Hey everyone. I have been reading this site for some time now but just got registered tonight. Has anyone tried the 4 line output on the Stealth dual HPOP. I am having mine installed now and just wondering what to expect. It has been very difficult to get these extra 2 lines to fit in this small space with my regulated return lines already there, and I hope it will be worth the effort.
4 line output on Stealth dual HPOP
1 - 20 of 36 Posts
[ QUOTE ]
Hey everyone. I have been reading this site for some time now but just got registered tonight. Has anyone tried the 4 line output on the Stealth dual HPOP. I am having mine installed now and just wondering what to expect. It has been very difficult to get these extra 2 lines to fit in this small space with my regulated return lines already there, and I hope it will be worth the effort.
[/ QUOTE ]
IT DOES NOTHING.
Simply put oil is coming out of a common manifold in each pump...if the balance tube is in place...and is done correctly 4 lines is not needed, and will make ABSOLUTLEY no difference in power out put....just money out of you pocket book.
Hey everyone. I have been reading this site for some time now but just got registered tonight. Has anyone tried the 4 line output on the Stealth dual HPOP. I am having mine installed now and just wondering what to expect. It has been very difficult to get these extra 2 lines to fit in this small space with my regulated return lines already there, and I hope it will be worth the effort.
[/ QUOTE ]
IT DOES NOTHING.
Simply put oil is coming out of a common manifold in each pump...if the balance tube is in place...and is done correctly 4 lines is not needed, and will make ABSOLUTLEY no difference in power out put....just money out of you pocket book.
Joined
·
2,226 Posts
I don't know wacker? I like lots of extra fittings and lines on my truck so I can have more to worry about /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Joined
·
121 Posts
I currently have two lines on my truck with no problems. But that being said I am thinking about going to 4 lines with the checks installed. Without looking up the post I know you stated not too long ago that you had a thoery about how the pumps wear out, something about HPO going into one pump from the other, well, with four lines, and checks, the oil can't do that so easily......... I agree you are going to a common manifold, but flowrate is the highest priority with this system. I feel that anything to increase the instantaneous flow rate and decrease the pressure drop at any given point in the system has to have a positive influence. I haven't run the numbers on the fittings in the lines but am am curious as to what the pressure drop accross the fittings might be at the flow rates I would like.
That all being said I am a firm believer that if the oil side of the injector was set up properly and the control for that was there, then any of the two stock pump systems are too small for what I want to do.
Anyway, time will tell if I am right or not. I am building my truck, my way...... time to put up or shut up. To paraphrase a saying I saw in Lott's sig a long time ago "They might not beleive what you say, but they will always beleive what you do."
That all being said I am a firm believer that if the oil side of the injector was set up properly and the control for that was there, then any of the two stock pump systems are too small for what I want to do.
Anyway, time will tell if I am right or not. I am building my truck, my way...... time to put up or shut up. To paraphrase a saying I saw in Lott's sig a long time ago "They might not beleive what you say, but they will always beleive what you do."
The biggest issue is the internals of the pumps.....
THe size of the orifices is what makes 4 lines unecessary......
There is this big misunderstanding tha MORE OIL IS BETTER..........LOL thats laughable.....if you have 3000 psi+ in the rails....you havfe 3000+ psi in the rails......
Dont matter if you feed it with 1 1/4 line or a 5 inch line 5000psi is 5000 psi.....as long as it is holding.........well it is holding.
JMO
THe size of the orifices is what makes 4 lines unecessary......
There is this big misunderstanding tha MORE OIL IS BETTER..........LOL thats laughable.....if you have 3000 psi+ in the rails....you havfe 3000+ psi in the rails......
Dont matter if you feed it with 1 1/4 line or a 5 inch line 5000psi is 5000 psi.....as long as it is holding.........well it is holding.
