Navistar / IH Water Pump Upgrade - Page 4 - Diesel Forum - TheDieselStop.com
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post #46 of 79 (permalink) Old 02-08-2014, 07:21 PM
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post #47 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-27-2014, 09:50 PM
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As of now, the only reasons I'm hearing are that people hope or assume it will be more reliable. That's ok, because none of us can predict failure... but what is it about the IH pump that gives people more hope than the Ford pump? Substituting an unproven solution because a previous solution failed seems similar to putting in an Auto Zone pump because the CarQuest pump failed.
I read somewhere that the bearings seemed to be better in the IH pump but I have no facts to back that up. I do like the idea of having the filter directly on the housing but I don't like to options for the lower hose.
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post #48 of 79 (permalink) Old 03-28-2014, 12:24 AM
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Bearings and seals. Now we are talking about water pumps. Because that is what fails in a water pump.

I never understood the obsession with IH water pump because it is "cast iron". Some people seem to associate "cast iron" with "heavier duty." But when was the last time you heard of a water pump housing break?

How and where do water pumps fail? Do the housings split into two? Crack in half? Crumble apart? Disintegrate into metal pieces? No. We never hear of water pump housing failures. We hear of water pump BEARING failures.

So what difference does it make if the housing is made of cast iron or aluminum if neither type of housing represents the problem with water pumps? The difference is that the cast iron housing adds 18 lbs of unnecessary weight to the motor. The cast iron water pump weighs three times more, at 26 lbs, than the Ford aluminum design, at 8 lbs.

The IH T444e was typically spec'd to 190 HP. Many were only 175 HP. Some were 210 HP. A few "high output" versions were 230 HP, and that was maxed out top of the heap.

The 99-03 Ford Powerstroke was spec'd to 235 HP. So in this case the Ford version begins higher than the IH version left off. Then Ford bumped the Automatic version to 250 HP, and the manual trans version to 275 HP.

Before getting into the HP vs Torque argument, consider this... spin speed. That's what wears out bearings. Spinning. And we've already established that bearings are what fails in water pumps, not housings. Leaving peak torque rpm aside then, since peak torque always occurs at a much lower rpm, let's look at the spin speed at peak HP.

The IH T444E makes it's maximum HP at 2,300 RPM. The Ford makes it's maximum HP at 2,750 RPM. The Ford motor is spinning 500 rpm faster at peak horsepower.

The engine speed on the IH redlines at 2,600 RPM. The Ford redlines at 3,300 RPM.

The medium duty trucks and school busses are speed limited to 65 mph. The Ford pickups are speed limited to 94 mph.

Which water pump bearing can be expected to spin faster at peak power?

Last edited by NYB; 03-28-2014 at 12:28 AM.
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post #49 of 79 (permalink) Old 05-01-2014, 10:05 PM
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My pump is still functioning flawlessly. I know it is a short time since install but I need to post up good reports periodically rather than a failure many years in the future. I have not replaced the filter but when I do I will save it and perhaps take the sawsall to cut it in half for inspection and pics for posting. My truck has not previously had a filter so we will see how much sand is there.

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post #50 of 79 (permalink) Old 05-19-2014, 04:23 PM
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Just a heads up...did my second install of these pumps for a customer, ordered the most recent one from rockauto under gates P/N for like $140ish, and its a NEW pump. WP gasket was busted coming outta the box looks like the pump cut it in half in a spot, but RA sent a felpro gasket out the next day.

Anyhow, the main thing I felt I should comment on, the NAPA 8763 hose does not fit, per my having both the FM-124 and the 8763 on hand. Dunno if it works on OBS trucks but it will not do on a 99+ Superduty.

Had I seen it I prolly would have ordered the kit from Dieselsite for the customer since the proper molded hose is nice and he wouldn't mind paying more for the whole thing coming from one place ect. For the future now I know...

I hate that I can't put one of these on my truck due to having Dual Alternators, would gladly give up an alt so that I can have a cast iron pump and coolant filter as one assembly.
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post #51 of 79 (permalink) Old 05-19-2014, 09:03 PM
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So if one does this mod and blows a hose while out of town where does this hose come from Dieselsite?
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post #52 of 79 (permalink) Old 05-19-2014, 11:04 PM
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im sure you can just buy a length of straight radiator hose and it will work.

not to mention the pump from dieselsite is 400 bones

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post #53 of 79 (permalink) Old 05-23-2014, 11:32 AM
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So if one does this mod and blows a hose while out of town where does this hose come from Dieselsite?
Thank you!

