[nubiecanobie]

I just made a toe-in measuring tool and measured a toe-in of 3/4" (tires pointing towards the center)!!!. Would that explain the tires wearing on the inside? Would that also cause the tires to slip in a quick 90 degree turn in the rain?

 

[Mr_Roboto]

Well obviously 3/4 inches is way too much toe in. You should be at about 1/16" I believe.

Be careful is your tires have raised lettering on the sidewalls, as they can really throw the measurements off using devices measuring off the tire sidewalls.

When I measure toe-in, I like to run the front tires on thick stacks of newspaper to allow them to turn more freely. In a shop the toe-in would be measured with the front tires on bearing plates that let the tires move freely.

 

[toalpi]

I aim for about 1/16. I use two yard sticks held slightly overlapped in the middle. I lay on my back underneath and measure between the rims. Just reference a number on one stick where the sticks overlap. Using the tires leaves too much room for error.

 

[nubiecanobie]

I made a tool out of a $2 piece of aluminum screen door frame from Home Depot (I think it's about 6 or 7 ft long). I cut 2 arms, ea. about 6" long from it and epoxy it to the remaining long piece at right angles on each end to make a caliper, to clear the transmission pan. At the end of each arm I epoxied a push pin. I now have an accurate tire marking tool. I put a piece of masking tape running horizontally from center of each tire towards the rear covering the threads. Take the caliper and stick one pin through the masking tape into the thread of one tire. Go to the other tire and do the same. The caliper is now hanging from the tires on the 2 pins and you have 2 marks. Remove the caliper and circle the marks with a pen. Start ur engine and roll forward a few revolutions such that the 2 marks are now pointing forward and the masking tape is horizontal. Take the caliper and stick one pin in one of the marks. Take the other pin and stick it next to the remaing mark. Measure the distance between the 2 marks on the one tire and that's ur toe-in or toe -out depending where the last mark fell.

I've found this method of measuring toe-in quite accurate and repeatable. A measurement can be made in less than 5 minutes and you don't even have to be on ur back.

Mr R, do you think I need to put newspaper down or is rolling forward a few revoltions in a parking lot sufficient?

As far as adjusting the toe-in (the only adjustment is on driver's side only), what's the best way to center the steering wheel? Is the steering wheel on a spline and does it come out readily?

 

[Mr_Roboto]

Yes, if there is only one toe adjusting sleeve then the steering wheel will have no master spline and you can pulll it off and reposition. You will need to pull off the nut and use a steering wheel puller.

Setting the toe-in on a hard surface can be difficult, because the tires can load the tie rods in unpredictable ways. If anything, I would do it on grass so that the tires can move easier.

 

[nubiecanobie]

toe-in adj sleeve won't budge

I loosened the 2 lock nuts, sprayed with penetrating fluid, used 2 pipe wrenches on it but it won't budge.
What's the trick? Shouild I heat it?

 

[Mr_Roboto]

Re: toe-in adj sleeve won't budge

Nooo. Never heat steering components.

Loosen up the pinch bolts, then use a hammer and tap each of the clamps off the sides of the sleeve. Now use a large screwdriver and hammer the end into the sleeve split to spread the sleeve open. Now it will turn like it was made of butter. Once you get things set, tap the clamps back onto the sleeve. You may need to spread them a little with a large screwdriver to get them back on.

Snap-On etc makes a special tool the shops use that goes on a ratchet that opens and turns the sleeve.

 

[nubiecanobie]

Re: toe-in adj sleeve won't budge

The grounds finally dried from all the rain so I was able to adjust the toe-in to 1/16" total. Did it on black top. Checked the final adjustment twice and it was repeatable so I feel comfortable with it for now. Will check it on grass when it's dry enough (no I don't smoke Builder Bob lol).

Turns out I did not loosen the pinch bolts enough on my first try thus why the adj. sleeve wouldn't budge.

The van drives much nicer now. Much less wandering at hwy speed.

Thanks for the great advice Mr R! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

 

[Yardbrew]

Re: toe-in adj sleeve won't budge

It's interesting that decreasing toe in would help with a "wandering" problem.

When I do toe in, I jack up the vehicle and spin the front tires and mark the middle of the spinning tread surface with a piece of white chalk. Then I take a small nail and make a track in the chalked area. Then I measure with a set of homemade calipers. I drive it about 10 feet and make the measurements....never worried about the surface...maybe I should.

Yardbrew

 

[toalpi]

Re: toe-in adj sleeve won't budge

[ QUOTE ]
I drive it about 10 feet and make the measurements....never worried about the surface...maybe I should.

Yardbrew

[/ QUOTE ] Staying on a hard, level, and smooth surface would be best. You do not want to use the front brakes. So either roll to a stop or use a very light application of the parking brake. When I do it in the garage I just manually roll the vehicle back and forth with the final movement being "foward" atleast a foot. You would need more than one foot with all of the slack in the "I" beam front end.

 

[Mr_Roboto]

Re: toe-in adj sleeve won't budge

Remember that you are shooting for *zero* toe-in going down the road. As the tires go down the road, they will toe-out. Hence the slight toe-in in the static alignment to compensate.