JMO
Joined
·
121 Posts
That brings up a good point, what is the refresh rate of the ICP sensor? There is the moment when all the injectors are closed, creating pressure, then there is a moment that one injector opens, and the pressure should drop as oil rushes into the injector hopefully at the same rate that the pumps are putting it out, but at a lower pressure due to pressure drops in the system. Then we have a moment where alll the injectors are closed again, allowing the pressure to rise again. Hopefully while all of this is going on the time between injections is greater than the time during the injections. The number of ICP pressure that we see should be some sort of average of all of this. What really matters is the instaneous pressure and flow of the oil. And like I said I haven't run the numbers on the pressure drop at flow of the oil fittings, you very well could be right.
You will see nice gains from 4 lines instead of two, we have done the testing, our customers have done it and it does make a big differance. We have monitored both the "in pump" pressure and rail pressure and watched as the pump pressure would spike to 3800psi while the rail pressure would never get past 3200, at 3800 the pump pop off will take over and stop building pressure. The Stealth competitor will make 3800 psi rail pressure due to the pop off being shimmed, what thier pump pressure is I dont know but it has to be high. If the stock pump has a pop off of 3800 then why do you need to shim it to get 3800 out of it? 4 lines on a stealth will net you what ever rail pressure is asked for up to the factory pop off, we do not shim the stock pumps at all.
[ QUOTE ]
You will see nice gains from 4 lines instead of two, we have done the testing, our customers have done it and it does make a big differance. We have monitored both the "in pump" pressure and rail pressure and watched as the pump pressure would spike to 3800psi while the rail pressure would never get past 3200, at 3800 the pump pop off will take over and stop building pressure. The Stealth competitor will make 3800 psi rail pressure due to the pop off being shimmed, what thier pump pressure is I dont know but it has to be high. If the stock pump has a pop off of 3800 then why do you need to shim it to get 3800 out of it? 4 lines on a stealth will net you what ever rail pressure is asked for up to the factory pop off, we do not shim the stock pumps at all.
[/ QUOTE ]
I guess there is 2 ways to skin a cat, from its head or from its a$$. Both get the job done.
You will see nice gains from 4 lines instead of two, we have done the testing, our customers have done it and it does make a big differance. We have monitored both the "in pump" pressure and rail pressure and watched as the pump pressure would spike to 3800psi while the rail pressure would never get past 3200, at 3800 the pump pop off will take over and stop building pressure. The Stealth competitor will make 3800 psi rail pressure due to the pop off being shimmed, what thier pump pressure is I dont know but it has to be high. If the stock pump has a pop off of 3800 then why do you need to shim it to get 3800 out of it? 4 lines on a stealth will net you what ever rail pressure is asked for up to the factory pop off, we do not shim the stock pumps at all.
[/ QUOTE ]
I guess there is 2 ways to skin a cat, from its head or from its a$$. Both get the job done.
Joined
·
5,316 Posts
[ QUOTE ]
You will see nice gains from 4 lines instead of two, we have done the testing, our customers have done it and it does make a big differance. We have monitored both the "in pump" pressure and rail pressure and watched as the pump pressure would spike to 3800psi while the rail pressure would never get past 3200, at 3800 the pump pop off will take over and stop building pressure. The Stealth competitor will make 3800 psi rail pressure due to the pop off being shimmed, what thier pump pressure is I dont know but it has to be high. If the stock pump has a pop off of 3800 then why do you need to shim it to get 3800 out of it? 4 lines on a stealth will net you what ever rail pressure is asked for up to the factory pop off, we do not shim the stock pumps at all.
[/ QUOTE ]Ryan, stock Ford Remans pop off at 3650. You might be able to squeeze 3700, but that's it. My suggestion to you is, cut apart a stock HPOP. After that's done tell me what you found. With that information you would know why Wackerjr is commenting on them the way is. I showed the cut away pump to several people including David Lott. I'm pretty sure he's convinced that two lines are enough.
You couldn't get rail pressure above 3200? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif
You will see nice gains from 4 lines instead of two, we have done the testing, our customers have done it and it does make a big differance. We have monitored both the "in pump" pressure and rail pressure and watched as the pump pressure would spike to 3800psi while the rail pressure would never get past 3200, at 3800 the pump pop off will take over and stop building pressure. The Stealth competitor will make 3800 psi rail pressure due to the pop off being shimmed, what thier pump pressure is I dont know but it has to be high. If the stock pump has a pop off of 3800 then why do you need to shim it to get 3800 out of it? 4 lines on a stealth will net you what ever rail pressure is asked for up to the factory pop off, we do not shim the stock pumps at all.
