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Discussion Starter #1
First let me start off with this: I was not trying to solve a transmission issue, but rather extend the life of my transmission by doing this. My current transmission has about 22,000 miles and about 2.5 years old. it's a Ford Reman HD 4R100, not the standard build. My normal temp were 60-70 over ambient unloaded and 75-100 over when pulling our travel trailer.

So, last weekend, I pulled the existing transmission cooler out and was surprised to find a 13 row cooler instead of the normal 9 row. I guess they must install this with the HD 4R100 instead of the stock 9 row. From what I understand, the 13 row is usually found in the V10 trucks.

I already had the new 26 row cooler I ordered from Tousley Ford and all the assorted stuff to install it, so I went ahead and installed it.

All is well with it, but it only dropped my unloaded trans temps by maybe 5 degrees. I have not tested it with the travel trailer hooked up yet, and I hope to get a better drop in temps with it.

anyone else do this and think, "meh"? I always heard good reports about doing this and maybe I was just expecting more out of it, or maybe people actually needed to change their trans cooler anyhow, so it gave a better result.
 

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I can see two possible causes for your lack of improvement. One would be a weak bypass spring that is allowing fluid to bypass the cooler. The second would be a lack of airflow secondary to blocked fins in the radiator or intercooler.


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Discussion Starter #4
I can see two possible causes for your lack of improvement. One would be a weak bypass spring that is allowing fluid to bypass the cooler. The second would be a lack of airflow secondary to blocked fins in the radiator or intercooler.
I guess I'm wondering if the 13row cooler was just actuially doing a pretty good job already since it was getting me in the 60-70 deg over ambient range.. and according to the referenced write up from this site linked below, 60-80 over ambient is what's to be expected with the 6.0 cooler.

I will say my condenser has had it's fair share of bugs killed on it and could use a comb through the fins, but the radiator and CAC behind it are in really good shape and not loo long ago rinsed free of dirt that had built up ion them.

What is a typical temp. reduction with that set up if all is well?
Well.. that's the thing.. I'm not sure if I should have gotten much or a reduction or not.

according to this write up
www.thedieselstop.com/forums/attachments/f25/16285d1360339380-6-0l-trans-cooler-kit-6.0-transmission-cooler-write-up.pdf

Now you can enjoy cooler transmission temperatures while towing, or just driving down the road. My temperature gauge used to run 160-170 while empty and now is 130-140. When towing I had seen up to 220 degrees. Now the most I have seen is 170. Your transmission will run about 60-80 degrees over ambient with a 6.0 cooler installed.
and I'm on the low end of that running 55-65 over ambient empty now, but was 60-70 prior to the 6.0 cooler.

The hottest It's been around here since the cooler swap was 81deg and I saw 145 on an interstate run of 75-80mph. stuck in stop and go traffic in Atlanta, I'm seeing 55 over ambient and 60-65deg over at 55-65mph unloaded. I haven't had a chance to test loaded/towing yet.
 

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My two cents. Since the radiator temp is controlled by a thermostat and the trans fluid flows thru it, I would think a trans cooler would be much more effective above 200 degrees. At temps below 200, your cooler is arguing with your radiator.

If I were still unhappy with the temps after a cooler, I would probably consider an electric fan near it.

My truck (and transmission) have 188k miles, most of which is pulling a 14k 5th wheel. It has had a trans cooler most of those miles. Sad to say, that I have no auxiliary gauges. My true temps might scare me, but they have worked for all those miles.
 

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My two cents. Since the radiator temp is controlled by a thermostat and the trans fluid flows thru it, I would think a trans cooler would be much more effective above 200 degrees. At temps below 200, your cooler is arguing with your radiator.
Part of my experience as an Automatic Transmission Engineer at Ford was spent in transmission cooling.

In this capacity I tested transmission coolers, including the radiator cooler. Your assumption that the trans temp is arguing with the radiator is false. That does not happen.

The engine temperature is controlled by the thermostat. The radiator temperature is not controlled. It is a function of engine temp, engine speed, air temp, humidity (higher humidity cools BETTER!,) wind speed and direction, and many other things.

The transmission cooler is in the cool side of the radiator. This is where the coolant has already passed through the heat exchanger and is ready to return to the engine. The coolant here can be as much as 120°F cooler than the engine temperature. So if the engine is running 200°F then the coolant in the cold side of the radiator could be around 80°F. Usually it is more like 150°F.

