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  Topic Review (Newest First)
08-22-2007 01:30 AM
Jinco
Re: Oil change int.

My oil, with bypass filtration, is cleaner throughout my 5k oci than it would be without bypass filtration. I can see no downside to that. It is my understanding that cleaner oil = less wear. I will go for less wear over perfectly interpreted uoa's. That said, I still firmly believe that if there was a problem with my truck the wear numbers would show right up. I would expect that running a bypass just causes a lower wear number baseline over a non-bypass setup with the same mileage. I do understand that in the end there may or may not be an appreciable difference in wear while using a bypass for 5k versus not using a bypass for 3 or 5k. For the minimal expense and effort I don't mind though because it gives me some piece of mind.
08-21-2007 12:38 PM
Gooch
Re: Oil change int.

Here's a comment by a Certified Lubrication Specialist - member of the Society of Tribologists and Lubrication Engineers:

"I recommend using a good bypass filter. However, by using a bypass filter you can be fooled into thinking that your engine is being subjected to less wear. Every oil has a specific wear rate built into it some are lower than others. You will not get any lower wear rate than when the oil is first out of the bottle....

Let's say you use an average oil and don't use a bypass filter. When you do an oil analysis you might see something like 40ppm of iron in 4,000 miles. Then you install a bypass filter and send an oil analysis in with 4,000 miles on it. You then see a reduction of wear metals that is now giving you a 25ppm of iron reading. You would think that engine wear has been reduced due to your installing the bypass filter. This might not be true. You may have the same wear rate, but now the 15 ppm of iron is being collected by the bypass filter instead of being dropped into the oil. Thus the bypass filter is masking the real wear that is still happening....."


This holds true to what I was saying. Looking for small spikes or trends can help. But if something happens to your engine that suddenly causes wear and that wear gets caught in your bypass, you won't necessarily be alerted to the seriousness of the problem. The object is to avoid your engine's wear rates in the first place. And the best way to do that is with a fresh, new oil that meets your API spec.
08-21-2007 12:10 PM
TCH777
Re: Oil change int.

FWIW I emailed Blackstone on Bypass filters and UEO analysis this is their response:

[ QUOTE ]
Tim: Thanks for the e-mail. I have heard this argument about by-pass filtration as well. It's improtant to note that the elements we test for are extremely small, usually between 1 to 10 micron in size and this is not something that gets caught in the oil filter, so the wear levels we read are going to be pretty accurate. Besides, a filters job is to collect the contaminates and clean the oil, so if that's what it's doing, then it's not actually a problem because clean oil is going back into the engine. Let me know if you have any more questions. Sincerely,Ryan Stark Blackstone Labs

[/ QUOTE ]

I think very few of the Bypass filters are working 100% in the the 1 to 10 micron range, even if they claim to be.

Tim
08-21-2007 12:09 AM
poppie
Re: Oil change int.

sorry,i never went to the end before posting and this was already stated,fwiw,blackstone say's i can go to 7500 with mobil delvac 15/40 but i still change it at 5000 and my oil stay's cleaner longer just looking at the dipstick than it ever did in my 1990 7.3 idi,it looked black in 500-600 miles after a change,my 2002 is just a light tan [email protected] 1500 mile's after a change again fwiw.
08-20-2007 11:32 PM
poppie
Re: Oil change int.

What's the lab thinking,if i read his report right, they sell the stuff,time for a blackstone report and see if blackstone recomend's running it.
08-20-2007 10:47 AM
shaark92
Re: Oil change int.

[ QUOTE ]
No doubt that the bypass filtration does its job to remove wear particles above and beyond stock filtration, I agree with the theory and the benifits. But, by taking them out of the oil, they are not measured by the oil analysis. If you then use the oil analysis to judge the change interval of the oil, isn't the bypass filter acting like a blindfold to what's really in the oil?

[/ QUOTE ]

interesting theory, shamu. But ... to get "accurate trash-rate" numbers, wouldn't you, then, need to run an interval with ZERO filtration???

