Is there a in engine test for the Camshaft Sensor? I ask this because I am getting a 2614 code and have seen comments that mention the resistance of the sensor should be between 800 and 1000 ohms. Is that in fact a Good spec?
HowieE
The only real way is with a labscope or ociloscope sometimes a scanner with graphing capabilities shows a good enough signal.
I have known of a few people compareing rise and fall of rpm for a rough test if the sensor is working or not but it really won't tell you how well.
Often a damaged tone ring or cam pin can cause a bad signal. as well as wireing issues
I have known of a few people compareing rise and fall of rpm for a rough test if the sensor is working or not but it really won't tell you how well.
Often a damaged tone ring or cam pin can cause a bad signal. as well as wireing issues
Passenger side of the engine near the front bottom of the block in the side of the block just above the pan is the CKP sensor. Just about the same place on the drivers side is the CMP or cam sensor
Kinda behind the power steering pump
By the way that sensor is basically a electromagnet. The electrical signal on a labscope shows up as a square wave, same for the crank.
Not shure a resistance reading will do you any good.
Kinda behind the power steering pump
By the way that sensor is basically a electromagnet. The electrical signal on a labscope shows up as a square wave, same for the crank.
Not shure a resistance reading will do you any good.
No the sensor is the magnet the cam has a pin pressed into the cam shaft the pin breaks the magnetic field as it passes thru the field causeing a pulse seen on a labscope as a square wave.
On the crank there is tone ring kinda like a bicycle sprocket missing 2 teeth. The gap creates the pulse signal. This is part of the crankshaft. Only way to repair is to replace the whole crank.
On the crank there is tone ring kinda like a bicycle sprocket missing 2 teeth. The gap creates the pulse signal. This is part of the crankshaft. Only way to repair is to replace the whole crank.
You can test both cam and crank sensor with a voltmeter and pass a metal object in front of it. Also the block must be very clean and free of any dirt or rust buildup before you mount them. With a scan tool look to see if you are getting a sync signal between the cam and crank sensor.
I may have mistakenly thought he wanted to know why he was looseing CAM signal.
He did ask specifically about a resistance check of the sensor which as I pointed out would be useless.
The old passing a metalic object by the sensor would just check continuity of circuit.
That he would be able to tell just as well by watching the sync signal change from no to yes.
He did ask specifically about a resistance check of the sensor which as I pointed out would be useless.
The old passing a metalic object by the sensor would just check continuity of circuit.
That he would be able to tell just as well by watching the sync signal change from no to yes.
The cam and crank sensors are PWM generators. The have a magnetic iron core inside a coil of wire. They typically have some resistance thru the sensor. They output an A/C signal, not a square wave signal. Only a Hall Effect sensor outputs a square wave signal (three or four wire with an input voltage of 5 or 12v). Also, polarity on these sensors is critical. The computer is looking for the positive side of the wave. If it sees the negative side first, it will not respond correctly.
That's great Danny, but this is not a Nissan Murano. The sensor does not have 3 wires. As stated above, it only has 2 wires.
Directly from the Ford Tech Service Manuals:
Camshaft Position (CMP) Sensor
The CMP sensor is a variable reluctance sensor, which responds to a rotating trigger protruding from the camshaft. The trigger is a single 9.525 mm (0.375 inches) diameter peg approximately 18 degrees wide, projecting 3-5 mm (0.12 - 0.20 inches) from the camshaft. The sensor produces a sine wave in response to the peg as it passes the sensor. The sensor output is required to determine the camshaft position.
Directly from the Ford Tech Service Manuals:
Camshaft Position (CMP) Sensor
The CMP sensor is a variable reluctance sensor, which responds to a rotating trigger protruding from the camshaft. The trigger is a single 9.525 mm (0.375 inches) diameter peg approximately 18 degrees wide, projecting 3-5 mm (0.12 - 0.20 inches) from the camshaft. The sensor produces a sine wave in response to the peg as it passes the sensor. The sensor output is required to determine the camshaft position.
To answer the OP question and again from the Ford Tech Manuals, the resistance thru the sensor should be 800-1000ohms.
rebutal
While the video is indeed of a car it really does not matter the labscope signal will still be a sguare wave form.
While I will not argue with the point of what the Ford service manual since I had to sell all my Ford manuals and my ocilloscope and lab scope after my heart attack.
I do still have copies of the 6.0 Ford Bibles, while not a true service manual they do show that yes the sensors are 2 wire they explain that the PCM itself reconditions the signal and produces a sguare wave labscope trace.
