The Diesel Stop banner
1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
My 97 F-350 won' start. It barely started a couple times then I left for a week to go hunting. When I returned, my wife informed me it wouldn't start at all. :sick:

I knew my batteries were weak since believe it or not they were the original December 1997 Motorcraft batteries.

I don't have access to a scanner. So far I have done the following with no positive results:

1. Replaced CPS
2. Two new AGM 930 CCA batteries fully charged
3. Checked fuel filter and filter bowl is full
4. Have more than half tank of fuel
5. Fresh oil change, w/ Delo 15w-40 and FL1995
6. Checked HPOP level (full to bottom of plug)
7. Checked Glow Plug Relay (fine)
8. Ran block heater for a couple hours prior to cranking
9. Checked fuses
10. Tried to start with ICP unplugged, ICP looks pristine (no oil)
11.Tried to start with EBT unplugged
12.Tried to start with EOT unplugged
13.Tried to start with EBP sensor unplugged
14.Checked electrical connection to IPR

Wait to Start light comes on, no Check Engine light, the tach bumps when cranking. Oil pressure gauge registers but takes a significant amount of cranking time before it jumps up. It makes me think I have a low pressure oil leak somewhere. Very small amount of white smoke from exhaust during cranking. Will occasionally bump like it wants to start, but never more than a quick blip. (Sure cranks fast with new batteries though.)

My thoughts are leading to a bad IPR, bad IDM, bad PCM, or HPOP. Seems like the reluctant starts prior to failure should be a clue.

What am I missing?!?

Thanks!

r7
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,925 Posts
What is the voltage drop across the GlowPlug relay when it is active? You could always try starting after jumping the relay's large terminal for 30 seconds or so. What's the fuel pressure when cranking? It should be a minimum of 25 psi. Cheers!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
GPR voltage stabilizes at about 11.6 V on the output side.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
8,138 Posts
Cold no start , most likely a poppet issue ( GPR problem is usually a butt load of smoke)

Get It on a scanner ....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
What scanner would you recommend if I were to buy one?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,592 Posts
AutoEnginuity with the Ford bundle, around $360 and runs on a laptop.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
8,138 Posts
You can check the poppets visually . Note the spill spouts on the injectors . They should all be evacuating oil at the same rate . This can also point to a loose injector solenoid .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
95 Posts
I have a 97 F250 and tried everything you have plus a lot more. It turned out to be the IDM and I should have checked it earlier as Patrick suggested. Remove it and shake it to see if you hear any water sloshing around.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
defeated for the moment...

I don't like admitting defeat, but my truck is heading to the shop today... I am going to have to consider getting an Auto Enginuity or similar scanner.

Thanks for the posts. I will update once I have the diagnosis from the diesel shop.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
783 Posts
What am I missing?!?
JMHO, but you're missing a reliable way to measure your high oil pressure - a mechanical gauge. I would not consider a scanner to be nearly as reliable as a gauge.

You also need a way to block off the high pressure oil at each head individually.

You also need a way to move the ICP over to the passenger side head.

Also, the `95 and `96 (and I assume the `97) HPOP has a pressure relief valve (on the pressure side). If that valve has a piece of trash stuck in it, you may never build start pressure.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
8,138 Posts
JMHO, but you're missing a reliable way to measure your high oil pressure - a mechanical gauge. I would not consider a scanner to be nearly as reliable as a gauge.

You also need a way to block off the high pressure oil at each head individually.

You also need a way to move the ICP over to the passenger side head.

Also, the `95 and `96 (and I assume the `97) HPOP has a pressure relief valve (on the pressure side). If that valve has a piece of trash stuck in it, you may never build start pressure.
Really ? Again ? If you are using a gauge , you don't need to move the ICP anywhere. What a putz .You are wasting every ones time here. You need a better hobby . One that you know something about
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,374 Posts
What difference does it make which side the ICP is on? And since the PCM uses the ICP to report injection pressure, how is that not reliable?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,708 Posts
JMHO, but you're missing a reliable way to measure your high oil pressure - a mechanical gauge. I would not consider a scanner to be nearly as reliable as a gauge.

You also need a way to block off the high pressure oil at each head individually.

You also need a way to move the ICP over to the passenger side head.