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im sure you can just buy a length of straight radiator hose and it will work.
If straight hoses worked so well, then why do auto parts stores devote 60-100 linear feet of very valuable retail, backroom, and warehouse shelf and wall space, at sky high leasing rates, just to stock pre molded hoses?

If straight hoses worked so well, then why do automakers continue to endure the costly burden of designing, manufacturing, and then managing thousands of different production molded hoses, when they could eliminate all that inventory down to just one part, cut to length?


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not to mention the pump from dieselsite is 400 bones
That's another thing I can't figure out. If the water pump that Dieselsite is selling is a genuine water pump from International, why not just go to an International dealer and get it directly from them?

I understand about site sponsorship and the value add of having all the hoses, fittings, and instructions come in one box, but like Nick said... at some point on the side of the road, there won't be a middle man to hold one's hand.

Last edited by NYB; 05-23-2014 at 12:10 PM.
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post #54 of 79 (permalink) Old 05-23-2014, 05:43 PM
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You make a good point NYB, for ease of fitment and the availability of parts when broke down in the middle of no where I'm thinking I'll go with the genuine pump. Just seems like a lot of unnecessary work for not much gain.


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post #55 of 79 (permalink) Old 07-31-2014, 10:48 PM Thread Starter
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You make a good point NYB, for ease of fitment and the availability of parts when broke down in the middle of no where I'm thinking I'll go with the genuine pump. Just seems like a lot of unnecessary work for not much gain.
If your truck's put together right, and maintained, from the get-go, it won't breakdown "in the middle of no where"...

Al in SoCal

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AFE Stage II w/PG-7
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post #56 of 79 (permalink) Old 07-31-2014, 11:05 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYB View Post
Bearings and seals. Now we are talking about water pumps. Because that is what fails in a water pump.

I never understood the obsession with IH water pump because it is "cast iron". Some people seem to associate "cast iron" with "heavier duty." But when was the last time you heard of a water pump housing break?

How and where do water pumps fail? Do the housings split into two? Crack in half? Crumble apart? Disintegrate into metal pieces? No. We never hear of water pump housing failures. We hear of water pump BEARING failures.

So what difference does it make if the housing is made of cast iron or aluminum if neither type of housing represents the problem with water pumps? The difference is that the cast iron housing adds 18 lbs of unnecessary weight to the motor. The cast iron water pump weighs three times more, at 26 lbs, than the Ford aluminum design, at 8 lbs.

The IH T444e was typically spec'd to 190 HP. Many were only 175 HP. Some were 210 HP. A few "high output" versions were 230 HP, and that was maxed out top of the heap.

The 99-03 Ford Powerstroke was spec'd to 235 HP. So in this case the Ford version begins higher than the IH version left off. Then Ford bumped the Automatic version to 250 HP, and the manual trans version to 275 HP.

Before getting into the HP vs Torque argument, consider this... spin speed. That's what wears out bearings. Spinning. And we've already established that bearings are what fails in water pumps, not housings. Leaving peak torque rpm aside then, since peak torque always occurs at a much lower rpm, let's look at the spin speed at peak HP.

The IH T444E makes it's maximum HP at 2,300 RPM. The Ford makes it's maximum HP at 2,750 RPM. The Ford motor is spinning 500 rpm faster at peak horsepower.

The engine speed on the IH redlines at 2,600 RPM. The Ford redlines at 3,300 RPM.

The medium duty trucks and school busses are speed limited to 65 mph. The Ford pickups are speed limited to 94 mph.

Which water pump bearing can be expected to spin faster at peak power?
Well, I guess the bottom line is: If YOU can't see any gain to putting a Navistar pump on your truck, THEN DON'T DO IT!

With regard to your horsepower comments: as it relates to the cooling system, it's the radiator that would have some (or more) bearing or effect on a horsepower rating, not the water pump. The pump just moves the coolant...It's the radiator that's doing the [cooling] work.

"Spin speed": The pump's RPM is more of a function of the pulley sizes rather than the actual engine speed, for a given engine/setup. In my case, neither the crank nor pump pulleys were changed from the original Ford configuration, therefore the water-moving aspect (i.e. pump RPM) is the same as the original pump. Still staying cool, though.

