[RLTW1988]

Alright, so I've seen a lot of threads with issues around starting, and I've tried to use the advice posted in all of them, but my results have been less than stellar. Here's my story.

I've got an 89 F350 non turbo with 148K on it. Transmission was rebuilt before I bought it the truck, and once running she's sound as a pound. Since I bought the truck though, starting has been an issue. The previous owner said it needed a new GPC, so I replaced that and the GPs (the tip had broken off in the #2 cylinder, but I wasn't sure if it happened while driving or during the swap... so I paid to have the head pulled. There was a tiny piece of it sitting on top of the cylinder, smashed flat, no real damage to the block or piston) Now I get the proper cycles from the GPs. Still wasn't getting reliable starting at all, and I noticed that the starter RPMs seemed slow. Had both batteries tested, both 850 CCA and 12.6V. Pulled the starter and had it tested (all good), and ran all new battery cables, cleaned all contact/ground points and replaced hardware as necessary. Turned the key, WTS was normal but once it turned off turned to start and... nothing. So I tried jumping the posts on the relay on the fender and it cranked! Figured this meant the relay was bad, so I replaced it... and lost all power to the dash. So I put the old one back on, jumped it while opening the throttle manually and she came to life! I took her for a spin after letting it warm at idle, drove for 20 minutes and all was well. Parked and shut off, Let her cool off for a minute then turned the key and she started right up! That was last night. At about noon today, I went to start the truck, WTS, GPC, all sounded right and she cranked with good RPMs, but wouldn't start. After a couple tries with 20ish seconds of cranking, the starter RPMs nosedived. I figured the batteries were drained, and so I took them to get tested again (along with the alternator for peace of mind) and all was well. Reinstalled everything, along with a new voltage regulator when I got back from Advanced Auto and still had low starter RPM. The batteries are getting a charge tonight, but I got to know, am I fooling myself thinking that this is a power issue? Do I need to start looking at fuel supply and air intrusion? Fuel return lines were all replaced when the head got pulled, but I am at a loss on what I need to do to get this truck road ready. I've already learned so much from these forums, I really appreciate you experts.

 

[Shawn MacAnanny]

Have you done a compression check yet? Is it possible the rockers werent adjusted right when head was removed? Just run direct line from the mechanical pump to a diesel can to elminate air intrustion. The first thing i did when i purchased my truck was replaced every fuel line, both fuel tanks and made sure senders were ok, and i got rid of all of the push connect fittings and replaced them with double clamped 30R14 fuel line. I dont trust those push connect fittings at all with any age to them. Expecially under vacuum. If there air intrusion there should be air in the filter, have someone crank while you hold open schrader valve. Another member here even recently had the scrader valve go bad and caused a start then die issue.

 

[RLTW1988]

I meant to mention in my original post that I did check the shrader valve while cranking, and it gave me a hefty squirt of clean diesel. I have not done a compression test yet. What kind of numbers should I expect when I get a compression tester on it?

 

[Shawn MacAnanny]

i dont know the exact numbers, id think 350-450 but more so no more than i think 10-15% between all cylinders

 

[oldrebuiltdodge]

Have you done a compression check yet? Is it possible the rockers werent adjusted right when head was removed? Just run direct line from the mechanical pump to a diesel can to elminate air intrustion. The first thing i did when i purchased my truck was replaced every fuel line, both fuel tanks and made sure senders were ok, and i got rid of all of the push connect fittings and replaced them with double clamped 30R14 fuel line. I dont trust those push connect fittings at all with any age to them. Expecially under vacuum. If there air intrusion there should be air in the filter, have someone crank while you hold open schrader valve. Another member here even recently had the scrader valve go bad and caused a start then die issue.