CKP (Crankshaft Position)
ELECTRICAL COMPONENTS
• The crankshaft position signal
source is a magnetic pickup sensor
mounted in the right front side of
the engine block.
• The sensor reacts to a target wheel
positioned on the crankshaft. The
target wheel is a 60 minus 2 tooth
steel disk with 58 evenly spaced
teeth and a slot that’s width is
equivalent to removing 2 teeth
(minus 2 slot) that is the SYNC
gap.
• The sensor will produce pulses for
each tooth edge that breaks the
magnetic field created by the
permanent magnet that is in the
106
creates a signal the relates to
crankshaft speed and position
relative to TDC (Top Dead Center).
The CMP creates a signal relative
to which stroke the piston is
currently on (compression or
exhaust).
end of the sensor.
• Crankshaft speed is derived from
the frequency of the CKP sensor
signal.
• Crankshaft position can be
determined by the sycronization of
the CMP peg signal to the CKP
minus 2 slot signal.
• Diagnostic information on the CKP
input signal is obtained by
performing accuracy checks on frequency,
and/or duty cycle with software
strategies.
• The PCM needs both the CKP and
CMP signal to calculate engine
speed and position. The CKP
52
CMP (Camshaft Position)
ELECTRICAL COMPONENTS
107
53
• The camshaft position signal source
is a magnetic pickup sensor
mounted on the left front side of the
engine block.
• The sensor reacts to a peg, pressed
into the camshaft at the front of the
engine.
• The peg will pass the sensor once
per camshaft revolution, the sensor
will produce a single pulse
correspondingly.
• Camshaft speed is derived from the
frequency of the CMP sensor
signal.
PCM to the FICM so that the FICM
can perform fueling calculations.
• The PCM conditions the signal and
sends it out as TACH signal for
body builder use.
• Diagnostic information on the CMP
input signal is obtained by
performing accuracy checks on
signal levels, frequency, and/or duty
cycle with software strategies.
• The ECM needs both the CKP and
CMP signal to calculate engine
speed and position. The CMP
creates a signal that the PCM uses
to indicate a particular bank.
• The CMP contains a permanent
magnet which creates a magnetic
field, when the magnetic field is
broken by the peg on the camshaft
a signal is created.
• A conditioned CMPO (Camshaft
Position Output) is sent from
CMP (Camshaft Position)
ELECTRICAL COMPONENTS
107
53
• The camshaft position signal source
is a magnetic pickup sensor
mounted on the left front side of the
engine block.
• The sensor reacts to a peg, pressed
into the camshaft at the front of the
engine.
• The peg will pass the sensor once
per camshaft revolution, the sensor
will produce a single pulse
correspondingly.
• Camshaft speed is derived from the
frequency of the CMP sensor
signal.
PCM to the FICM so that the FICM
can perform fueling calculations.
• The PCM conditions the signal and
sends it out as TACH signal for
body builder use.
• Diagnostic information on the CMP
input signal is obtained by
performing accuracy checks on
signal levels, frequency, and/or duty
cycle with software strategies.
• The ECM needs both the CKP and
CMP signal to calculate engine
speed and position. The CMP
creates a signal that the PCM uses
to indicate a particular bank.
• The CMP contains a permanent
magnet which creates a magnetic
field, when the magnetic field is
broken by the peg on the camshaft
a signal is created.
• A conditioned CMPO (Camshaft
Position Output) is sent from
Not really trying to argue just trying to explain why we have different view points.
While the video is indeed of a car it really does not matter the labscope signal will still be a sguare wave form.
While I will not argue with the point of what the Ford service manual since I had to sell all my Ford manuals and my ocilloscope and lab scope after my heart attack.
I do still have copies of the 6.0 Ford Bibles, while not a true service manual they do show that yes the sensors are 2 wire they explain that the PCM itself reconditions the signal and produces a sguare wave labscope trace.
CKP (Crankshaft Position)
ELECTRICAL COMPONENTS
• The crankshaft position signal
source is a magnetic pickup sensor
mounted in the right front side of
the engine block.
• The sensor reacts to a target wheel
positioned on the crankshaft. The
target wheel is a 60 minus 2 tooth
steel disk with 58 evenly spaced
teeth and a slot that’s width is
equivalent to removing 2 teeth
(minus 2 slot) that is the SYNC
gap.