"Bearings" are NOT what usually fails in a water pump. It's the shaft seal that USUALLY fails first, causing a leak. Bearings do fail, and a failed bearing can cause the shaft to wear the seal, which then (again) leaks. But most failures are an "...Oh S--t, my water pump's leaking!"

And you're right, the aluminum vs. cast-iron thing is really irrelevant. But I'll be damned if I can find an aluminum pump with the coolant filter built in!

As far as bearings go: well, only time will tell. I just know from experience (wrenching on these engines) that very few Ford pumps go more than 125-175K mi. Yet the Navistar pumps will go 250K +, so something's different, and it's not just engine/pump RPM's!

Thanks for your comments though...

Al in SoCal

2000 F350 SRW CC 4X4
AFE Stage II w/PG-7
Garrett 38R Turbo
Swamps Stage II Single-shots
Stealth Dual-HPOP
ITP Custom-modified Regulated-return Fuel System
DP-Tuner PCM & F-5 chip (Live tuned!)
Autometer Gauges (Pyro, Boost, Eng oil temp)
Non-EBPV Pedestal
AIH Delete
"T444e" Open CCV
4" Custom S/S Exhaust into 5" Dual Aussie Stacks
ZF 6-Spd "Hand-shaker"
Southbend Double-Disc clutch
...plus some other goodies...
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Last edited by calico5string; 07-31-2014 at 11:22 PM.
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post #57 of 79 (permalink) Old 07-31-2014, 11:13 PM Thread Starter
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bumping this thread - any other updates on this IH pump? Is this the way to go - or stay oem with external filtration...
I'm the OP of this thread:

The pump is still in and still working perfectly...no issues.

Al in SoCal

2000 F350 SRW CC 4X4
AFE Stage II w/PG-7
Garrett 38R Turbo
Swamps Stage II Single-shots
Stealth Dual-HPOP
ITP Custom-modified Regulated-return Fuel System
DP-Tuner PCM & F-5 chip (Live tuned!)
Autometer Gauges (Pyro, Boost, Eng oil temp)
Non-EBPV Pedestal
AIH Delete
"T444e" Open CCV
4" Custom S/S Exhaust into 5" Dual Aussie Stacks
ZF 6-Spd "Hand-shaker"
Southbend Double-Disc clutch
...plus some other goodies...
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Last edited by calico5string; 07-31-2014 at 11:17 PM.
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post #58 of 79 (permalink) Old 07-31-2014, 11:27 PM Thread Starter
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BTW, the "Navistar" pump setup being sold as a "kit" on a certain vendor website is NOT a "factory" IH (Navistar) pump.

After a close examination of the pictures on the vendor site, the pump they are selling is almost guaranteed to be a cheap Chinese knock-off.

There are certain characteristic marks that are on a "real" Navistar pump, and theirs does NOT have them.

I would not expect a Chinese POS to have the quality of the real thing...nor the life expectancy.

Al in SoCal

2000 F350 SRW CC 4X4
AFE Stage II w/PG-7
Garrett 38R Turbo
Swamps Stage II Single-shots
Stealth Dual-HPOP
ITP Custom-modified Regulated-return Fuel System
DP-Tuner PCM & F-5 chip (Live tuned!)
Autometer Gauges (Pyro, Boost, Eng oil temp)
Non-EBPV Pedestal
AIH Delete
"T444e" Open CCV
4" Custom S/S Exhaust into 5" Dual Aussie Stacks
ZF 6-Spd "Hand-shaker"
Southbend Double-Disc clutch
...plus some other goodies...
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post #59 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-01-2014, 04:11 PM
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Not that it really matters but the IH pumps from Gates and from a school bus waterpump site on the net that I cant recall the name of are both made new in the USA. I have put these pumps on a few trucks, first one was from the school bus company, and came from CA from a company in CA making them here in the US. Dunno where Gates makes thier IH pumps but the box said Made in USA on it, and was identical to the one I had gotten a year earlier. Had I not ground off the casting numbers I would have been able to check to see if they were from the same mold.

The gates one was cheaper and arrived in a day from rockauto, sadly I cant put one on my own truck thanks to the dual alternators. I love having two alts but would give it up the 2nd one in favor of having a cast iron IH pump, but its more work than is worth I think.
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post #60 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-01-2014, 06:07 PM
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