[ERyser]

Has anyone used this on their 6.0L? It claims that it intercepts and reprograms the ECM's output, so no fingerprint is left on your vehicle's computer a unlike a downloader. This would keep the warranty in place.

Any advice would be great as I am a fairly new diesel owner.

 

[cmirabile]

[ QUOTE ]
Has anyone used this on their 6.0L? It claims that it intercepts and reprograms the ECM's output, so no fingerprint is left on your vehicle's computer a unlike a downloader. This would keep the warranty in place.

Any advice would be great as I am a fairly new diesel owner.

[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gifHaha... Yea. I have a hard time believing that it will not leave any fingerprints, especially a unit of that size. If its a chip, modules will record outside of limit occurances, such as speed limiter override. if its a tuner, you get power loss and other DTC's. Either one though can be cleared by draining the capaciators in the ECM and modules. My thought is to stick with brands like SCT or Edge. When you go outside of a regularly used brand, you can see problems. This doesn't only hold true with diesels and tuning, but anything. (Then again you see alot of problems with Edge)

 

[ERyser]

cmirabile...thanks for the feedback. Does that mean if I use an SCT like you have that that I can erase the ECM (if need be) before going in to see the dealer or is that still a crapshoot?

 

[spdiesel]

[ QUOTE ]
Haha... Yea. I have a hard time believing that it will not leave any fingerprints, especially a unit of that size. If its a chip, modules will record outside of limit occurances, such as speed limiter override. if its a tuner, you get power loss and other DTC's. Either one though can be cleared by draining the capaciators in the ECM and modules. My thought is to stick with brands like SCT or Edge. When you go outside of a regularly used brand, you can see problems. This doesn't only hold true with diesels and tuning, but anything. (Then again you see alot of problems with Edge)

[/ QUOTE ]

100% NOT true. It's as undetectable as the rest. In fact if you change the PCM tune that is detectable by the dealer even if you switch it back. This is nothing more than pure speculation on the part of the user above.

Also curious, what is meant by "a unit of that size"??? What does size have to do with any of this? or is this more speculation.

 

[ERyser]

spdiesel

What do you mean by it's as undetectable as the rest? I really am interested in the module but honestly have not gotten a lot of info on details as to the features on it. Can I truly use it without it having a fingerprint? It sounds like you are saying yes but I can't determine if there is a catch.

Thanks.

 

[spdiesel]

There's no catch. I think the user above is just engaging in 'wild speculation'. Still trying to make sense of a few of the points he has raised in fact...it would be most helpful if the user would explain where some of this hypothesis comes from.

To answer a few of the points raised above.

1. The unit IS undetectable. The only exception being if an electronic component were to fail and cause something to malfunction. This rule applies to ANY electronics, not just ours. I almost left the part about module malfunction out, but I lay it out like it is. If ANYONES electronics fail, there is the possibility it would leave a fingerprint. I haven't seen a failed unit back yet. Our Test Unit #1 has been running a test program non-stop for going on 8 months now here on my desk.

2. Size???...still don't know what size has to do with it. We could have made it larger and saved some money, but in this case building it with high quality micro-sized Surface-Mount components saves space and allows us to pack a lot of features onto an admittedly small board. We are quite proud of the number of components we were able to put on that board. It's tightly packed. The small size is 100% deliberate. I will gladly debate how size of the unit and the components in it, in this case is a clear advantage.

3. Power Loss/Capacitors/etc... it sounds to me like the user is again speculating as to whats going on. You will pick up a solid 120HP/180 ft lbs on the ford Tune with Painless, which is milder than our tune we sell. I would highly recommend you try it. Painless has put a bulletproof guarantee behind the unit, and we stand behind it as well. I highly encourage you to ask us any questions you feel are left unanswered.