• The sensor will produce pulses for
each tooth edge that breaks the
magnetic field created by the
permanent magnet that is in the
106
creates a signal the relates to
crankshaft speed and position
relative to TDC (Top Dead Center).
The CMP creates a signal relative
to which stroke the piston is
currently on (compression or
exhaust).
end of the sensor.
• Crankshaft speed is derived from
the frequency of the CKP sensor
signal.
• Crankshaft position can be
determined by the sycronization of
the CMP peg signal to the CKP
minus 2 slot signal.
• Diagnostic information on the CKP
input signal is obtained by
performing accuracy checks on frequency,
and/or duty cycle with software
strategies.
• The PCM needs both the CKP and
CMP signal to calculate engine
speed and position. The CKP
52
CMP (Camshaft Position)
ELECTRICAL COMPONENTS
107
53
• The camshaft position signal source
is a magnetic pickup sensor
mounted on the left front side of the
engine block.
• The sensor reacts to a peg, pressed
into the camshaft at the front of the
engine.
• The peg will pass the sensor once
per camshaft revolution, the sensor
will produce a single pulse
correspondingly.
• Camshaft speed is derived from the
frequency of the CMP sensor
signal.
PCM to the FICM so that the FICM
can perform fueling calculations.
• The PCM conditions the signal and
sends it out as TACH signal for
body builder use.
• Diagnostic information on the CMP
input signal is obtained by
performing accuracy checks on
signal levels, frequency, and/or duty
cycle with software strategies.
• The ECM needs both the CKP and
CMP signal to calculate engine
speed and position. The CMP
creates a signal that the PCM uses
to indicate a particular bank.
• The CMP contains a permanent
magnet which creates a magnetic
field, when the magnetic field is
broken by the peg on the camshaft
a signal is created.
• A conditioned CMPO (Camshaft
Position Output) is sent from
CMP (Camshaft Position)
ELECTRICAL COMPONENTS
107
53
• The camshaft position signal source
is a magnetic pickup sensor
mounted on the left front side of the
engine block.
• The sensor reacts to a peg, pressed
into the camshaft at the front of the
engine.
• The peg will pass the sensor once
per camshaft revolution, the sensor
will produce a single pulse
correspondingly.
• Camshaft speed is derived from the
frequency of the CMP sensor
signal.
PCM to the FICM so that the FICM
can perform fueling calculations.
• The PCM conditions the signal and
sends it out as TACH signal for
body builder use.
• Diagnostic information on the CMP
input signal is obtained by
performing accuracy checks on
signal levels, frequency, and/or duty
cycle with software strategies.
• The ECM needs both the CKP and
CMP signal to calculate engine
speed and position. The CMP
creates a signal that the PCM uses
to indicate a particular bank.
• The CMP contains a permanent
magnet which creates a magnetic
field, when the magnetic field is
broken by the peg on the camshaft
a signal is created.
• A conditioned CMPO (Camshaft
Position Output) is sent from
Not really trying to argue just trying to explain why we have different view points.
That's great, but again, none of that discusses wave form.
There are only 2-wires to a PWM sensor. This is a magnetic iron core inside a coil of wire. It outputs a sine wave with a positive phase and a negative phase. As the pin approaches the core, a positive voltage is induced into the coil. This potential falls as the pin approaches the center line of the coil, then falls further to a negative potential as the pin passes to the other side of the core. Once past the core, the potential retuns to zero. Thus a sine wave with both a positive and negative cycle is produced.
A Hall Effect sensor has a transistor that is biased by a magnet. A reluctor wheel of some sort passes between the transistor and the magnet to disturb the magnetic field and un-biases the transistor. When the transistor is biased, the output voltage is high. When the transistor is not biased, the output voltage is low. This is how a square wave s produced.
In the first couple of min of the video you posted above, the instructor says that a Hall Effect sensor has 3 or more wires. Key Power, ground and an output signal. Our PWM sensors still only have 2 wires.
There are only 2-wires to a PWM sensor. This is a magnetic iron core inside a coil of wire. It outputs a sine wave with a positive phase and a negative phase. As the pin approaches the core, a positive voltage is induced into the coil. This potential falls as the pin approaches the center line of the coil, then falls further to a negative potential as the pin passes to the other side of the core. Once past the core, the potential retuns to zero. Thus a sine wave with both a positive and negative cycle is produced.
A Hall Effect sensor has a transistor that is biased by a magnet. A reluctor wheel of some sort passes between the transistor and the magnet to disturb the magnetic field and un-biases the transistor. When the transistor is biased, the output voltage is high. When the transistor is not biased, the output voltage is low. This is how a square wave s produced.
