[Phil G.]

This has been on going for a couple of summers now. When things get hot, pulling away from a stop or accelerating in OD, the truck smokes and feels quite lazy and the boost seems to lag what my foot is requesting. The heavier the load the worse it gets and the hotter the outside temp the worse. It basically goes away in the winter. It will do it when bobtailing after a long run on the freeway then come to a stop sign on an off ramp and start to pull away.

EBP, IPR & ICP have all been replaced recently as has the FICM and 8 injectors. I just replaced the hose running to the MAP sensor before the last trip and removed the EBP to recheck and clean, it was in good shape. The EGR was replaced last summer but didn't fix it, it has been cleaned several times since. The truck runs like it did when it was brand new until this issue happens then it's fine again once the truck cools down.

Once back in April, in the mid west I was pulling into a 40 mph headwind mostly uphill and working the tail off the truck, the boost would wail up to the 30 psi mark, I would lift, it would race down to the bottom then get stuck at about 5 PSI and I would have trouble picking up speed, the truck would drop a gear, RPM up then it would start working fine again.

I've had the turbo off twice and taken it to a diesel shop, they've opened it up, lubricated it then handed it back telling me everything looks good.

I also data logged yesterday but it was just while I was rolling along without a smoking issue. I have attached a couple files. I used the CTS2, not as thorough as my AE but much easier to do spur of the moment. Yesterday, I was on secondary 2 lane roads later in the day which I seldom drive on and pulling away from stop lights with trailer, it smoked heavily until it got rolling then nice and clean.

I even passed the snap test for emissions testing a few days ago.

I have a 2 hour run tomorrow morning with a trailer on but it will be fairly cool and and mostly 4 lane high speed but I will data log again if it starts smoking.

I'm ready to order a brand new OEM turbo (Garrett has new ones now...brand new) but I would like to know if there is anything else I can check first like maybe the VGT solenoid, is there a test for it?

Any ideas please before I just throw a turbo at it?

Thanks!

 

[Phil G.]

Today I made a 2hr run with the trailer between 7-9 am this morning, temps outside in the high 60's-low 70's. The truck worked fine.

I returned bobtail from about 11 am -1 pm, temps were in the mid 70's, a cool day. I ran just under 70 mph home until the last half hour then it was varying speeds on a 2 lane. I data logged on the 2 lane a couple of times and did see some black smoke on acceleration, especially from a deal stop.

I would really appreciate it if someone "in the know" at troubleshooting this stuff could take a look at the one log I posted here.

If you look at about row 5200 and later, you can see where the truck was stopped (column F-speed) then you can see where I tipped in the throttle (column I) from row 5258 on and but the MAP and boost did not seem to follow as I would have expected. Look at the boost jump suddenly at 5287-5288 yet the engine load, throttle position etc are constant. Does it not work like I'm thinking or is there an maybe an issue with MAP signal or turbo itself????

If MAP sensors are going bad, do they usually act up more as the ambient temp goes up and can they cause the boost to "hang"

Any help steering me in the right direction to troubleshoot this would be appreciated.

 

[TurboThrill]

I'm not an expert, but I'll throw in my 2 cents worth. From what you describe, it seems like your turbo isn't actuating the vanes the way it should and that seems to happen after you heat it up and load it very heavily. Have you cleaned the turbo recently or ever? Maybe the vane actuator electronics are intermittent or broken. Just some food for thought.

Good luck!

 

[Phil G.]

Thanks for the reply, Turbo.

That's exactly what seems to be happening and it has been on going for the last two summers but intermittent and not enough to make me step into it right away but now I've had a couple of incidents where I was towing and the boost froze at about 5 psi for a few seconds and I had to get the truck to downshift to fix it.

I've had the turbo inspected/cleaned twice and "nothing wrong with it" but it is an old used turbo. I just want this fixed so I'm going to take a big swing at it. I've ordered a Garret OEM brand new, not reman (no core charge) turbo from Amazon. About 780 bucks and it comes with a brand new actuator. Even if it turns out to not fix it and it's the MAP sensor or something, I don't care. If I have issues on the road with the old turbo finally failing and I have to have a dealer fix it, it will be a heck of a lot more than $1000 bucks plus the grief.