From my actual measurements the ATF going to the cooler is ALWAYS hotter than the coolant around the cooler. So the radiator ALWAYS cools the ATF. Always. Without exception.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Part of my experience as an Automatic Transmission Engineer at Ford was spent in transmission cooling.
So Mark (I was hoping you'd pop in), what do you think of my findings with the change from the 13 to 26 row cooler not being much of a change? from my searching, it looks like my temps are in line with what others see using the 6.0 coolers but they normally went 9 row to 26 row.

did I waste my time/money or do you think I will see better temps under heavy load conditions?

Like I started off with, I wasn't trying to solve an issue since my temps were not high before and the transmission is a low mileage HD 4R100, but rather I was doing this for insurance to keep the transmission healthy.
 

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I think it is good insurance.

If the trans is not producing a lot of heat the cooler won't remove a lot of heat. All coolers are more effective with a larger difference between what needs to be cooled and the air temp. When the trans isn't working hard there is a smaller difference between the two temps and the cooler's efficiency is low. When the trans is producing a lot of heat because it is working hard the efficiency will be higher. This will limit the temps that you will see.

The summary of my long winded answer is that you will see better results when the trans is working hard.
 

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I think it is good insurance.

If the trans is not producing a lot of heat the cooler won't remove a lot of heat. All coolers are more effective with a larger difference between what needs to be cooled and the air temp. When the trans isn't working hard there is a smaller difference between the two temps and the cooler's efficiency is low. When the trans is producing a lot of heat because it is working hard the efficiency will be higher. This will limit the temps that you will see.

The summary of my long winded answer is that you will see better results when the trans is working hard.
Mark, is it possible he has plugged cooler line inside the transmission so he doesn't notice much of a change?
 

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Not inside the trans, but an external line could have a restriction. I think it just won't make a big difference unloaded.
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
Mark, is it possible he has plugged cooler line inside the transmission so he doesn't notice much of a change?
I didn't measure it or time it, but I did test flow at the end of the return line and it flowed pretty damn fast, so I doubt it's a clogged line. I just wanted to make sure that I didn't kink something with hoses since they are routed funky compared to the originals.

Maybe I still had some air in the cooler that finally worked its way out of the system. Today's drive home (90 minutes to go 37 miles in stop and go traffic) the most I saw was 58 over ambient (temps were between 63 to 70 deg ambient and it maxed @ 121 at the test port) . That would probably have had me up around 70 or a bit over before. It was rare to get up to speeds enough to lock the converter or even get into 3rd gear.

I guess it's better than the initial drive now. I really think the 13 row cooler was doing a better job than the 9 rows do and my results are just going to be different than what I had expected due to that.
 

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Oh boy.Lets start with the basics.First I am not a automatic transmission mechanic.I am diesel/hydro_Ok.I noticed you said you were not trying to solve a problem with the up sized trans cooler and it's a low mile HD.You also said you did not notice a big difference for from the stock radiator.Am I to assume correctly that that temp reading on the stock radiator was taken with the stock cooler from that came on the truck and is now cooling a new transmission?A fresh cooler was not used at time of install?
I noticed nobody asked or I missed that.I am not a trans guy so...Or was it a fresh stock size cooler installed at time of trans. install,you d rove it for awhile and decided to upsize and I should not have assumed.There are trans experts here I just thought that was a pertinent question to be brought up.
Good Luck
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Oh boy.Lets start with the basics.First I am not a automatic transmission mechanic.I am diesel/hydro_Ok.I noticed you said you were not trying to solve a problem with the up sized trans cooler and it's a low mile HD.You also said you did not notice a big difference for from the stock radiator.Am I to assume correctly that that temp reading on the stock radiator was taken with the stock cooler from that came on the truck and is now cooling a new transmission?A fresh cooler was not used at time of install?
I noticed nobody asked or I missed that.I am not a trans guy so...Or was it a fresh stock size cooler installed at time of trans. install,you d rove it for awhile and decided to upsize and I should not have assumed.There are trans experts here I just thought that was a pertinent question to be brought up.
Good Luck

Oh boy... Reread the 2nd paragraph in the original post. You were incorrect to assume that. The cooler was replaced with the transmission. That's Ford's SOP with a new transmission. They do not back flush old coolers as they feel they cannot be properly cleaned that way.