In the first couple of min of the video you posted above, the instructor says that a Hall Effect sensor has 3 or more wires. Key Power, ground and an output signal. Our PWM sensors still only have 2 wires.
No but I never said it was a Hall Effect sensor. The PCM changes the 2 wire signal somehow.
It shows up as a square wave form to a labscope or ociloscope. I know this by haveing run both ociliscope and labscope tests on hundreds of 6.0's in my time.
I will not even pretend to know how or why it does it I just know that it does by viewing hundreds of labscope traces on 6.0.
Most scanners will only show sync or no sync. With a labscope you see the actual signal and can determine the condition of the cam or crank signal and tell if they are damaged in some way. A bent pin or damaged tooth in the tone ring can throw you out of sync and out of time. Since injector timeing is determined by the pcm by compareing the 2 signals.
It shows up as a square wave form to a labscope or ociloscope. I know this by haveing run both ociliscope and labscope tests on hundreds of 6.0's in my time.
I will not even pretend to know how or why it does it I just know that it does by viewing hundreds of labscope traces on 6.0.
Most scanners will only show sync or no sync. With a labscope you see the actual signal and can determine the condition of the cam or crank signal and tell if they are damaged in some way. A bent pin or damaged tooth in the tone ring can throw you out of sync and out of time. Since injector timeing is determined by the pcm by compareing the 2 signals.
The cam sensor on a 7.3L IS a Hall Effect sensor. That's why it has 3-wires. The reluctor wheel is on the front front of the cam. It's output is definitely a square wave 0-12v.
The Taurus SHO V-6 engines have Hall Effect sensors for both crank and cam (called Low Data Rate EI). 3.8L V-6 engines in Mustang and Thunderbird of the late 80's and early 90's had Hall sensors for cam and crank as did the 2.3L engines of the same time period. In the late 90's these systems evolved into High Data Rate EI and used PWM A/C signal generators. This was a requirement of our government to be OBD II compliant for misfire monitors.
The Taurus SHO V-6 engines have Hall Effect sensors for both crank and cam (called Low Data Rate EI). 3.8L V-6 engines in Mustang and Thunderbird of the late 80's and early 90's had Hall sensors for cam and crank as did the 2.3L engines of the same time period. In the late 90's these systems evolved into High Data Rate EI and used PWM A/C signal generators. This was a requirement of our government to be OBD II compliant for misfire monitors.
Back to the originally scheduled program: did the original issue get resolved?
I never saw what the problem was, only a mention of the code and how is CKP and CMP sensors tested.
I am still curious as to whether the truck has an issue with CMP input or is it the common cranks too long appearance of that code when there is no issue with CMP sensor, its wiring, or the mounting pad.
I never saw what the problem was, only a mention of the code and how is CKP and CMP sensors tested.
I am still curious as to whether the truck has an issue with CMP input or is it the common cranks too long appearance of that code when there is no issue with CMP sensor, its wiring, or the mounting pad.
No jimmy he quit responding. Not that I can blame him once Shoguy and I got off on our tangent I think he ducked for cover.
My appologies OP
Back to our debate, I have an idea. You say you have a shop bound to have a scanner somewhere that has a labscope function why don't you post up even just a picture of the screen of your labscope trace of a 6.0. If I am wrong I will shut up and try to bow out gracefully and concede the debate. If I still had the equipent I would be more than happy to do it myself.
My appologies OP
Back to our debate, I have an idea. You say you have a shop bound to have a scanner somewhere that has a labscope function why don't you post up even just a picture of the screen of your labscope trace of a 6.0. If I am wrong I will shut up and try to bow out gracefully and concede the debate. If I still had the equipent I would be more than happy to do it myself.
Thanks guys for your continued interest. For some reason I am not getting notifications of updated posts. I have checked my preferences and things look right. Will keep a closer eye out.
Now back to the original question and an update of it.
The truck has failed to start twice recently. The first time we disconnected the glow plugs and started it with a shot of ether, had to get home. It ran fine after that for several days. The second time it failed, in the driveway, I just waited several hours and started fine. At that point I questioned if it could be temperature sensitive and tried to start the truck early each am. Temperature does not seam to be the problem.
I started the truck yesterday with a full battery and it kicked off in seconds. About 20 seconds later it stumbled quick noticeably. Rev it a bit and is smoothed out. Got an 0314 code. There seams to be 2 different explanations of that code so if someone has a 6.0 interpretation that would be helpful.