I recently had a clamp actually come apart on the hot side of the turbo and the boot blow off with trailer in tow on the tollway just north of Chicago around Rockford and right near a pullout so it was a quick fix with a gear clamp to get me to the Ford dealer to pick up a new clamp. If that had happened a 1/2 hour earlier in Chicago morning traffic..... a whole different story.

 

[TurboThrill]

Hey Phil,

Sounds like a step in the right direction! Hope the new turbo solves the issues...

 

[ford_doctor]

I cant see a turbocharger being directly affected by ambient temperature. Not at all. I would cancel your order for the moment until you can prove you actually need a turbo. I am an expert however the data you are collecting is for the most part, garbage and will not help identify the cause of your performance problems. Two main areas that will cause low boost numbers is the air management system and fuel delivery. We can get a better look at the air management system by looking at the following parameters (to start with) from a dead stop with a FULL THROTTLE acceleration or when the condition is present:

• Accelerator Pedal
• Barometric Pressure
• EGR Valve - Duty Cycle
• EGR Valve position - volts
• Exhaust Back Pressure
• IAT-1
• IAT-2
• Manifold Absolute Pressure
• RPM
• VGT Duty Cycle

 

[Phil G.]

Thank you, ford_doctor for the help, very much appreciated.

The turbo will be here today, so I'll install it. That will also eliminate the VGT solenoid out of the equation because it comes with one. I have no idea how old the installed turbo or the VGT solenoid is, it came off my parts engine and was installed about 100,000 miles ago. I also have a new MAP sensor coming today as well to install, the old one will go in the utility box with the other used parts I carry. It as replaced under warranty about 7 years ago, it has a ton of miles on it.

The EBP sensor & EGR valve are fairly new so I would want to see diagnostics evidence that they need replacing again before I would swap them out.

Once I get the parts installed and have a chance to drive it, I will then report back that either it's fixed or offer up the requested data and we can go from there, if your willing to help.

Thank you!


Just a note on what probably appears to be wasting money on parts that may be functioning:

I know in most instances it doesn't make sense throwing parts at something without proper diagnostics and I have had this debate in my head numerous times. I keep coming back to I either spend the money at a shop when the part finally fails and hope the tech has 6.0L experience and is honest or I try to take care of it myself in advance. When I'm travelling in the states (which is about 50% of my miles), $120 US per hour (that's $160 cdn to me) adds up really fast, especially if you are paying that to a parts changer that doesn't know what he's doing. I don't have a chance to research for a good shop versus a bad one when problems suddenly strike.

Plus your not paying $800 for a brand new turbo, my $800 turbo job is a $3000 repair at most dealers (I'm not knocking what they charge, I understand they have a business to run.

There's also the time element. Most shops I have stopped at for something minor are booked 2-3 days or more out on there schedule... so I would have to sit in a hotel room for 2 or 3 days waiting at $150/day for room and food plus additional time away from home.

So I believe I am in a unique situation where I probably should be driving a new truck for what I am doing, but I don't want one for various reasons. So I don't mind treating the maintenance program on mine like a "critical fleet maintenance' program where aged parts that have known wear issues and life cycles get changed even though they appear to be functioning.

I shouldn't say this, I'll jinx myself, but I have put over 100,00 fairly hard working miles on this truck since I threw the engine back in it 2 years ago and I've been on a hook only once for a FICM (which I had just replaced proactively from the original FICM that was still working). In the total life of the truck, (11 years and 750,000+KM), it has been on a hook only 2 other times prior to the FICM and that has years ago under warranty. It should have been only once but thanks to the first dealer that blamed the no-start on the trailer I was towing (***?), he got it started and sent me down the road only to have the IPR completely fail days later and on the hook again.

So all in all, this truck has served me well, I would buy another 6.0L in a heartbeat for what I am using it for.