If the tires are on a hard rough surface, they will have the most tendancy to bind and give you false readings. Shops use frictionless bearing plates which will give perfect readings. I recommend a stack of newspaper, which I believe allows the tires to turn relatively easily.

Also when setting toe-in, make sure the steering column is unlocked or the steering gearbox can cause binding too.

 

[toalpi]

Re: toe-in adj sleeve won't budge

[ QUOTE ]
Shops use frictionless bearing plates

[/ QUOTE ] Shops don't have the ability to roll the vehicle backwards and then forwards after every adjustment. It is hooked up to the equipment and they need to be able to make adjustments without moving the vehicle. I think my method works pretty good. There are no frictionless bearing plates on the roads that I drive on. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif Rolling forward to a stop (without the brakes) better simulates the real world that is outside of the shop.

 

[nubiecanobie]

Re: toe-in adj sleeve won't budge

It's beautiful out and I spent 10 min. and checked the toe-in adj in a parking lot twice and it was right on at 1/16" both times. I didn't have any newspaper so it was on blacktop. I will try the newspaper when I have some next time.

Anyway, I didn't touch the brakes and pushed it half a tire rev the first time (E350 is damm heavy and hard to push!) and 4.5 tire rev the next and they were both the same at 1/16".

While doing the check, I noticed the driver's radius arm have shiny metal tire marks while the pass. side does not. I then put the wheel lock to lock and saw that the driver's tire touched the radius arm while the pass side does not. Could this be the reason for the driver's tire sticking out more for clearancce reasons? Obviously it's not enough clearance (on mine anyway) but maybe it's a compromise otherwise if Ford made the driver's wheel stick out more it'd look and handle even more weird? Out of curiosity, can you check the tire to radius arm clearance on your rigs and report back? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

 

[nubiecanobie]

Re: toe-in adj sleeve won't budge

I think I know why my van had 3/4" toe-in. The inner tie rod (the long one driver's side) has a weird bend in it. I looked at a new one and it didn't have such a bend, which was caused by an idiot tow truck driver with prev owner.

Yeah, tie rods are the first thing you see and easy to hook so why not hey? Fricken jerks!!!!

So the question is: Should I leave or replace the bent tie rod where the 3/4" toe in was adjusted to spec?

 

[MikeL46]

Re: toe-in adj sleeve won't budge

You can probably straighten the thing and use it. You can't use it bent, the strength is mostly gone and it will bend more at the same place.

Obviously, you have to reset the toe-in.

Mike

 

[Mr_Roboto]

Re: toe-in adj sleeve won't budge

You should replace the bent tie rod end. Once they are bent, they lose part of their strength.

 

[toalpi]

Re: toe-in adj sleeve won't budge

Bent steering components are normally something that should be addressed right away. Having said that; Quigley bends (or used to, and possibly still does) a long steering component. They did (do) this to make slightly more clearance. They use a combination of E and F components to make it work. This bend can cause some "flopping" (for lack of a better word) up and down of that long section in some situations while steering. The normal travel and necessary movement in the steering linkages along with the "bend" and along with gravity was pulling everything down until the wheel was turned to the one side then everything would flop up. I was able to watch this flopping with a helper turning the steering wheel back and forth about 6 inches at a time with the van stationary. I've had a black rubber bungie cord keeping a very slight tension to hold things in a neutral middle ground position for many years and I never detect the flopping while driving.

 

[nubiecanobie]

Re: toe-in adj sleeve won't budge

What kind of forces are we talking about on the tie rods? They are not really load bearing parts IMO. All they do is turn the wheels and I am surprised to hear they are weakened when bent. They are about 1" diameter! Do you think they will bend more during normal use (i.e. not towed by it)? I find that hard to belief.

Here are pics of both tie rods. I think the passenger side one is actually called the drag link, which is not bent very much, compared to the driver's side.

http://photos.thedieselstop.com/showphoto.php?photo=29725&papass=&sort=1&thecat=500
http://photos.thedieselstop.com/showphoto.php?photo=29726

 

[Mr_Roboto]

Re: toe-in adj sleeve won't budge

Nubie, if they were not load bearing, they wouldn't be 1" in diameter!!

Not only do they have to be able to turn the wheels, but they have to be able to take shock loads such as hitting potholes and curbs etc.

 

[MikeL46]

Re: toe-in adj sleeve won't budge

[ QUOTE ]
What kind of forces are we talking about on the tie rods? They are not really load bearing parts IMO. All they do is turn the wheels and I am surprised to hear they are weakened when bent. They are about 1" diameter! Do you think they will bend more during normal use (i.e. not towed by it)? I find that hard to belief.

[/ QUOTE ]

It can be alot of force - ever hit something while turning and had the wheel try to jerk out of your hands - in the hundreds if not thousands of pounds of force. More than I would want to put through a bar that is already bent.

Straighten the bar and continue. If the bar is straight, it will take an amazing amount of force. If it is bent, it will bend more.

Mike