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Brake and ABS light on, no converter lockup

5K views 39 replies 5 participants last post by  Mark Kovalsky 
#1 ·
So to start, I have a 1993 f250. It's an automatic with the e4od. 117k miles. Rebuilt trans (first owner had it rebuilt one time several years ago, I don't recall what for). It's bone stock minus true dual straight pipe exhaust.

So the other day when I started my truck, I had the brake light and the abs light come on out of nowhere. The previous drive in the truck before this start I did not have any problems. I thought maybe it was just a fluke weird thing that didn't mean anything as I hadn't had any problems, so I drove to where I had to go. I didn't experience any problems or anything weird/unusual. When I went to leave where I went, when I started it up, the lights had gone out. I thought "cool"! It was just a dumb fluke thing. The ride home I was pulling a trailer. As soon as I got going highway speeds, I noticed my rpms were higher than usual. So going 60 I let off the throttle in hopes it'd lock the converter, it didn't. So I floored it hoping it would downshift, then rehit top gear then lock the converter. It didn't. Then the "off" light for turning overdrive off on the gear shifter started blinking. Luckily I was only 8 miles from home, so I just drove it there.

So, like anyone, I went to Google to do some digging as to what all these lights meant. I got that it could be a host of things. I went and bought an obd1 reader and read my KOEO codes and got a throttle position sensor code. I thought "awesome! Thats gotta be it" since I had read that could cause my symptoms. So I tested the sensor and it tested good (signal going to and from the connector and voltage range). So I figured I'd go and buy a new sensor anyway. I went and bought a new sensor replaced it and it did nothing.. I adjusted it within the 1.2v and 4.5v parameters and it did nothing. I checked the codes again and still got a tps code even though it was a new sensor.

I read that vss could be the cause of my symptoms as well. I don't have any other vss symptoms though (speedo works fine, it isn't jumpy or faulty, and i dont have cruise so that's not a factor). Do vss's either work or not? Can a vss work for one aspect of its job but not work for the other? Or do they break and everything it's responsible for breaks?

My master cylinder is full, it isn't a low fluid issue. There is nothing weird or off with the brakes. It brakes and stops without issue as it always has.

I don't have any led bulbs to goof things up. I also do not have a 3rd brake light (which I have read being the culprit on others), mine just has a cargo light.

My brake light bulbs are functional (no broken filaments) and the sockets appear fine as well. I will note on this topic though, that I have fast blink on both side blinkers, but they have been blinking fast for over a year, so I don't think it's related.

I checked all related fuses, and none of them are blown. I checked every fuse for the heck of it too, and I didn't have any fuses blown at all.

Also, I read disconnecting the batteries and letting it sit a while would reset the computer. So I did that and it stopped the "od off" light blinking. But the brake and abs lights remained.

Could I simply have a faulty torque converter and those lights are letting me know that? Is an e4od designed to give brake related lights when the torque converter is messed up?

I'm super at a loss here.. I'm not sure what else to do or check. Any and all help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!
 
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Discussion starter · #4 ·
The first thing to check for both lights on at the same time is the fluid level circuit. If the level is good, make sure the float is up. If so, make sure the switch is NOT closed. Simply unplugging it with the key in RUN is a valid test. If both lights go off, the switch is the problem.

(click this text)
I unplugged it and just the brake light went off.
 
Discussion starter · #5 ·
The first thing to check for both lights on at the same time is the fluid level circuit. If the level is good, make sure the float is up. If so, make sure the switch is NOT closed. Simply unplugging it with the key in RUN is a valid test. If both lights go off, the switch is the problem.

(click this text)
The float is not stuck by the way either.

So I checked the wiring with a volt meter for continuity. There are three wires. Do you know which wire is what?

Left wire is black, middle wire is green with yellow stripe, and right wire looks light pinkish (maybe faded white) with a green stripe. When I probe the middle and right wires together, my meter beeps. This is with the key off.

Is there a test I should do and if so what wires should I be probing and what position should the key be in?
 

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Discussion starter · #7 ·
First off, what codes did you get?

Second, when you ran the key on engine off test did you hold the accelerator on the floor while the test was running? If you didn't, you will get a TPS code. It doesn't mean the TPS is bad, it means you didn't run the test correctly.
Ahhh thats crazy. The first time I ran the test, I did not. The second time I did it (after reading the instructions) I did. So I wonder if the trouble code was stored in there the second time I did it cause I did it wrong the first time? That explains why my tps tested good.
 