For those interested here is a link to Painless Performance's website containing info on their module.

http://www.painlessperformance.com/diesel.php

 

[joppajet]

SP,
I had one of your Stage I units on my old 7.3, liked it very much. I'm looking for something for my 2004 6.0 with the factory 2005 program and I like the looks and features of your new product. Friends of mine have used other products and are now having to get head gaskets replaced. I don't know if the other products were the cause or not. Have you had any problems with this? Thanks

 

[spdiesel]

We have not had head gaskets blowing. we actually put a lid on the power so we didn't cause undue stress. For those that want the wildest of the wild, you can have it but you must see us directly. The tune that painless is selling is right in the middle where they want it and we want it to be.

 

[KISS_Racing]

[ QUOTE ]
1. The unit IS undetectable. The only exception being if an electronic component were to fail and cause something to malfunction. This rule applies to ANY electronics, not just ours. I almost left the part about module malfunction out, but I lay it out like it is. If ANYONES electronics fail, there is the possibility it would leave a fingerprint. I haven't seen a failed unit back yet. Our Test Unit #1 has been running a test program non-stop for going on 8 months now here on my desk.



[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to know more about this... So your saying that Ford can't look at a PCM and tell that A/F has been modified and boost levels have exceeded stock levels? Your also saying Ford can't tell that Injection timing and pulse length had been modified? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif

My understanding on anyones tuner, module or thingy whatchamacallit is you play, you pay... I'm impressed with your guarantees...

When my 6.0 comes in I know who to call...

 

[QuadBoenker]

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to know more about this... So your saying that Ford can't look at a PCM and tell that A/F has been modified and boost levels have exceeded stock levels? Your also saying Ford can't tell that Injection timing and pulse length had been modified? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif

My understanding on anyones tuner, module or thingy whatchamacallit is you play, you pay... I'm impressed with your guarantees...

When my 6.0 comes in I know who to call...

[/ QUOTE ]

If a module is done correctly then the ECM never knows what has been modified. It knows what the module told it and if it made adjustments to compensate then it knows what it did, other than that it is clueless. Ford will never know the injection timing, stretch, or pressure has been modified if it is done correctly.

If you alter the ECM then things can be stored.

Quad

 

[cmirabile]

[ QUOTE ]
1. The unit IS undetectable. The only exception being if an electronic component were to fail and cause something to malfunction. This rule applies to ANY electronics, not just ours. I almost left the part about module malfunction out, but I lay it out like it is. If ANYONES electronics fail, there is the possibility it would leave a fingerprint. I haven't seen a failed unit back yet. Our Test Unit #1 has been running a test program non-stop for going on 8 months now here on my desk.

2. Size???...still don't know what size has to do with it. We could have made it larger and saved some money, but in this case building it with high quality micro-sized Surface-Mount components saves space and allows us to pack a lot of features onto an admittedly small board. We are quite proud of the number of components we were able to put on that board. It's tightly packed. The small size is 100% deliberate. I will gladly debate how size of the unit and the components in it, in this case is a clear advantage.

3. Power Loss/Capacitors/etc... it sounds to me like the user is again speculating as to whats going on. You will pick up a solid 120HP/180 ft lbs on the ford Tune with Painless, which is milder than our tune we sell. I would highly recommend you try it. Painless has put a bulletproof guarantee behind the unit, and we stand behind it as well. I highly encourage you to ask us any questions you feel are left unanswered.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, you need to take a step back here. I will address these three, but the above was my opinion on the unit, which I am free to express. If you, as the person who is going to collect the money when someone buys one, disagree with my comments about the product then so be it.

The ability to be detected:
Techs and other guru's on this board have stated over and over that it is indeed possible to detect a tuner and chip, either electronically or viewing tangible items, like a melted piston. This would include the "Painless" unit, being a product that "Intercepts and reprograms the output".

There is a way to clear the electronic evidence, as stated above, by disconnecting the batteries. You can either wait 10 minutes after that, or touch the terminals together for a few seconds and then re-connect. Touching the terminals together instantly discharges all capacitors connected directly to vehicle power, including the ECM and modules. Doing this would also clear stored values like over boost, and over speed, which are not always stored solely in the ECM.