Maybe the BP filtration is clouding the rate of wear particles being generated ... but it's also doing a better job of keeping those particles from inducing the wear.

Wx EOI is the goal or "cleaner" oil, BP is the way to go ... just gotta be smart about it. I'm running the Amsoil 15-40 HD ... but you won't see me going beyond 15K, (i'm on my first change w/ the BMK-16) regardless of the UOA.

Al
08-20-2007 12:43 AM
arisley
Re: Oil change int.

[ QUOTE ]
I may be mistaken but I believe most oils contain additives that are depleted after a certain amount of use that can only be replenished with a change of the oil.

The flaming against sootie isn't doing any good so why bother with that approach. My approach would be to appeal to his common sense and ask why would you honestly think that any oil SHOULD be asked to protect and do its job for 50K+ miles on an engine.....or put a better way, in your engine? Why would you take that chance? If 50K+ mile oil changes are so possible with no negative effects, why is it that its not the norm instead of the exception? The PPM figures that have been provided are extreme and THAT IS WITH SPECIAL FILTRATION THAT DOES IN FACT FILTER TO SMALLER LEVELS? But the levels are still way high.

I can certainly see using bypass filtration as being beneficial and have seriously considered it myself. But that would be in addition to extended drain intervals on the order of 10K miles max. I use the 5w-40 syn that some feel is a waste. But I've gone 8-9K miles with suggestions from oil analysis that I could go 'slightly' longer but choose not to push it. This allows me to go twice as long on changes as usual with less to recycle.

Come on sootie.......this is against all common logic. Do your engine a favor and clean it out with a change. Drive it 10K miles and do another test. You'll see way better oil analysis results and will know its running its best with your high end oil (and quite possibly superior oil to other syn) and bypass filtration. Thats the ticket to motor longevity and bliss. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

You asked, just wait. We have been there and done that, and all of us are still waiting on the window stickers. Trust me, Sootie will tell you why not. I even see some valid points to Sooties arguements, but not to any where neare his extremes.
08-20-2007 12:38 AM
teesh
Re: Oil change int.

I may be mistaken but I believe most oils contain additives that are depleted after a certain amount of use that can only be replenished with a change of the oil.

The flaming against sootie isn't doing any good so why bother with that approach. My approach would be to appeal to his common sense and ask why would you honestly think that any oil SHOULD be asked to protect and do its job for 50K+ miles on an engine.....or put a better way, in your engine? Why would you take that chance? If 50K+ mile oil changes are so possible with no negative effects, why is it that its not the norm instead of the exception? The PPM figures that have been provided are extreme and THAT IS WITH SPECIAL FILTRATION THAT DOES IN FACT FILTER TO SMALLER LEVELS? But the levels are still way high.

I can certainly see using bypass filtration as being beneficial and have seriously considered it myself. But that would be in addition to extended drain intervals on the order of 10K miles max. I use the 5w-40 syn that some feel is a waste. But I've gone 8-9K miles with suggestions from oil analysis that I could go 'slightly' longer but choose not to push it. This allows me to go twice as long on changes as usual with less to recycle.

Come on sootie.......this is against all common logic. Do your engine a favor and clean it out with a change. Drive it 10K miles and do another test. You'll see way better oil analysis results and will know its running its best with your high end oil (and quite possibly superior oil to other syn) and bypass filtration. Thats the ticket to motor longevity and bliss. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif[/img]
08-19-2007 03:58 PM
Gooch
Re: Oil change int.

[ QUOTE ]
By sootieoil:

your engine is in great shape. yes I'm sure, the last
UOA was ten years ago.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please excuse me, but my PSD isn't even 10 years old, and my last UOA was performed at my last change interval. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]


[ QUOTE ]
By sootieoil:

yes your engine is doing fine with large particles of varnish,
sludge and wear from your engine floating around, oh but you change it alot.that is supposed to mean something, NOT! it does mean you spend lots of money on oil that just meets the minimum requiered API spec on the bottle

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, please excuse me, but my engine does not have large particles of varnish, sludge, and wear floating around in the oil. I just changed it.