My year end is the end of this month. Once the books are up to date, I'll have to take a look at the operational expenses of the truck and see it this approach is still working or not.....

 

[jms80]

Did you ever get to the bottom of this? It sounds very similar to what I have going on with my truck. It mostly works fine, but at low rpm when I give it gas, it rolls coal. I have to drive like an old lady to keep it from smoking. If it downshifts, the smoke clears up, and it only seems to happen after getting the EOT up. I've cleaned the turbo and checked all the normal sensors. I took it to a well known shop and they just said the EGR valve was bad. Replacing that didn't seem to make any difference. I can hear the exhaust note change when it exercises the VGT while idling, but maybe it is sticky? The VGT solenoid resistance is in spec.

 

[bismic]

You need a good scan tool that is thorough at pulling codes.

Highly recommend ForScan Lite on a smartphone with the appropriate OBDII adapter for the brand of phone you have.

 

[jms80]

Hi bismic, I actually posted about this issue last year on a different forum, and you were offered a bunch of helpful suggestions there. I primarily use my truck to haul a camper, so it doesn't get used much in the winter. Now it's back in my mind again. Here's a quick recap:

- I get no codes when checked by myself or the mechanic. When I talk about smoke in the exhaust, it is always black. It seems to smoke most when the RPMs are around 1500 or less. When it shifts down under acceleration, it mostly clears up. Sometimes I will see a continuous stream of mild smoke when driving steady but under load. It also seems somewhat intermittent, but I'm not sure if that's just due to varied driving conditions. Maybe I just look sometimes when it's under load and sometimes when it's not. It does seem worse when the EOT is over ~150.

- Last year I found a tear in the CAC boot at the turbo. I replaced it and the smoking seemed to get much better. If I really baby it, it still smokes but not a lot. It can still blow a ton of smoke, depending on how much gas I give it.

- I checked for exhaust leaks by connecting a shop vac to the tailpipe and spraying leak detector on everything I could find and reach. I found both exhaust headers had small leaks at the head, and the y/turbo connection was slightly leaking. This is the main reason I took the truck to the mechanic, expecting to get gaskets put on the headers. He looked at it, and thought there was no way that those leaks were bad enough to cause any problems and would be a waste of money to fix. He said the EGR valve voltages didn't look right, so he swapped mine with a loaner since new OEM valves are 2 months out. At the same time he gave me an 'atlas 60' FICM tune. That made the truck way more responsive, but didn't seem to affect the smoking very much to me. When I got home I found the valve he put it was not tight and there was soot all around it. I tightened it up and everything seems pretty much the same.

• Last year I noticed my fuel pressure was close to 45 psi, and would sometimes drop to around 40 under load. I did the "blue spring mod", which didn't help. This spring I replaced the pump in the HFCM and it's now steady at about 60.
• I have a bluetooth ODBII reader and have used ForScan Lite. I used it to turn off individual injectors and heard an exhaust note change for each one.

- Last year, I replaced some of the sensors hoping that one might just be giving inconsistent numbers, even though everything seemed to look good in ForScan and on the Edge. I replaced the EBP and MAP sensor and hose even though they both seemed to be fine. I replaced the IAT sensor since the connector was bent over and looked semi broken. The EBP tube is clean. I also replaced the air filter and fuel filters.

- I have an Edge CTS2 to monitor sensors while driving. Baro looks correct, MAP / EBP values always look reasonable to me. FICM voltages look good.

- I took the turbo off and cleaned the VGT vanes. They seemed fine when I opened it up, though. If I sit with it idling and watching the VGT%, I can hear the exhaust note change.

- I have made a boost pressure tester by capping a 2" pvc pipe, tapping it for shop air, and connecting it to the turbo CAC boot. This is how I actually found the EGR valve was loose after getting back from the mechanic. It doesn't exactly just hold the air I give it, but the only place I can hear air escaping sounds like it is deep in the engine.

So, I'm not really sure what else to do at this point. It seems like it's just not getting enough air, but I don't see why. Maybe it is the EGR valve and both my original and the loaner are both good enough to not throw codes but bad enough to cause issues? Any suggestions are appreciated!