Also, the `95 and `96 (and I assume the `97) HPOP has a pressure relief valve (on the pressure side). If that valve has a piece of trash stuck in it, you may never build start pressure.

Wow.....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
783 Posts
What difference does it make which side the ICP is on? And since the PCM uses the ICP to report injection pressure, how is that not reliable?
For a no start: If you suspect a high pressure oil leak (injector o-ring, poppet, etc), you can plug the right oil line and try to start the engine on the left bank only. If it starts, you know the problem is not the left head.

To test the right head, you have to reconnect the right head oil line, move the ICP, and block the left oil line.

I believe this is a Ford test procedure, and they made special tools specifically for this test. The test/tools might've been for the later year engines, I don't remember. Regardless, the principal still applies.


And since the PCM uses the ICP to report injection pressure, how is that not reliable?

I did not mean to imply that all scans are unreliable.

The op has a no start and needs to check his high oil pressure. Why not just deadhead the oil against a gauge, put battery voltage to the IPR, and crank the engine? If it builds 3600 psi or so, I'd say his HPOP is good, his PRV is good, and his IPR is likely good.

If it built low or no pressure, chances are we have a bad HPOP, IPR, or PRV.

Will a scanner tell you any of this?? I dunno.

In the op's case, the gauge would (to me) be much more reliable - and $360 less expensive.

And again, this is just my opinion - and that's what the op's original post requested :icon_wink:

---

Thanks for being civil.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
783 Posts
Heck...instead of moving the ICP, why not just use it (the ICP) to plug the left oil line? Then maybe you wouldn't have to jack with the wires. :icon_wink:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
783 Posts
I found that test pdf. The relevant portion is:



2.) NO START DIAGNOSTICS

IPR% goes high with no or low ICP. - A leak exists in the ICP system - P1211 or 1212 may be present.

Use test plugs tool # D94T 6600 A for 94 thru 98 MY Use test plugs tool # 303-627 & 303 - 628 (Kit #T99T-1000-E) for 99 MY and newer with quick connect connections.


CONDENSED FROM PC/ED

- Block off right bank (passenger side). - Attempt to start - Start indicates leak in right bank - Reconnect hose to right bank
- Remove right side valve cover. - Unplug injector connectors at both valve covers - Crank the engine - Observe spill spout of the injector and top of injector bore for oil leakage.
(No oil should be coming from the spill spouts or around the injector) - Replace injector if oil leaks from spill spout or o-rings if leak is from injector bore.

If no start - leak/loss may not be in right head, but ICP still low - Block off left bank and move ICP into adapter - Attempt to start - Start indicates leak in left bank
- Reconnect hose to left bank and install ICP into left head - Remove left side valve cover. - Unplug injector connectors at both valve covers - Crank the engine
- Observe spill spout of the injector and top of injector bore for oil leakage. (No oil should be coming from the spill spouts or around the injector)
- Replace injector if oil leaks from spill spout or o-rings if leak is from injector bore.

If no start / low ICP on both previous tests - Block off both high pressure lines - Crank engine - If pressure is below 1000 psi remove IPR valve and inspect o-rings. - If the IPR valve o-rings are damaged replace them with kit # F6TZ-9C977-AA and retest. - If o-rings are ok, then replace the IPR valve and retest.

Note: Do not replace the pump and IPR at the same time. If during any repair, the oil reservoir is allowed to drain it should be refilled before attempting to restart the vehicle.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
783 Posts
2.) NO START DIAGNOSTICS

IPR% goes high with no or low ICP. - A leak exists in the ICP system - P1211 or 1212 may be present.
Madpogue,

Getting back to reliability...note the red/highlighted portion above. I take that to mean there's a chance a P1211 or 1212 may not be present. That tells me a scan may or may not be accurate.

There's something inherently wrong with trusting all the electrical/electronic components that read/report high oil pressure, when any one of those components could be the cause of the no pressure situation - not to mention those components are 20 years old and have lived a hard life.

Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer gauges when gauges will do the job :lol:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
783 Posts
The op can do a down-n-dirty UVC leak test without a gauge or a scanner, and without moving the ICP.

Just unplug the ICP, block the heads one at a time and try to start it.

Five minutes and a $3 pipe fitting.

And if he wants/needs to proceed to more definitive testing, he'll need the $3 pipe fitting anyway.
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top