And finally, please understand that my oil exceeds the API spec...a spec designed to give my engine everything it needs and more. And hopefully you understand that the price of an oil has very little to do with how it performs, and everything to do with marketing.

Sootieoil, other than posting a bunch of misinformation to convince us that we should be using Amsoil, bypass filtration, and 50,000+ mile change intervals, I'm failing to see your point here. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
08-18-2007 09:26 AM
butch cassidy
Re: Oil change int.

On edit,

I read the above link, the line quoted above, says it all.

Butch Cassidy
08-18-2007 09:21 AM
butch cassidy
Re: Oil change int.


if you really want to learn the importance of oil filtration, please spend the time to read the article below,about particle count analysis it will help you understand how filtration is as important as oil quality
http://www.practicingoilanalysis.com/art...oup=OilAnalysis


[/ QUOTE ]

All oil analysis technologies have unique imperfections. These include problems associated with calibration, precision, repeatability, interferences, fluid compatibility, false negatives and others.

Butch Cassidy
08-17-2007 07:28 PM
sootieoil
Re: Oil change int.

[ QUOTE ]
Excellent questions Snowman269. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Imagine contamination being expressed as the area under a curve. The X-axis would be mileage/time. The Y-axis being contamination level. In general terms, you could relate the most area to the most contamination to the most wear.

An oil that is changed frequently will look much like a wave plotted on the X-Y axis, steadily increasing and then dropping off to zero again. At mileage 0 it would start at contamination level 0. Contamination would slowly increase until maximized at some level at change interval time, lets say 5K miles. Then it would drop back down to zero again when changed with new oil. After 100K miles you would have 20 waves.

Extended drain oil will steadily increase and not drop back off to zero (until it is changed), looking much like a big parabolic open-ended curve.

Overlaying the curves, or using calculus, would determine which curve had more area, and thus more wear. Apples to apples, you will find that the oil that is changed more frequently has less area under the curve, and thus less wear. This can be more realized by imagining the extremes...for example oil that was changed daily vs. oil that was never changed.

Now, oranges to apples...add bypass filtration...

First, to justify the fact that bypass filtration will reduce contamination levels during the extended drain, reducing the area under its curve, and thus wear, you have to believe that the contamination generated in the 5K mile interval, with the 20 micron OEM filter, produces more wear. In other words, at what micron level of contamination and at what saturation level does a difference in wear really show up? Below 20 micron, does size really matter? (We won't get into filter efficiency for the sake of cluttering this up more than it already is). The manufacturer determined that the 20 micron OEM filtration is sufficient for the tolerences they designed in this engine. Millions of engines and millions of miles tend to back that up. So does filtration below that actually increase engine life?

Apples to apples, there is no doubt that bypass filtration can reduce the larger contaminates. But it has not been proven, in this engine of average tolerences, that those contaminates 20 micron and smaller actually produce more wear.

There is a huge table of oil sample comparisons floating around this site somewhere. Maybe someone can find it. Regardless of filtration, those UOA's show that contamination with extended drains is still higher than those using the manufacturer's recommended interval.

But there is so much more to an oil's performance than wear contamination. Viscosity, shear, anti-foaming ability, TBN, etc. are all more reasons to change it. Even with excellent filtration, the oil, synthetic or not, breaks down. And although those levels may be "acceptable", they are more than we "enthusiasts" want.

Yes, I think any decent oil, including Mobil, can protect the engine for 15K miles. The question is at what level? I think if you are working your engine at all, and want to go 10-15K miles between changes, you should have a bypass filter to help. But the best would be to simply change and refresh the oil. The absolute best would probably be to change the oil frequently and use a bypass filter. Then you have to figure in expense and what you really want to do.