Size:

Again, my opinion at work here. Size is probably not much of an issue, I mean, look at computers and how much they downsized. But a unit that is the size of your palm to control (sorry "intercept and reprogram") your 40-50k truck isn't very appealing. At least in my opinion. When you bunch stuff together like that, you are more prone to MALFUNCTIONS or other problems. Also, if you are worried about not saving money by using expensive parts, why such a cheap display? Surely you could add another 3-4 inches to the unit and make it an LCD screen, to make it a little more user friendly.

Power Loss

What I said about power loss had NOTHING to do with the performance of the vehicle. It has EVERYTHING to do with the electronics of the vehicle, which house the dealer’s first line of defense against people who attempt to add performance enhancing devices. I am sure you get plenty of performance power with this module.

I have a couple questions though.

If a problem does occur, like a blown head gasket, do you warrant the repairs? Probably not, and neither does SCT or EDGE, because then everyone would be out of business.

What is in this “Bullet Proof” Guarantee? How does the unit work if it’s not a downloader, yet claims to be a programmer? (I found this on the web page you listed)

Is it by tricking the computer, or “intercept[ing] and reprogram[ming] the ECM's output”?

Does this unit control the transmission as well, or was that left out of the small unit?

How long has painless been in the diesel world? You know, to see their future problems?

I wasn’t trying to start an argument here. It is clear that you are the seller of this product, and being in that position, you are required to defend its effectiveness and safety. I would like to note however, that since you have only been testing for 8 months according to your post, you are the one speculating on the saftey of the unit.

Respectfully,
Cmirabile

 

[spdiesel]

It's obvious to me that you are merely speculating. You are questioning our engineering yet have no experience either with the product or the design itself. Big or small components fail.

Tell me do you have experience directly with this product that would lead you to believe that a smaller package would fail sooner? I can assure you (or anyone else for that matter)that this unit is every bit as robust as a non surface mount unit.

And to wit, 8 months on a test bench is more like 5 years in your truck. unless that is you run your truck 24/7...That is somewhere on the order of 5700 Power On Hours as equipment under test. And to carry it further that is our production test unit number #1, not counting prototypes, betas, etc. The design is fully vetted and thought through. We have countless hours of R&D in this design, plus carried forward what was learned from previous product(s).

It truly makes me wonder if there are other motives. I can assure you none of your speculatives are true in any sense of the word.

Tell me at $500 who is offering built in display at all? LCD...sure we can do that. Our research told us that it was better to hold the price down and give a built in display what was robust. The unit is designed with everyday truck owners in mind. If you are a contractor or in a trade, do you really want an 800 to 1000 dollar display unit getting beat up. We CAN service this if there was a mishap in the truck (coffee, tea, soda,,whatever). You can tuck this away like every other non-integrated unit on the market or leave it on the dash.
As for the comment on user-friendly, there are three buttons, how can you get more user friendly. This isn't meant to be full-featured display. It can control or be controlled by our add-on display.

Why would someone need to clear the ECU if nothing is there to begin with that would cause a problem?

I find it ultra-curious that you are already bashing painless before even experiencing their unit. Again, it makes me go HMMM.... I have seen this before.

So in closing I do believe I answered your questions.

Regards,

Sean Kammer, President- SP Performance, LLC

 

[cmirabile]

Yes. Purely speculation /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif.

I see you edited your post to include the questions you didn't answer the first time around. Thanks for answering them, except for two:

Is it by tricking the computer, or “intercept[ing] and reprogram[ming] the ECM's output”?

Does this unit control the transmission as well, or was that left out of the small unit?

As for the ECM Clearing, People typically try to leave no trace whasoever. What I am saying is that it impossible to leave NO trace without clearing using the battery disconnect method.

Bashing? Hardly.

