
FYI...3406C was available both ways...mechanical fuel system and electronic (PEEC). C model plunger and barrels are different than B, this change basically eliminates the ability to turn the fuel up. You could remove the fuel setting screws on a C and change the power very little, on a B a little change makes a huge difference...1 turn = 100HP in my experience...
You're not getting the answer to that power question.
The C model as mentioned had some better features than the B model. Also, the head bolts were a bit stronger, 12 point rather than a traditional 6 point hex fastener (they certainly needed head gasket help after the fun and games of dropping asbestos in the filler material). C's were not neccessarily electronic, but if they were, they'd be called 3406C, PEEC I or PEEC III. I believe Ford tied up all the PEEC II engines. That wasn't too successful. As far a power settings between the two, we compared several in various different rigs when they first came out and based on posted MM of pump rack settings and actual power to the ground it seemed they may not have been quite as strong, apples for apples (C to the B). I sort of figured they might have messed around with the cam profile for emissions. As far as the fuel pump goes, I believe there was no difference in its cam size, and the Cat inline pump couldn't really be hurt anyways. I wasn't aware of a difference in plunger and barrel diameter, but that would have been a good way for Cat to limit fuel available. Most of our work was on the B models.
The one nice thing on both fuel systems was how easy it is to turn your fuel/ power up. With a well running engine, just back out the fuel and torque screw equal amounts, or if you drive reasonably, relocate them to the glove box.
You're not getting the answer to that power question.
The C model as mentioned had some better features than the B model. Also, the head bolts were a bit stronger, 12 point rather than a traditional 6 point hex fastener (they certainly needed head gasket help after the fun and games of dropping asbestos in the filler material). C's were not neccessarily electronic, but if they were, they'd be called 3406C, PEEC I or PEEC III. I believe Ford tied up all the PEEC II engines. That wasn't too successful. As far a power settings between the two, we compared several in various different rigs when they first came out and based on posted MM of pump rack settings and actual power to the ground it seemed they may not have been quite as strong, apples for apples (C to the B). I sort of figured they might have messed around with the cam profile for emissions. As far as the fuel pump goes, I believe there was no difference in its cam size, and the Cat inline pump couldn't really be hurt anyways. I wasn't aware of a difference in plunger and barrel diameter, but that would have been a good way for Cat to limit fuel available. Most of our work was on the B models.
The one nice thing on both fuel systems was how easy it is to turn your fuel/ power up. With a well running engine, just back out the fuel and torque screw equal amounts, or if you drive reasonably, relocate them to the glove box.
Lorne, You obviously have the hands-on experience and knowledge Im looking for. I put a pyro in the truck this past weekend and carried 2 loads of 80k lbs. Even on long reasonably steep grades the temp never got past 750F. This is after 9 rounds on both screws and .5" worth of timing added. You say to back the fuel and torque screws all the way out?! Any idea of what torque level that will be? Horsepower? The power falls on its face after 1700. The guy whose truck I would like to match, is getting me a part number for an stiffer govenor spring. The truck, when received, was obviously turned down. Assuming the screws were nearly as tight as possible, how many turns approximately will it take to get them out? Can they be reinstalled without much difficulty? I really want to beat my friends truck on these hills. His head is just a little too big. He can literally run off and leave his fathers 500hp detroit on any hill. THis is with 3.70 gears. Mine has 4.11 (slight advantage to work with). Thanks a million.
[ QUOTE ]
FYI...3406C was available both ways...mechanical fuel system and electronic (PEEC). C model plunger and barrels are different than B, this change basically eliminates the ability to turn the fuel up. You could remove the fuel setting screws on a C and change the power very little, on a B a little change makes a huge difference...1 turn = 100HP in my experience...
[/ QUOTE ] I have been able to get more fuel at lower rpms it just wont pull past 1700. I didnt see your post on my previous visit when I replied to Lorne. Your experience is equally appreciated. Is there any way to overcome the fuel limitations you speak of?