The valves adjust with the lifters. There is no mechanical adjustment. If you have good fuel at the schrader valve, crack open some injector lines, and see what comes out there. I wouldn't rule out low compression, but if it ran well, then it isn't likely to have low compression. If the starter rpm is taking a nose dive after is starts spinning, you maybe need to check for worn out bushings causing it to drag a little, or worn out brushes. These things sometimes don't show up on a bench test. I've had parts stores swear up and down there was nothing wrong w/the starter, and then all was well after it was replaced. There could also be some internal engine problem causing the starter to drag, but I wouldn't tear into the engine until I proved here was a need. From your description, I would guess there is something binding in the starter when it gets warmed up under a load. Which isn't uncommon.

 

[Bill1013]

You can test a starter til the cows come home at those Auto stores. But when it's mounted on the engine and you go to start a cold engine, it's pulling 500 to 800 amps just to get the engine starting to roll over, if the front starter bushing is well worn, that amount of amps will suck the rotor down and scrub the fields resulting in slow RPM's and not fast enough to start the engine. I'd say he has a worn out starter. DB electric is a good place to get one.

 

[Shawn MacAnanny]

DB electric is where I just got my new starter from and I'm pretty positive there's a dead spot in it. Every 50 starts it'll take 20 clicks to get it to crank, brand new batteries, all 3 cables, fender relay, even ran a separate ground to the fender relay. I'm actually looking at getting a Mitsubishi starter from napa and sending this one back.

 

[LMJD]

When I was trying to source starter parts in order to overhaul mine I came to the conclusion DB has and uses low end foreign components. Since the brushes are spot welded in, I got mine overhauled locally with the best parts available for $104. Can't beat a Mitsubishi, my original lasted 19 years and over 200,000 miles and even then the only worn out component were the brushes. The Mitsu has huge bearings with the typical bronze bushing in the drive end housing. I pulled it and tore it down once when it was about 10 years old and it was like new inside.

 

[RLTW1988]

So it sounds like when I get back from the holidays,I should pull the starter and take it to a rebuild shop to have those components replaced (if worn, obviously). But before that I should crack the injector lines. Forgive my ignorance, but I'm going to ask anyway, that just means removing the lines from the top of the injectors correct? Should I do this one at a time or all at once? Am I looking for a dribble or a significant spray at each? If my issue is air working into the lines after sitting, but not while running, where should I look first? I'm traveling fur the holidays, but itching to get back and figure this out.I really wanted to bring the truck home for the holidays for the convenience (doing a lot if hunting) but just couldn't trust it to start every time. Thanks again fur ask the help on this awesome forum!

 

[Shawn MacAnanny]

Here are some comparison pics of the DB electric (SMT0018 - $84) vs Napa New Mitsubishi starter (4N-6265 - $189). They really look identical in terms of quality, the solenoid to starter wire for the Napa unit was actually bare and touching the body when i received it becuase the covering had slide down. Both start equally fast, we will see if my intermittent no start issue comes back

 

[RLTW1988]

Well my starter is a remanufactured model , I will start looking for quotes on a partial rebuild. If that isn't cheap, then brand new Mitsubishi starters aren't too expensive and have limited lifetime warrantee. I'll ask again, what am I looking for at the injector lines, and what exactly is meant by cracking the lines? How much firm should I expect? If there's already some thread I haven't seen detailing this I would love to see it. I'm new to diesel but really wasn't expecting this truck to be such a project, all though it is a labor of love.

 

[oldrebuiltdodge]

By cracking the line, it is meant to loosen the nut at the injector, or the IP your choice. You should see a small spray of fuel, and the engine should start to misfire on that cylinder. When you don't hear a change, or see any spray coming out you have found a problem.

 

[Bill1013]

No flame meant oldrebuiltdodge, just how it is.
You will actually NOT see a spray when cracking an injector line nut, just a small amount of dribble. IP's on an IDI only pump a Max of 90 CC in one shot unless they have been supped up to 130 CC. It can't spray because the fluid is not under pressure thru a small orifice.

 

[oldrebuiltdodge]

I only go by what I've seen, when the nut is slightly loosened up there is a SMALL spray. I say spray because it shoots UP about 1/4" before it falls back down. It doesn't drip like something that isn't under much pressure does.

