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Brakes not fully releasing again.Please help me!

18K views 36 replies 8 participants last post by  06 harley 6.0 
#1 ·
In 08 I bought new a 2008 model F250 and have 100k miles on it now. The only issue i've ever really had are with the brakes. Over the years I have had multiple issues with brake calipers not fully releasing. This normally happens on the front left but all wheels have done this. To date I'm on my 4th set of rotors for the front and 3rd set on the rear with multiple pad replacements. So back in mid 2015 I had the brake system flush done again and have had no caliper releasing issues since. The only problem is that the front rotors were badly warped from past issues but I was scared to replace them again. So since 6 months had passed with no issues I decided to have my local Ford dealer replace pads and rotors yesterday on the front. Today I took a 20 mile drive and they didn't fully release again causing the normal bad smell and white smoke rolling out from both front fender wells. On the way home I dropped it back off at the Ford dealer so they could see first hand. To date I have used 3 different dealers and spent well over $3000 on brake parts for this truck. Can someone please help me? I'm at a lost and none of the dealers seem to have a clue as to what the issue is. By the way I have used both OEM and Napa brake components. Thanks in advance.
 
#2 ·
Can you list the components that have been replaced in the attempt to correct this concern? Keep the list simple, please.
 
#3 ·
I'm not a mechanic but the only items I know for sure are the pads and rotors. I do know the second time this happened was in 2010 and I was towing with about 12k (new traile with dual axle brakes) coming back from the mountains and the front left got extremely hot damaging most all the components. I only remember this as the dealer mentioned the heat damaged extra components. I can try to go through old invoices if needed. At this point I think it's something up stream from individual brake locations as I have had problems with all 4. The funny thing (not really funny) is that normally its front left but has also been all brakes at one time or another. Never all at once but just one or maybe like this time both front brakes. Typically it is one brake not releasing at a time though.
 
#13 · (Edited)
...... At this point I think it's something up stream from individual brake locations as I have had problems with all 4. The funny thing (not really funny) is that normally its front left but has also been all brakes at one time or another. Never all at once but just one or maybe like this time both front brakes. Typically it is one brake not releasing at a time though.
......based on whats occurring with the brakes its definitely not a individual brake issue. I see no way this is possible considering it has happened to all four at different times. Never more than two at once but normally one at a time. Today it happened to be both front brakes. Based on this I feel its something either with the ABS system, master cylinder etc as the issue has to be more up stream of the actual brakes themselves. I'm no expert but I will be surprised if this isn't the case.
I can get a list for everyone as I have all that data. Again just can't understand how it can be a individual brake issue. Yes if one or two doesn't release at times I can see a binding issue, rust, needing grease or cleaning etc but starting from being a new truck, all repaired and cleaned multiple times and occurring systematically over a 8 year period just doesn't add up to me. I will see what I can put together next week for everyone. Thank you
From your postings on all the different forums it appears your looking for suggestions so you can hand them to the service advisor for the mechanic to look for. That will be insulting to most of the guys in the bay's and depending on the personality of who gets this jackpot it could get expensive.

Since your not the one doing the work the best suggestion I have would be to talk to people locally to find who would take the time to fully go over the system objectively once the 20mile problem is resolved.

As I stated earlier you mention changing rotors often. These will not cause the issue and only be suffering damage from the issue. You've changed pads numberious times. Those may or may not be part of the issue, but you don't state if they have been aftermarket or what brands, or if during disassembly there was any hangup. No where has it been mentioned if any calipers were changed, which could be more problematic then the other parts you've mentioned changing.

I've already stated where I would first look since this recent problem occurred within 20 miles of the install. Every time you have an issue it has to be looked at as a new problem. Could the stoplight switch be hanging up, yes but that typically causes 4 wheel hangup. Was the switch recently changed?

Did you ask the shop to just change the pads and rotors or were they aware to look for any other issues? The other question I would ask the installer is how they protected the front caliper hoses from damage during the install. But if this would be coming into my hands as I stated earlier I would duplicate the problem and check for residual brake fluid pressure first, but my more direct investigation would be pad fitment.
 
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#4 ·
How many miles are on the truck, is that consistent year to year, and does the truck sit for any extended time? And where are you located?
 
#6 · (Edited)
Where are you? Fill in your profile & signature.

If everything was doing fine, WHY did you have anything replaced? It seems like you're making problems for yourself.

So is jumping between several shops. No one knows what's going on because you've gone to so many different places. Find ONE you like, and try to stick with it. Then they can monitor & evaluate the truck's history. At this point, neither you nor anyone else can even guess if all these problems are related, or just coincidental. Same for the parts - if you don't know which parts are on the truck, then you can't judge if it's a problem with the parts, or the installation (the shops), or the operation (you).

Has anyone ever cleaned all the brake components back down to smooth metal, and then applied brake grease to all the working surfaces?

.

Has EVERYONE always torqued the lug nuts properly?



I prefer MotorCraft parts (if I can get them) for obvious reasons; and some not-so-obvious:



Has anyone ever bedded the new pads to the new rotors, or are you just driving off?
 