Discussion starter · #11 ·
The reed switch is stuck closed.

(click this text)
Did you look at the pic I linked?Without knowing exactly where each probe is, and the meter's setting, and the meter brand/MN, that doesn't tell me anything.Read the ABS codes:

(click this text)
Thanks for those bits of information man.

So I replaced the master cylinder, which I assume did fix the issue because the brake light and the abs light went out. I disconnected both batteries for about two hours, which I thought reset the computer or whatever it is. I took it for a test drive and still no converter lockup.... about 3 minutes into the drive, the "off" light on the gear selector started blinking again. Is there a trouble code or something stored in the transmission that needs to be reset or something? Beyond what unhooking the batteries for a while will do?
 
Discussion starter · #15 ·
It only takes ~3min, but that's NOT the right way to clear fault codes.No, the engine/trans codes are stored in the EEC. This page explains everything about reading & clearing those codes. It only takes a jumper wire (paperclip).
So I did a obd1 test on it last night (after fixing the brake lights on problems and getting limp mode on the test drive..) and got code 62, which is something like "transmission 4/3 circuit malfunction" or something close to that. So I did some more digging and learned this code is very broad and unreliable. Alot of people said unplugging and cleaning the connectors of both ends of where the connection goes into the transmission will solve that code. So I did the whole disconnect battery thing, which did get the truck out of limp mode and got the off light to stop flashing. Then I cleaned the connections and took it on a test drive and still no converter lockup.. BUT I did not get a flashing off light this time either.

So to sum it up, all lights are off, the truck isn't in limp mode (which I assume means no faults were found) and still no converter lockup.

Is there some way to tell if it is simply a bad torque converter? Other than jacked up wiring somewhere, there isn't anything else it could be from what I've gathered.

I'd hate to replace the torque converter and still have the same issue..
 
Discussion starter · #17 ·
Code 62 does not mean transmission 4/3 circuit malfunction. It means that the converter is not locked when the PCM commands it to be locked.

If that is the only code you have it points to a mechanical problem, not an electrical problem. It could be a bad converter, a stuck torque converter clutch control valve (this valve is located in the pump body,) or a bad seal on the input shaft.
Is there a way to test and diagnose the solenoid? I assume when you said control valve you meant the solenoid?
 
Discussion starter · #20 ·
No, the solenoid is the solenoid. The control valve is located inside the pump body and is not the solenoid.

The best way to test the solenoid is to see if any codes set that point to the solenoid. Other than that, you could put 12 volts across it and listen for the armature to move.
So it just occurred to me to mention this! My truck for the last three years leaks trans fluid out of that tube that comes off of the bottom of it only during the summer months. I assume it leaks when it reaches a certain temperature that is only achievable with a certain ambient air temperature. Someone told me it needs a bigger trans cooler, someone else told me it needed a seal (I don't remember what seal), and someone else told me to clean a vent tube (not even sure if that exists). Being cheap and lazy, I never did anything, I just stopped using it on days that were above 80 degrees. I don't know why, but I decided that was a good number haha. When it would leak, it would leak quite a bit. There would be long trails (hundreds of feet long) leading to the point where I stopped, where it would then leave a puddle. Id always just add fluid to compensate what was lost, which was never more than 3 quarts (that I can recall).

So you mentioned an input shaft seal, could this be the same seal that the above person stated would be causing my leak from that tube? If so, could this seal finally have broken enough to be causing the no lockup situation?
 
Discussion starter · #21 ·
Code 62 does not mean transmission 4/3 circuit malfunction. It means that the converter is not locked when the PCM commands it to be locked.

If that is the only code you have it points to a mechanical problem, not an electrical problem. It could be a bad converter, a stuck torque converter clutch control valve (this valve is located in the pump body,) or a bad seal on the input shaft.
I should also mention that the night the no lockup condition started, when I got home after driving it the 7 miles back, there was a long fluid trail and a puddle under my truck. 2 quarts were lost. The temperature outside was like 50 degrees. I do know that the trans gets extra hot when the converter isn't locking up. So I know it leaked cause of that, not the ambient air temp being too hot. So anyway, it hasn't leaked again since that night. I added back the 2 quarts it lost and It hasn't Leaked any back out. I have driven it maybe a total of 6 miles, that's only been short 1 mile drives to test if what I did fixed the problem though. So the seal is at least still working at low transmission temperatures.
 