J

 

[bismic]

Wow - thanks for the recap.

I can't recall, are you tuned? Also, what year model engine?
Have you tried cleaning the MAF sensor (using MAF cleaner spray or electronics cleaner spray)?

 

[jms80]

Hah, I actually cleaned the MAF yesterday, but haven't had a chance to take the truck out yet.

This is a 2007 6.0. I never had a tune on it until I took it to the mechanic a few weeks ago, and he did a FICM tune and set the cts to the first step above the transmission only tune.

 

[bismic]

Let us know how it drives after the MAF cleaning.

Do you know if the EGR valve that was installed was OEM or aftermarket?

I can't recall - did you check all the temperature sensors after the engine has been off overnight? They should all be fairly close (IAT1, IAT2, EOT, ECT, TFT)

Also, at KOEO are MAP, Baro, and EBP all reading within say .5 psi of each other?

 

[jms80]

After cleaning the MAF, everything is the same. The mechanic said it was an OEM loaner ERG valve, but I don't know how to confirm that.

KOEO pressures look good. I'm at about 4500 ft:
MAP: 12.5 PSI
BARO: 12.3 PSI
EBP: -0.1 PSIG

IAT2, EOT, ECT are all ~80 degrees f (close to the ambient temp right now). TFT is 77. But, IAT is 98. It reads this way with both the new sensor and the previous one. So, that's pretty suspicious. Maybe the sensor pigtail has some extra resistance?

 

[jms80]

Ok, I'm slightly confused, but it seems that I actually replaced IAT2 (on top of intake manifold), and IAT is part of the MAF sensor. I unplugged the MAF and then it shown IAT at 58 degrees. After plugging it back in, it shows 92. Bad MAF sensor?

 

[bismic]

Was that 92 degree reading at the same time as the 80 degree readings on the other sensors?

If so, then yes, it is bad.,,,,,and you are correct IAT (or IAT1) is part of the MAF sensor on the engines that have a MAF sensor (some don't).

 

[jms80]

Ok, I'll replace the MAF sensor. The measurements above were all within ~30 minutes, and everything was stable. When I opened up ForScan to check these sensors, IAT2 was already there from last year. I don't recall ever looking at multiple air temps, so I probably never really looked at IAT before. I have sort of monitored the MAF measurement, and it seemed fine in the sense that it didn't seem erratic, and seemed to respond to RPM changes as expected from just eyeballing it. It's kind of hard to find exactly how the IAT measurement is used. It sounds like IAT2 is used more to check EGR function, so a faulty IAT2 could look like an EGR issue, but I'm not sure about IAT. Anyway, crossing my fingers that this is it!

 

[jms80]

Finally got the new MAF sensor installed. The IAT measurement makes sense now, but unfortunately there's zero change in the smoke. I drove around a bit while keeping an eye on IAT2, and I never really saw it outside of the range 65-70C, even when I was seeing smoke. If it was an EGR valve issue, I would expect to see that jump up if the valve is open at all, right? I'm all out of ideas...

 

[roysmith161]

Finally got the new MAF sensor installed. The IAT measurement makes sense now, but unfortunately there's zero change in the smoke. I drove around a bit while keeping an eye on IAT2, and I never really saw it outside of the range 65-70C, even when I was seeing smoke. If it was an EGR valve issue, I would expect to see that jump up if the valve is open at all, right? I'm all out of ideas...

Just wondering if you found the solution to this issue. My 2007 6.0 (all stock) is doing the same thing.

 

[roysmith161]

Finally got the new MAF sensor installed. The IAT measurement makes sense now, but unfortunately there's zero change in the smoke. I drove around a bit while keeping an eye on IAT2, and I never really saw it outside of the range 65-70C, even when I was seeing smoke. If it was an EGR valve issue, I would expect to see that jump up if the valve is open at all, right? I'm all out of ideas...

At 1500 rpms rolls black smoke. More times than others. Transmission down shifts smoke goes away.