In my case, I have no reason for a bypass or extended drains. My UOA's are excellent, my filter does its job, my engine has a drain plug, and I can do a change for less than $35 in under 15 minutes. My engine is in great shape. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
your engine is in great shape. yes I'm sure, the last
UOA was ten years ago.

[ QUOTE ]
Some Contaminants Cause More Damage
The level of damage particles cause to an engine
is directly related to the size of the particles. The
oil stream within the engine flows between wearsensitive
surfaces that usually have clearances
between 2 and 22 microns. It is contaminants in
this size range that pose the greatest threat as they
can slip between moving components, causing a
great deal of wear.
To appreciate how small these particles are, one
must first understand the measurements involved
in their classification.
A micron, or micrometer (&#956, is a very small unit
of linear measurement. One micron is equal to
one millionth of a meter, and 25 microns is equal
to 0.001 inch. To better put this in perspective,
consider that the diameter of a human hair is 50 -
70 microns.
Large particles are particles measuring 1/2” or
larger. They pose little threat to engines because
they are easily removed by the air filter.
Medium particles are particles measuring 25μ to
1/2”. While they are of greater concern than large
particles because they are more difficult to remove,
the threat they pose is diminished since
they are still larger than many of the clearances
within an engine. Their size will not allow them
to enter the contact areas between many components
to promote accelerated wear.
Small particles are particles measuring between
5 and 25μ. Small particles are of greatest concern
because they can penetrate the clearances between
wear-sensitive components and promote accelerated
wear. And, because they are so small, they
are difficult to remove from the oil stream.
SAE Testing
In the 1988 Correlating Lube Oil Filtration Efficiencies
With Engine Wear technical paper published
by the Society of Automotive Engineers
(SAE), the relationship between filtration levels
and abrasive engine wear was established. Testing
determined that wear was reduced by as much as
70 percent by switching from a 40μ filter to a 15μ
filter.
The SAE conducted tests on a heavy-duty diesel
engine and an automotive gasoline engine, and
both provided consistent results.
New Technology Provides New Options
The SAE paper on filtration discusses the introduction
of synthetic fibers into the oil filter market,
which offer “the capability of achieving high
levels of filtration without the traditional sacrifice
of dirt holding capacity and increased flow restriction.”
yes your engine is doing fine with large particles of varnish,
sludge and wear from your engine floating around, oh but you change it alot.that is supposed to mean something, NOT! it does mean you spend
lots of money on oil that just meets the minimum requiered API spec on the bottle [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smokin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
if you really want to learn the importance of oil filtration, please spend the time to read the article below,about particle count analysis it will help you understand how filtration is as important as oil quality
http://www.practicingoilanalysis.com/art...oup=OilAnalysis
08-15-2007 01:44 AM
arisley
Re: Oil change int.

[ QUOTE ]
*** You are ignoring this user ***

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that is funny.
08-15-2007 01:43 AM
Snowman269
Re: Oil change int.

*** You are ignoring this user ***
08-15-2007 01:40 AM
arisley
Re: Oil change int.

[ QUOTE ]
Ford's warranty is only for 100K miles.

Your levels are much higher than a conventional oil changed at the manufacturer's recommended interval.

I don't think I know everything.

My analysis of your UOA isn't based on any chart.

I've posted UOA's somewhere here during my 10 years..but not to prove or make you believe anything.

You don't have to take my word. You don't have to believe anything.

Amsoil solicits and is affiliated with Oil Analyzers...."Oil Analyzers Inc. professional oil analysis services may be purchased by calling AMSOIL INC." Both reside within rock-throw of each other in Superior, WI.

Sootie, run your oil 55K miles, or as long as you want. I have already offered to send you some used Amsoil with only 20K miles on it for half price.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said.

I can agree with extended oil changes (10K) 55K is not extended oil change, it is neglected oil change. I do not think that any respectable oil company in the world meant for their oil to be used in such a volatile environement as an engine without more resposible oil change intervals. Can an engine do it and survive, yes (Sootie has proven that). Can an engine do it and thrive, time will tell. My question has been and will continue to be, WHY???
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