I have 2 identical petes one has a 1994 3406B and the other is a 1996 C. These 2 trucks are geared the same etc. Niether has been cranked up. The C engine will pull hills a lot better than the B model. You stated your engine quites pulling at 1700rpm. I know this sounds stupid but the same happened to me on my C model. The throttle linkage was not allowing the fuel rack to travel to the full open position. A quick adjustment and the motor now pulls to 2100 easy.It was like adding 100 hp. Be careful turning the fuel up on these engines as your reliablity will suffer. My buddy had a 3406B that would shame 550's but it's junk now. I have a yard full of 3406 cats with rods sticking thru the blocks. My 96 B 425 will run right with my 97 E 550 model. Best way to tell whats goin on is pay $450 and have it put on a chassis dyno. This will give you true hp and torque at the rear wheels. I have a 2000 C-12 rated at 435hp and it ran like crap. I had it to cat several times and was told it was OK. Put it on the Dyno and it was only showing 370hp at the wheels. It blew up 2 weeks later. I have seen 3406 B's show 500hp at the wheels not cranked and cranked up engines only 400hp. There is more to it than adding fuel.
"turning the fuel up" is a recipe for disaster only if its not done at the pump oonly and no other changes are made.if the pump only is increased then all you are doing is dumping lots of fuel into the cylinders without the supporting cast of timing,turbo,and injector mods.go to dieselinjection.com and read the HP and TQ pages to find out how to safely increase power without ruining an engine.
I see you guys dusted the cobwebs off of this thread, but I can't resist posting anyway;
The 3406C may look alot like the B model, but the path to bigger horsepower is different. If you go to a shop that suggests removing the rack screws and cranking up the timing first, I'd be looking for a different shop as they obviously don't know 3406C mechanicals. You don't need someone experimenting with your engine as the cost of engine failure will be yours if something goes wrong.
Post your serial number please and the mileage on this engine. 3ZJ,8PN prefix or other?
HP upgrades are dependant on your specific engine. There are many changes in 3406C mechanical parts over the 5 or 6 years they were built.
Is your engine properly tuned to start with? You likely have restricted fuel nozzles, worn or misadjusted timing advance, leaking bonnet to barrels, leaking AFRC or intake system.
High serial number 3ZJ engines have different check valves that restrict fuel flow so much that rack setting increase has little effect.
There were alot of nozzle problems early on which could accelerate internal pump leakage. The low serial number engines were the worst for bonnet/barrel leakage. There were many combinations of bonnet/bushings which have eventually changed up to the best design. Usually the old design parts would take out the barrel necessitating a P&B replacement also. In the hey day of the 3406C'S we did a barrel/bonnet lap approximately every 2 years on the high hp units.
There were factory authorized changes to the AFRC also to get more response on certain units.
I would leave the timing at spec, we often extended the range of advance. 3406C's tended to run worse with more static advance and you increase your risk of meltdown. If your not setting your advance with the electronic timing kit your just guessing and probably going to make things worse. I'd be setting your pin timing back to dead on or no more than half a hole advanced at the flywheel hole till you can get the advance properly set.
3406C is a much better engine to high horse than a 3406B. A freshly tuned 3406C would outpull a 500 E CAT, but usually not a 550.
im looking at a truck with a 3406b peec(thats what they called it )in a 1990 frtlnr that i can get cheap.it is 310hp and want to know how easy/expensive it would be to turn it up to 425+ hp safely.thx
Hey guys I'm new to this so forgive my ignorance. I am looking at purchasing a 82 359 Pete with a 3406 "a" cat in it. Rebuilt 50,000 ago it is rated at 400 horsepower, I am wanting to know how to turn up the horsepower and how high I can go with stock pump? I'm wanting to get somewhere near 500
yes you can turn up a 3406C more than a B Model the C barrel an plunger are different ! on the plunger of the C Model has 2slots in it for fuel to be injected the B model has 1 slot !But the C model barrel and plungers are a little bit shorter than the B model ! and I would not run the exh temperature over 900 for a short time ONLY!!!!!! Maybe that will answer your ? Good luck Rocky
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