Discussion starter · #23 ·
The torque converter hub seal is the seal that is causing the fluid to come out of the transmission. It won't cause no lockup. The seals that can prevent lockup are on the input shaft inside of the torque converter. All of those seals require the trans to come out and the torque converter removed from the transmission to replace.
Still haven't solved this. I took it to a trans shop, where unfortunately it has just been sitting... I called today to get a status update and was told "it's going on the lift tomorrow. They're gonna do a neutral safety switch on it". Could that even be a potential problem? I figured someone would have mentioned that here already if it was a possibility.

I told the shop everything I had done/tested and confirmed so far. I don't know what testing/diagnostics they have done to come up with that as a potential solution. I don't want them wasting time and money throwing parts at it though.
 
Discussion starter · #24 ·
The torque converter hub seal is the seal that is causing the fluid to come out of the transmission. It won't cause no lockup. The seals that can prevent lockup are on the input shaft inside of the torque converter. All of those seals require the trans to come out and the torque converter removed from the transmission to replace.
So it sounds like I need to replace the torque converter. Is there anything else I should replace/give attention to while I'm doing this?

You mentioned in a earlier comment it could be a stuck tcc control valve. Is this in/apart of the torque converter and would be therefor being replaced if I did the whole torque converter?
 
Discussion starter · #26 ·
No, the valve is in the pump body, not in the torque converter.
I see the difference in what's what and what's where now. I did some video watching.

So let me tell you where I'm at now.

I hadn't ruled out whether or not it was the solenoid pack yet, so today I put 12v to the wire (purple with yellow stripe if I'm not mistaken) and I could hear a click happening inside the pan. If I can hear that click, that means the solenoid works, correct?

Tomorrow I'm going to rig a test light to that wire so I can see if it is being commanded to engage that solenoid. If it is working and commanding that solenoids engagement, it would definitely have to be the tc, tcc control valve, or the seal. Right?

Also, I can drive it around under normal conditions and not get a blinking off light on the gear selector. I'm not sure what would happen if I romped on it, but driving around not exceeding 45mph in 4th gear, it isn't sending a code. Does that tell you anything?

Thanks!
 
Discussion starter · #27 ·
No, the valve is in the pump body, not in the torque converter.
Ok so I did a test light on the circuit. What I did was stripped a little section of insulation off of the purple wire with the yellow stripe and hooked an alligator clamp to it. I ran that to one lead of a random led light. Then I hooked another wire via alligator clip to a spot on the frame (a good bare metal clean spot) and ran that to the other lead of the led light.

As soon as I turn the key on, the light lights up and stays lit. It stayed lit through startup and a short test drive. I was assuming the circuit only got power when the pcm detected and commanded the torque converter to lockup? Should this wire have 12 volts all the time? Or did I not do something right with my test light setup? Thanks in advance!
 
Discussion starter · #29 ·
That wire should be grounded when the PCM wants the converter applied. It's feeding power through the solenoid to power your light. Instead of putting the other lead from the light to ground, attach it to power.
Ok, so I got the test light hooked up correctly and I was getting signal from the pcm to to engage the torque converter. So, it is definitely internal.

So I finally got around to dropping the transmission today! Boy is that a hassle in the gravel driveway....

Anyway, is there anything I can do to test to see if it's the torque converter itself? Also, does anything inside here look funky? I read posts before where a guy said the input shaft seal was completely gone. I don't know where that seal should be, so from the pictures can you tell if it's there or not?

Also, there is a smaller shaft that slides in and out of the bigger shaft freely. Should there be a seal between those two? I'm able to pull the smaller shaft out completely. Is that supposed to be like that?

I'm a total rookie here, as I have never done or seen any of this before, so please bear with me on my lack of knowledge about what's what and what should be here or there. Thanks!
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Discussion starter · #31 ·
The small shaft can come out. There should be seals in there, too.
What about answers to all the other questions I asked in my last post? I know you're probably busy in life and I know you answer/respond to alot of people problems on here and other forums. So if you have time that you could answer the rest of the questions I asked and advise me what I can do to test different things and what to look for, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks!
 