From the Technical Instruction sheet http://www.fordparts.com/FileUploads/CMSFiles/TransmissionInstructionSheets_E40D-4R100-HvyDty4R100-Trqshft5R110_FCS-8427-AA.pdf
CAUTION: On 4R100/Heavy Duty 4R100, whenever the transmission is replaced on 1999 MY and newer F-Series Super Duty® or 2000 MY and newer Excursion, the Oil-to-Air (OTA) cooler MUST be REPLACED.
Now, I'm not sure if it's SOP to put the 13 row V10 cooler in with the HD 4R100 (it is the HD rebuild, not the standard rebuild, so maybe it's part of it but not listed as part of it). or if I got that because that's what they had and I got upgrade to the 13 row over the normal 9 row used in the diesels.

There's no mention of what OTA cooler that they use in the Sell Sheet
http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/attachments/f145/6333d1264118572-4r100-heavy-duty-transmissions-4r100hdwith3100.pdf

So, yes.. I drove for a while almost 3 years now (warranty is about up) and I up sized from 13 row to 26 row thinking I had a 9 row until I pulled out a 13 row.
 

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I guess I missed it in the existing words.Am aware of putting new cooler is supposed to be part of program.I was not sure if you were and did say maybe I missed it.
The "oh boy was not a thing about you.It was about possible restriction.Sorry.
 

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Not inside the trans, but an external line could have a restriction. I think it just won't make a big difference unloaded.
Right...I meant inside the 'radiator'. :icon_wink: In a later post the author said he did a flow test and everything looked good. So you are probably right. He needs a heat load to really see what difference his new cooler will make.
 

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I still have the V10 cooler with 13 rows, 26 plates, which I upgraded to from the original 10 row, 20 plate diesel transmission cooler. I had already done this upgrade prior to Mark Kovalsky changing responsibilities at Ford to open up his own special can of whip-ass on the then new PowerTorq / TorqueShift transmission cooling system which resulted in the bigger 6.0L coolers and lines.

While severely tempted to make the same jump from the V10 cooler to the 6.0 cooler that you did, Bryce B, I had a feeling that in actual usage I might not be as "impressed", as you put it, as I would be if I were jumping from the original 7.3L cooler (which was built without an OTW cooler, that I also added).

I thought about all the posts where people reported that their 4R100's failed, and I also thought about the several 4R100 failures that have occurred in trucks from folks I personally know. Most of these failures occurred at slow speeds, often in reverse. Not much air flowing through an OTA cooler in reverse.

So I installed twin 8" electric high cfm puller fans directly behind the V10 cooler with an air directing shroud, thermostatic control, and a manually operated switch. The switch enables me to turn on the fans PRIOR to backing a trailer up a steep driveway, in anticipation of heating up the trans fluid.

The twin fans fit neatly under the intercooler, which brings up another point: One of the reasons I imagine that the original 7.3L cooler was smaller than the V10 cooler was because the diesel engine had the intercooler, and it appears that the original design intent was to not have the heat extracted from the transmission cooler flow through the intercooler.

However, the V10 cooler exchanger itself still does not intersect with the cooling air path to the intercooler, although the top oriented input and output lines are somewhat higher and have to be gently bent to fit between the intercooler and the rad support.

The 6.0L coolers, on the other hand, do partially intersect with the intercooler's cooling air path, which in theory could make the intercooler a little less efficient at reducing charge air temperatures. However, the flip side is losing a transmission to heat, so the lesser of two evils wins the day.

But for those who do have the V10 cooler, perhaps installed by Ford with a reman tranny as we are assuming happened with Bryce B's truck, it may be worthwhile to keep the V10 cooler, so as to maintain maximum temperature drop across the intercooler, since the intercooler would not be confronted with heat dissipated from the taller variety of transmission coolers.

If further cooling capacity is desired, one can add electric fans, so as to create cooling efficiency to the transmission during times of peak loading, when the TCC is unlocked, and when there little to no forward moving air flow through the exchangers, such as during stop and go traffic, slow speed trailer maneuvering, or when in reverse.


Postscript:

Adding electric fans to the existing front mounted cooler has another benefit: The fans do not have to be on all the time for the existing OEM heat exchanger to work naturally with oncoming front facing airflow. A formerly popular mod was to add a third, remote mounted, fan coupled transmission cooler underneath the truck somewhere. In fact, one of the earliest "write ups" on this website, back when it was on ABOL or Ford-Diesel, written by this site's former photo editor, details one such installation. But implementing a remote mounted transmission cooler kit with fan adds additional plumbing, which can unfavorably increase resistance to flow as well as exposure to fluid loss through a failed line or line connection under the truck. Also, in order for a horizontally oriented cooler to be effective, the fan must be running constantly, as one cannot position the heat exchanger vertically for natural flow through and still maintain breakover angles and ground clearance.
 