[/ QUOTE ]Ryan, stock Ford Remans pop off at 3650. You might be able to squeeze 3700, but that's it. My suggestion to you is, cut apart a stock HPOP. After that's done tell me what you found. With that information you would know why Wackerjr is commenting on them the way is. I showed the cut away pump to several people including David Lott. I'm pretty sure he's convinced that two lines are enough.
You couldn't get rail pressure above 3200? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif
Those 2 little holes (on stock HPOPs) w/ the screen things in them are awefully small to flow 2 HPOPs worth of oil. There seems to be a very short delay, but a delay never the less in pressure building in the rails w/ just 2 lines.
I now have 4 lines and 2 IPRs on my homemade Big Oil and in my (very) limited testing start up and response is much quicker. But my testing is VERY limited.
I'd be curious where Bean is picking up the other source for oil? Is he just splitting up the existing oil lines which does not really remove the restriction point or is he grabbing oil off of the balance tube to bypass the restrictive holes?
I now have 4 lines and 2 IPRs on my homemade Big Oil and in my (very) limited testing start up and response is much quicker. But my testing is VERY limited.
I'd be curious where Bean is picking up the other source for oil? Is he just splitting up the existing oil lines which does not really remove the restriction point or is he grabbing oil off of the balance tube to bypass the restrictive holes?
Chopped up an old stock HPOP to take the IPR section out and fed it directly from the gear pump oil output. Byron welded a bleed off to dump into the passenger side valve cover. Wired the 2nd IPR in series to the stock IPR as it's just a 12V on/ off thing. Had each line from this 2nd IPR/ gear pump go to each head as the gear pump puts out more volume than a stock HPOP and the IPRs are only reading pressure from the driver's side head. (which would have left the passenger side head w/ much higher oil pressure if not done correctly)
So the IPR attached to the Grainger pump has one oil line going to one head and another going to the other head. And the stock HPOP has one line to each head as well. It starts, idles, and revs, like a real hot rod but runs poorly due to other unrelated issues.
It's a lot of junk up there but it came out pretty nice I think. I've been meaning to add pics it's hard to get excited about the truck when I can't keep it running right for more than 100 miles at a time!
So the IPR attached to the Grainger pump has one oil line going to one head and another going to the other head. And the stock HPOP has one line to each head as well. It starts, idles, and revs, like a real hot rod but runs poorly due to other unrelated issues.
It's a lot of junk up there but it came out pretty nice I think. I've been meaning to add pics it's hard to get excited about the truck when I can't keep it running right for more than 100 miles at a time!
Just a question for all you guys trying this....
How do you take a Fluid that is compressed to a certain psi, and have a difference on one end of the system?
The ONLY thing in these sytems that controls pressure is the IPR, and it is First in the system.....SO
IF the ENTIRE system is persurized, and the IPR is first how can you have MORE pressure in the pump than the rails?
IT is more to me an IPR issue than anything....and hence the reason Jody is the guy I reccomend.....Adding a Second IPR is not doing anything but now instead of having one unit....you have 2...
Fluid can not have different pressures in a system, MAYBE if it was being compressed over a mile lenght.....but we are talking about no more than 15-18 inches.
Just MY Opinion
How do you take a Fluid that is compressed to a certain psi, and have a difference on one end of the system?
The ONLY thing in these sytems that controls pressure is the IPR, and it is First in the system.....SO
IF the ENTIRE system is persurized, and the IPR is first how can you have MORE pressure in the pump than the rails?
IT is more to me an IPR issue than anything....and hence the reason Jody is the guy I reccomend.....Adding a Second IPR is not doing anything but now instead of having one unit....you have 2...