Discussion starter · #33 ·
Look at the front face of the converter, the end that faces the engine. Is it blued? If so, it's been slipping and needs to be replaced. Any further checking involves cutting the converter open.


Nothing in the photos looks bad. There are seals on the small shaft that can't be seen with the shaft in place.


Yes, there are seals on the smaller shaft. And yes, it should pull out like that.
The seals on the shaft, where are they? I didn't see anything inside the bore the shaft slides through. I also don't see anywhere on the shaft a seal would sit?

Does the input shaft seal here look alright?
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Is whatever these rings are supposed to have those slits in them?
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This bearing was just sitting loosely in the deepest point of the transmission you can see in the picture. Is that normal?
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All three valves move freely without any sticky feeling to them. The circled valves spring is much less stiff than the other two. Is that normal? It still has spring pressure for sure though, it isn't loose at all, just less tension.
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These chunks of rust (at least I believe it's rust. Could be something else, but they're hard) we're sitting in that cavity inside the pump. No idea where they're from, but could that be a problem? Also lastly, one of the valves (I don't remember which one, but it wasn't the smaller valve in the middle) had a small piece of rust in the bottom that wouldn't allow the metal piece of the valve touch down all the way to wear it comes in contact with the pump. It was a very slender peice, so it was probly like 1/100th of an inch from going down all the way.
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I also sent you a message Mark. Just a heads up!
 
Discussion starter · #36 ·
That is the torque converter hub seal. It has nothing to do with lockup. I can't see the sealing end in this photo, but if it were bad the converter would still lock, but it would leak fluid all over the ground.



Yes, they should have the slits. That is how you get the seals on the shaft. These are the seals that make the lockup work.
I don't have a diagram, nor a good enough memory to remember which valve is which. I haven't been inside an E4OD in this century.


Probably not.

That could have had the valve stuck before you took the pump out. If it was the right valve it might have been the problem.

The problem could also be a failed torque converter. The only way to know if the converter had an internal failure is to cut it open.
Thank you for all the replies! They were very helpful!

So, I haven't cut the torque converter open yet. I'd like to rule other things out first before I do that. Is there a way to bench test the pump? Or is it basically if the valves move, it works? And could the chunks of rust that were inside the pump been from something internal of the torque converter?

Also, where is the input shaft seal you had mentioned? What does it look like? Searching "e4od input shaft seal" is not providing me anything conclusive on what this seal looks like.
 
Discussion starter · #39 ·
The rings that you asked about the slits are the input shaft seals.
Alright so, update! I found a complete trans near me for about the cost of a new pump and converter. I figured shoot, for the same price I might as well have this then my old as a spare. Ended up being a bad idea... I installed it and it doesn't work right either...

This new trans came out of a 1993 with 137k miles. It has a remanufactured converter with unknown miles. Any history of the trans is also unknown. The guy that sold it to me said it worked with no problems. He sent me several videos of him driving the truck before it was pulled, but not enough apparently.. so here's what it's doing.

I finished the install and took it for a test drive. When you take off in D, it feels like when you try to take of in a manual vehicle in like 2nd or 3rd gear. It goes nowhere, it has no power, and takes a while to get to speed. So I take it down the road just to see what it does. It shifts first at around 20mph, then again at like 38ish mph, then again at like 55ish. I'm not sure what shift is what or what is the tc lockup, but I only feel three events of something when it's supposed to be four feelable events, correct? Is the trans missing a gear?

So, I get done the short test ride, and check the fluid since it's at operating temp at that point. It had way too much, I didn't realize the trans had so much fluid in it still when I got it. So I thought maybe the above symptoms were due to too much fluid. So I drained it to the right level and went for another ride, same thing. So I don't know what's going on. Also, when I select 1 instead of D, it takes off like it should. It feels like normal. But when I move it from 1 to 2, I don't get a shift. Whatever gear it's in when 1 is selected, it never shifts out of it. At 40ish mph I shifted from 2 to D, and it shifted.

Lastly, the only thing I saw out of the ordinary during the install was one of the prongs of the neutral safety switch connector was bent down. I bent it back up. I don't remember which one. When I connected the harness side to the switch, if it bent it back down again, could that cause these problems? I didn't check it out of frustration and the desire to go home after a long day of trans install then failed test ride.

Thanks in advance!
 
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