 

[spdiesel]

[ QUOTE ]
What is in this “Bullet Proof” Guarantee? How does the unit work if it’s not a downloader, yet claims to be a programmer? (I found this on the web page you listed)

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sure that if you called them they would tell you this guarantee is built around satisfaction with the unit as well as reliability. I will not speak for them, as that is for Painless to speak to. I would recommend you contact them for those details.

 

[spdiesel]

Is it by tricking the computer, or “intercept[ing] and reprogram[ming] the ECM's output”? same thing. We are remapping it through programming in our box.

Does this unit control the transmission as well, or was that left out of the small unit?

Again, you have a size fixation. Bigger does not equal better. The output of the box is within the adaptive learning of the transmission. Shifting is fine.

As for the ECM Clearing, People typically try to leave no trace whasoever. What I am saying is that it impossible to leave NO trace without clearing using the battery disconnect method.

OK...this is just plain false. Unless there is a malfunction on the module, you should not need to do this with any box.

 

[KISS_Racing]

[ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to know more about this... So your saying that Ford can't look at a PCM and tell that A/F has been modified and boost levels have exceeded stock levels? Your also saying Ford can't tell that Injection timing and pulse length had been modified? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif

My understanding on anyones tuner, module or thingy whatchamacallit is you play, you pay... I'm impressed with your guarantees...

When my 6.0 comes in I know who to call...

[/ QUOTE ]

If a module is done correctly then the ECM never knows what has been modified. It knows what the module told it and if it made adjustments to compensate then it knows what it did, other than that it is clueless. Ford will never know the injection timing, stretch, or pressure has been modified if it is done correctly.

If you alter the ECM then things can be stored.

Quad

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting... I spoke to a friend of mine who used to doing testing here in San Antonio for a Research Company. This is the same company that did the testing on the tiles for the Space Shuttle. I asked him point blank if Ford had a way of determining if a "power adder" of any sort had been put on one of our trucks? His response was long and drawn out, but to some it up he said "Ford can not tell you what type of adder has been put on a truck, but based on a linear power curve they can tell you within a few horse power how much over stock the truck has run." He also stated "These numbers are based on years of research in a lab setting as well as on the road driving. These baselines were created not as a means to look for people who would purposely alter tuning, Hp or Torque, but so Ford would have more accurate info on trucks performance." One last thing he said, "Ford is not in a habit of looking for alterations with cars, trucks or SUV's."

 

[QuadBoenker]

[ QUOTE ]


Interesting... I spoke to a friend of mine who used to doing testing here in San Antonio for a Research Company. This is the same company that did the testing on the tiles for the Space Shuttle. I asked him point blank if Ford had a way of determining if a "power adder" of any sort had been put on one of our trucks? His response was long and drawn out, but to some it up he said "Ford can not tell you what type of adder has been put on a truck, but based on a linear power curve they can tell you within a few horse power how much over stock the truck has run." He also stated "These numbers are based on years of research in a lab setting as well as on the road driving. These baselines were created not as a means to look for people who would purposely alter tuning, Hp or Torque, but so Ford would have more accurate info on trucks performance." One last thing he said, "Ford is not in a habit of looking for alterations with cars, trucks or SUV's."

[/ QUOTE ]

He is talking about trying to figure given horsepower and torque used based on certain drivetrain parameters. I guess if you knew that the truck had never hauled anything or done anything out of the ordinary then there could be a hypothesis that more power had been added to the truck at some point and some time.

Now the problem is that a truck that tows all the time and a truck that runs empty all the time will look like 2 different vehicles using the methods your friend is probably trying to use. In a lab you may be able to do this, but it seems there are too many variables to ever convict someone.

Now the ECM will still never know that you changed the injection events either by pressure, duration or timing. The ECM will also not record any boost conditions outside the normal operating parameters.

In the long run more people probably get busted taking their truck to the dealership with 5,000 miles on the odometer with bald rear tires and a smoked out bumper. Even if the ECM stores nothing you are going to have your warranty denied.