Fluid can not have different pressures in a system, MAYBE if it was being compressed over a mile lenght.....but we are talking about no more than 15-18 inches.
Just MY Opinion
Joined
·
2,570 Posts
[ QUOTE ]
Just a question for all you guys trying this....
How do you take a Fluid that is compressed to a certain psi, and have a difference on one end of the system?
The ONLY thing in these sytems that controls pressure is the IPR, and it is First in the system.....SO
IF the ENTIRE system is persurized, and the IPR is first how can you have MORE pressure in the pump than the rails?
IT is more to me an IPR issue than anything....and hence the reason Jody is the guy I reccomend.....Adding a Second IPR is not doing anything but now instead of having one unit....you have 2...
Fluid can not have different pressures in a system, MAYBE if it was being compressed over a mile lenght.....but we are talking about no more than 15-18 inches.
Just MY Opinion
[/ QUOTE ]
You cannot compress a fluid, you can pressureize the line by pushing it witht he pump, but 500cc's of oil at STP is the same as 500cc of oil at 5500PSI.
This is what makes the system in theroy have little to no lag from pressure at the pump to pressure in the rail.
The one exception to this rule is if you push oil under high pressure through a small oriface which cannot support the volume. For example a firetruck pump feeding garden hose mated to a fire hose. If the injectors are using more oil than the pump's oriface can support then there may be some variation in pressures throughout the system.
Why did we eliminate the dead head in the fuel rails?
The main benefit of 2 pumps is volume, a byproduct of this is the ability to operate at a higher pressure.
If your injection system requires more oil than a single pump can provide, the pressures drop off and you get a second pump. OK now you're pumping 2x as much oil through relatively small passages (stock pumps/IPR)
This may or may not mean that the stock IPR is enough it may not, Just remember that the stock system was designed to flow exactly 1/2 the flow rate. Programming may fix this, but from one sized set of injectors to another oil usage differs considerably and programming should be adjusted accordingly. A second IPR can help acomodate for this but this should still be a consideration for PROPER operation.
Just a question for all you guys trying this....
How do you take a Fluid that is compressed to a certain psi, and have a difference on one end of the system?
The ONLY thing in these sytems that controls pressure is the IPR, and it is First in the system.....SO
IF the ENTIRE system is persurized, and the IPR is first how can you have MORE pressure in the pump than the rails?
IT is more to me an IPR issue than anything....and hence the reason Jody is the guy I reccomend.....Adding a Second IPR is not doing anything but now instead of having one unit....you have 2...
Fluid can not have different pressures in a system, MAYBE if it was being compressed over a mile lenght.....but we are talking about no more than 15-18 inches.
Just MY Opinion
[/ QUOTE ]
You cannot compress a fluid, you can pressureize the line by pushing it witht he pump, but 500cc's of oil at STP is the same as 500cc of oil at 5500PSI.
This is what makes the system in theroy have little to no lag from pressure at the pump to pressure in the rail.
The one exception to this rule is if you push oil under high pressure through a small oriface which cannot support the volume. For example a firetruck pump feeding garden hose mated to a fire hose. If the injectors are using more oil than the pump's oriface can support then there may be some variation in pressures throughout the system.
Why did we eliminate the dead head in the fuel rails?
The main benefit of 2 pumps is volume, a byproduct of this is the ability to operate at a higher pressure.
If your injection system requires more oil than a single pump can provide, the pressures drop off and you get a second pump. OK now you're pumping 2x as much oil through relatively small passages (stock pumps/IPR)
This may or may not mean that the stock IPR is enough it may not, Just remember that the stock system was designed to flow exactly 1/2 the flow rate. Programming may fix this, but from one sized set of injectors to another oil usage differs considerably and programming should be adjusted accordingly. A second IPR can help acomodate for this but this should still be a consideration for PROPER operation.
Joined
·
881 Posts
well stated. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif
Joined
·
406 Posts
Has anyone thought of adding an accumulator to help even the pressure out when the injectors open and close to prevent spiking and even out the head pressure?
Joined
·
406 Posts
Why
1 - 20 of 36 Posts