 

[Shawn MacAnanny]

Here's a video from 2 months ago with a cold start around 40F with some mismatched glow plugs, the timer didnt stay on as long before clicking

I replaced the glow plugs with ZD9s (didnt test any i removed), and i made a new harness since the old one was falling apart. it was around 31F when i started the truck in the second video. I have new battery cables, starter, batteries, fuel lines, tanks, filter, and olives but an unknown mileage on the injection pump and injectors, They look very old.

I'll try to make a video the next time its cold in the morning with unplugging 1 and 2 glow plugs to show what affect it has on the glow plug timer.

 

[RLTW1988]

Alright, so I'm back from visiting my family for the holidays, so here's an update. I got back to the house yesterday, and just on the off chance that the old girl was self regenerating I hopped in and fired it up and though it was a bit rough she started within 10 seconds with a HUGE cloud of white smoke. Let her idle for 3 minutes by which time all smoke had cleared, and then took her for a 10 minute drive with no issues. Not too bad considering my issues, and that she's been sitting for a couple weeks at this point. So I wanted to take the truck to the Walmart tire shop today to deal with a slow leak... and no go. The Starter RPM sounded decently high, but there was just no grab or throaty rumble like there is when she's actually gonna start. So I used starter fluid. 2 very short spritzes, less than 1 second of actual spray. And she fired right up, with a huge cloud of white smoke. I have used the starter fluid with similar affect, infrequently, in the past. So I drove to Walmart and when I started backing into a space, the old girl just died. Tried to restart and had the same low starter speed as in the past. Had to leaver her overnight, to hopefully address the issue with the advice from you good people.

So here are my thoughts/questions:
1) I still think that the starter may be bad, as Bill said. This would explain at least part of my no start issues, specifically the starter getting hot and failing. My question is, can this happen from the truck running, not just starting? I don't know why else I wouldn't be able to restart with the low starter RPM.
2) Inspecting under the hood at Walmart I noticed some fresh fuel on the top of the fuel filter, at the hook up furthest to the passenger side. This hooks up to the fuel return lines. The fuel return lines and caps have been replaced at the same time i had the head pulled. It was very little fuel, but I remember reading that air can get in even where fuel can't get out, so I'm presuming I have air intrusion.
3) Where does the starter fluid play into this? Could it be overcoming air intrusion somehow? Or does it mean that air intrusion might not be an issue and fuel flow is?

I appreciate all the advice I've gotten already, and intend to tackle it all. I am going to be absolutely burried with work from the end of the week for the rest of the month (I'm active duty Army). When I get free, I just don't want to start throwing money and time at the wrong issues.

 

[Bill1013]

Don't know what you mean by "self regenerating".

The cloud of white smoke comes from a long crank (cylinders loaded up with fuel), ether lowers the flash point, hence the start.

The 1st long crank drained the batteries, a short drive did not recharge the batteries enough for a re-start at Walmart.
After you get it started again, check Alternator voltage output with a VOM, should be charging full @ 14.5 to 15 VDC.

Don't know why it died when backing in parking space.

Fuel on top of the filter can come from the fuel heater connection, there is an O'ring seal on the connection. Air intrusion is common there.
A plumbing shop might do the below fix for you.
The heater is useless, you can remove it and drill and tap the opening for a 1/2"NPT plug, only run the pipe tap in 3/4 of the way, test plug for tight fit. You can use Teflon pipe tape to seal it, the filter will catch any shreds. A pipe plug with an Allen head are sometimes purchased coated with a sealer.

 

[RLTW1988]

Bad joke with the "self regeneration," just saying I had no reason to think that the truck would start any better than usual.