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One of the reasons I imagine that the original 7.3L cooler was smaller than the V10 cooler was because the diesel engine had the intercooler, and it appears that the original design intent was to not have the heat extracted from the transmission cooler flow through the intercooler.
That's a good theory, but I have a different one. I wasn't around the 4R100 program when this happened, but it was the same people doing the cooling system that I worked with on other programs, so I know how they "think." I put that in quotes because I don't call it thinking, I call it weaseling out of their responsibilities.

Ford has standardized tests that they run to develop and prove out cooling. The theory is that if it passes these tests it will do fine in the field. That led to some warped thinking.

One of those tests is climbing a steep grade at 30 MPH at max GCWR, high temps, high sun load, and low humidity. These are all the worst case for cooling.

The diesel locks the converter at 30 MPH with heavy enough throttle. I think the V10 did not. A locked converter makes a LOT less heat than an unlocked one. So this standardized testing allowed the cooling weebs to pass their tests with a smaller cooler. These people had their performance judged by how much the cooling system cost. They had no negatives applied to them if the transmission cooked. Those negative marks went to the transmission staff.

If you, the customer, ran up the grade at 30 MPH your trans might stay cool. If you went 29 MPH the converter may unlock and cook the trans. But they didn't care about that, it passed their tests. I had several knock down drag out screaming matches over this subject. Those people were just plain stupid.

Much later the Automatic Transmission Engineering Office took responsibility for transmission cooling. That's when things got better. We made sure it passed the standard tests AND the common sense tests.
 

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I have set up a similar transmission cooling system as NYB

These are photo’s from a transmission oil cooler upgrade that I performed on a 2003 F250 7.3ltr turbo diesel after a 4R100HD
transmission was installed due to heavy towing transmission failure.

First I made a much bigger air/air oil cooler using an adrad core. Core sizes were 600x300x37 which made a huge difference on
overall temp. On normal hwy driving it sat on 160 degrees f without a load, still not a 100% happy, I wanted to see temps
around 200f when towing, so rather than put an air/air cooler in the same size as the condensor I opted to go for a water/air
oil cooler.

Water cools up to 30 times more efficiently than air so pretty sure we could easily drop another 10-20 degrees f out of the trans.

Originally I had two Spal pusher fans on the condensor but they made not a scrap of difference as the oil cooler sat behind the
condensor in a space that was already there in front of the intercooler. 2nd time around I built the oil/air oil cooler and made
up the mounting brackets for the water cooler to go below the oil cooler. (as per pics). I then mounted the two pusher fans to
both units which meant pushing the condensor about 30mm forward .


The fans and pump to circulate the coolant around the oil cooler only comes on when the oil in the air/air reaches 176 degrees F
which means that when the oil gets to the water to oil cooler would be around 140 degrees F(aprox). After it goes through the water
oil cooler temp should be somewhere around 120-130 degrees F. I have a temp gauge at the coldest spot just before it goes back
into the trans.

Incidentally Trans has a heavy duty clutches and stall converter (4R100HD)

Photos show condenser the first time around with the two fans bolted to it. Custom mounting brackets for fans riveted to condenser.

Pics of Water to air oil cooler that was custom fabricated . It is a specially built oil cooler by Adrad in which oil passes the
the oilcooler tubes and water passes the other way over the fins and tube. Tested to 40psi and welded in such a way that water
can NOT get into the oil side.

Pics of steel mounting bracket for the water to oil cooler (Fully rubber mounted for vibration). The best and easiest place to
mount this was the crossmember to protect the transfer case behind the gearbox crossember.

You will also note the small 12v booster pump which is suffice

Pics Air/air oil cooler on top of water cooler for the water to oil cooler.
 

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I opted to go for a water/air
oil cooler.
Excellent choice.

Incidentally Trans has a heavy duty clutches and stall converter (4R100HD)
Of course it has a stall converter. Every automatic trans ever built has had a stall converter. All converters are stall converters. The question is, "What RPM does it stall at? Is it a low RPM stall or a high RPM stall?"

Diesels like low RPM stall converters. An engine that makes peak torque at 1600 RPM does not need to stall at 2500 RPM.

Tested to 40psi and welded in such a way that water can NOT get into the oil side.
I'm not sure what you were testing at 40 PSI. That's fine for the water side, the trans oil side can see more than that. If I remember correctly the nominal pressure in the 4R100 cooler lines is about 30 PSI. It can go higher than that. By contrast the 5R110W can see over 60 PSI in the cooler lines.
 
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