My original question about testing the cam sensor was prompted by a post that mentioned the resistance reading across the sensor needing to be between 800 and 1000 ohms.
If that is a valid test is there a connector, and numbered terminal points, that is more accessible across the top of the engine that I can test that resistance.
At the moment I am working with one arm, shoulder surgery, so not interested in crawling under.
I had checked the FICM after the first problem and had 48 volts key on an running. I do not have a computer to monitor things in real time.
Now back to the original question and an update of it.
The truck has failed to start twice recently. The first time we disconnected the glow plugs and started it with a shot of ether, had to get home. It ran fine after that for several days. The second time it failed, in the driveway, I just waited several hours and started fine. At that point I questioned if it could be temperature sensitive and tried to start the truck early each am. Temperature does not seam to be the problem.
I started the truck yesterday with a full battery and it kicked off in seconds. About 20 seconds later it stumbled quick noticeably. Rev it a bit and is smoothed out. Got an 0314 code. There seams to be 2 different explanations of that code so if someone has a 6.0 interpretation that would be helpful.
My original question about testing the cam sensor was prompted by a post that mentioned the resistance reading across the sensor needing to be between 800 and 1000 ohms.
If that is a valid test is there a connector, and numbered terminal points, that is more accessible across the top of the engine that I can test that resistance.
At the moment I am working with one arm, shoulder surgery, so not interested in crawling under.
I had checked the FICM after the first problem and had 48 volts key on an running. I do not have a computer to monitor things in real time.
The fact that you got it to run with ether tells me that the CMP and CKP sensors are not the issue. ESPECIALLY since 6.0 issues with HP oil system are often overcome with faster cranking. I use gasoline on a rag held by air inlet on back filter cover with filter removed and drive in loads of towed in no start 6.0's. The engine will try to run on gasoline vapors (and gasoline vapors are like 1/10th or less as risky as ether) and once it gets vapor and cranking speed goes 200 rpm+ they will start and run fine. Often the engine will die once it warms up and oil temp comes up and the volume of the leak goes up with the heat thinned oil.
ICP trick
The 6.0 uses a computer controled injection system. It is electricaly controled by the PCM and FICM. The High Pressure oil system hydraulicly moves the internal parts of the injector.
The oil system has 2 parts the low pressure system which lubes the engine and feeds the oil to the High Pressure system resivoir which in turn feeds the high pressure pump which pulses the injector when told to by the PCM and FICM.
The low pressure pump is mounted on the crankshaft and front cover behind the harmonic balancer. The HPOP [high pressure pump] is mounted below a cover in the valley underneath the Turbo, this is also where the ICP and IPR are located on a 03. Hard to get to.
The ICP tells the PCM what oil pressure the HP oil system has available to fire the injectors
The PCM needs to see a min. pressure of 500 psi before it will tell the injectors to fire.
The trick is unplugging the ICP the PCM sees no signal and the PCM usees a default setting to start. It lies to its self that it has enough pressure to fire the injectors.
If it starts and runs then the HPOP did indeed have enough pressure to start and run. This in a way is a crude method to test the ICP sensor and the HP oil system at the same time.
I have never tried to unplug one running never found the need to.
Sorry no simple answer for this.
The 6.0 uses a computer controled injection system. It is electricaly controled by the PCM and FICM. The High Pressure oil system hydraulicly moves the internal parts of the injector.
The oil system has 2 parts the low pressure system which lubes the engine and feeds the oil to the High Pressure system resivoir which in turn feeds the high pressure pump which pulses the injector when told to by the PCM and FICM.
The low pressure pump is mounted on the crankshaft and front cover behind the harmonic balancer. The HPOP [high pressure pump] is mounted below a cover in the valley underneath the Turbo, this is also where the ICP and IPR are located on a 03. Hard to get to.
The ICP tells the PCM what oil pressure the HP oil system has available to fire the injectors
The PCM needs to see a min. pressure of 500 psi before it will tell the injectors to fire.
The trick is unplugging the ICP the PCM sees no signal and the PCM usees a default setting to start. It lies to its self that it has enough pressure to fire the injectors.
If it starts and runs then the HPOP did indeed have enough pressure to start and run. This in a way is a crude method to test the ICP sensor and the HP oil system at the same time.
I have never tried to unplug one running never found the need to.
Sorry no simple answer for this.
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