The good news is, Big Red started with normal cranking speed (sort of) and the same little spritz of ether. Same big white cloud. Ran back to the house without issues, so at least I've got her parked where there's no risk of getting charged for a tow. Might get around to the starter this week, but only if I get some time off. I will definitely be replacing the o-ring on that fitting, and I'll look into the plumbing fix you brought up Bill. What exactly do you mean that the heater is useless? I did pull the alternator and had it tested at Advance Auto, and I misplaced the slip they printed me but I recall the numbers being close to that. It seems like that makes sense, because once everything was cooled off this morning (it got into the low 30's this morning) the truck started up so I feel like the low RPMs are somehow a symptom of heat in the starter or elsewhere. How else could the batteries have the juice to start this morning unless they and the alternator were good?

Looking at some old threads, the closest match seems to be a "Cummins fuel pump o-ring part # 151900" I couldn't find an exact match on rock auto, but I'll check out the catalog at Advance when I go buy a new Mitsubishi starter.

 

[RLTW1988]

Alright, so I bought a rebuilt Mitsubishi starter at Advance Auto, and when I pulled the old one I noticed there are significant differences. The one that came off the truck is much smaller and doesn't have a bell over the teeth of the motor. I figured bigger was better, but it seems like it's a couple millimeters too long and won't fit. Rock auto has both styles listed for my truck, and I've been looking through other threads and it seems guys with the same options (1989, automatic, 4wd, 7.3l idi) have been using the larger version. Am I missing something?

My question is, am I right that the rebuilt Mitsubishi is going to have more oomph than the one I pulled off? If so is there some sort of modification I should make? If not I guess I should just go return/exchange for one of the same style as the one I pulled off.

 

[RLTW1988]

Update: I managed to track down a rebuilt ultima starter that is the same style as the old one. I installed that yesterday and was able to get the truck started after hooking up jumper cables to my other car. I put the drip charger on overnight and this morning she fired up with no assistance and a super short crank. Took the truck into town to run some errands and see if any other issues showed up. The first few minutes she was running great, but then at low RPM it started running rough. I had to goose it to keep the truck running smoothly. I got parked in town and all though the idle was rough, the truck did idle for a minute before I shut it off. An hour later I got back to the truck and she wouldn't start. Power/starter RPM seemed low so I hooked the jumper cables up to my wife's car and was able to get started. I recalled what Bill suggested about the alternator not being up to par, and it made sense because this morning the truck started great with a full charge on the batteries. I went straight to O'Reilly and... the truck died backing into a space just like at walmart. I got a push into another space and changed out the alternator with another rebuilt Ultima. Jump start from the pack at O'Reilly and she fired right up again. I was on my way back to the house... and she died at a stop sign in the middle of town. Attempted to jump start from a buddy's car and couldn't get it to crank at a good speed. I pulled the batteries to bring home and charge overnight.

I've come to accept that I likely have air intrusion, fuel flow issues, or both. Am I off base in that assumption? If I'm going down this road, here are my questions:

1) What order of attack is best?
2)The fuel return lines and all but one of the return fittings are brand new but I think I'm going to take the suggestion of replacing them with clear lines and actual hose clamps so better detect air intrusion. I've seen two different sizes listed for these and it seems like it varies based on year. Do any of you know the correct one for the 89? I planned to just go get some at Lowes cut to length, any specific material best? I wanted to do the same for the lines from the fuel filter to the IP and anywhere else. What size have people used for that?
3) Bill, I'm going to do the fix you suggested for the fuel heater if it really isn't useful. Might as well eliminate it as a weak point.
4) There's rust on the lines from the IP to the injectors, so I know I've gotta change those. I found these listed and was going to just order it complete, does anyone have a better kit, or is there some advantage to having them cut to length and bent? That seems unnecessarily tedious. http://usdieselparts.com/c-800734-f...injection-lines-83-94-ford-6-9l-7-3l-idi.html
5) At what point do I need to start looking at the lift pump and the lines that go from there to the filter and elsewhere?
6) If I address all of this, am I missing something else? Should I start looking at the lines from the tanks?

As always all the advice I see on these forums is very useful. I appreciate you guys looking this over. My wife is more and more convinced that the PO pulled one over on me, maybe with all of your help I can prove her wrong!