#7 ·
Well if you read my original post you will see the reason I decided to changed out the front rotors. Its because I was tired of the vibration when braking from warped front rotors. Yes the brakes had been releasing properly for six months but at the same time i was tired of driving a truck with warped rotors. As for jumping from shop to shop i went to the first dealer 3-4 times with no success and honestly felt like they didn't have a clue as to what they were doing. Then went to the second shop in 2010 which worked on the brakes another 3-4 times. The last time we thought we had it fixed then I moved to another city. A year or so later the problem resurfaced so obviously I'm not driving back to the previous dealer. Keep in mind this truck is 8 years old so 3 dealers in 8 years is really nothing out of the norm anyways. On top of this Ford has all the documentation for all parts and repairs to my truck which i'm sure is easily accessible to any Ford dealer. I also have all the repair history in my glove box and will provide to them Monday if needed. To your point on polishing parts, bedding pads etc again based on whats occurring with the brakes its definitely not a individual brake issue. I see no way this is possible considering it has happened to all four at different times. Never more than two at once but normally one at a time. Today it happened to be both front brakes. Based on this I feel its something either with the ABS system, master cylinder etc as the issue has to be more up stream of the actual brakes themselves. I'm no expert but I will be surprised if this isn't the case.
 
#8 ·
The problem trying to solve issues like this is it takes dedicated and repeated examination of the parts during disassembly to try to pin down an exact cause. And there are a number of things that will cause dragging brakes. I'm not trying to be derogatory here, but most mechanics at either the dealer or independent garage are trying to get paid under a fixed scale, and the business and mechanic are trying to solve an issue that won't be a rework. So often it ends up being a parts change situation and not a diagnosis. Having three calipers put on at one location doesn't mean that it's a caliper problem if you follow my logic.

I've spent 25 years vehicle testing brakes and about the same trying to help people online. Two front brakes dragging at the same time may mean an upstream issue, or it may mean two brakes happened to drag at the same time. At 12 years in I may have stated it was upstream, but with another 12 years I've learned fate is fickle.

For your worry about rotors - they cannot cause a brake binding issue. If they are installed with a high amount of runout they eventually will develop pulsation, and if they are turned because of pulsation they certainly will again as they likely have hard spotting.

For brake drag to occur right after new pads are installed, in my experience the most likely cause is the pads binding in the brackets. This can occur with aftermarket (which includes red boxed Motorcraft branded pads) that are two wide or have excessive paint, or there is rust in the brackets under the stainless steel slippers that they ride in.

The first thing I do when examining a vehicle that has an issue of a dragging brake is to repeat the issue so as it is occurring I can break open the calipers bleeder screw and see if there is pressurized brake fluid. If there is then I know something is trapping brake fluid flow so I need to diagnose if it's the hose, ABS or partially applied master cylinder. A master cylinder rarely, but can cause two wheels to remain engaged at the same time. The ABS controller for your year I believe still only had three circuits, two front and one rear. If it was ABS then one would have to expect both circuits to fail at the same time. But ABS issues are rare.

Rebuilt calipers are someone else's problem. While some rebuilders are better then others, all have to deal with corroded cores, and despite all the blasting or etching in the world, you not going to remove the pitting in the dust boot grooves so rebuilt calipers are more prone to poor environmental sealing then new stock. This is why people keep asking what part of the country you are in so we can understand that aspect.

I haven't had access to Ford warranty data since '08 and I haven't had discussions with a Ford FSE about this issues in the last few years (that would be Dan Y., Keith) so I can't address if there has been a higher percentage of issues with caliper Pistons seizing. I know from the boards there have been aftermarket piston issues due to thermal swell. That is not something any dealer or independent mechanic is going to be able to address.

So what I'm trying to get across is solving this type of problems is as difficult for a shop as much as it is for an owner. And more so when the vehicle owner is not doing the work because no matter what I may tell you to check the guy at the wheel is trying to get it done without a comeback and money still in his pocket. And diagnosis takes a lot of time. In my engineering capacity I have spend more then a week of my time and a technicians time trying to solve a brake issue like this. Hell, I spent 5 years trying to sort out Ranger/Aerostar/BroncoII rear drum brake grab.

It's frustrating and I can certainly understand your frustration. But when people with experience like ford_doctor and myself are asking very specific questions it's because there are details that can help us problem solve.
 
#12 · (Edited)
For brake drag to occur right after new pads are installed, in my experience the most likely cause is the pads binding in the brackets. This can occur with aftermarket (which includes red boxed Motorcraft branded pads) that are two wide or have excessive paint, or there is rust in the brackets under the stainless steel slippers that they ride in.

This is the NUMBER ONE problem I see with brakes on these trucks. We call it rust jacking. I remove loose rust and scale with a wire wheel on a bench grinder, then clean up the pad slides with a hand file. I then apply an anti-seize compound to the metal before installing the sleeves on the slides. This prevents rust jacking from under the brake pad slides and is effective.


If this is not a mechanical issue with the brake then it is possibly a hydraulic problem. I have in the past seen ABS hydraulic units cause this - mostly on cab and chassis trucks with dual rear wheels - the rear brake pressure intermittently does not release with the brake pedal. ONCE I have seen this happen on a pick-up but I cant recall what axle/wheels were involved. Just thought I would mention it.


Lastly, we have had issues with hydro-boost systems causing braking problems related to pedal feel, pedal kick back and brakes grabbing. Repairs can be as simple as flushing the power steering system and installing an in-line filter in the return line to component replacement. This of course only applies to trucks equipped with the hydro-boost hydraulic brake booster. If this is a diesel truck it will have this.
 
#9 ·
I can get a list for everyone as I have all that data. Again just can't understand how it can be a individual brake issue. Yes if one or two doesn't release at times I can see a binding issue, rust, needing grease or cleaning etc but starting from being a new truck, all repaired and cleaned multiple times and occurring systematically over a 8 year period just doesn't add up to me. I will see what I can put together next week for everyone. Thank you
 
#10 ·
By the way I live in the Charlotte NC area and my truck vary rarely goes off road. Its garaged when not in use and sees more hwy driving than anything.
 
#11 ·
By the way in another forum a guy mentions a very similar issue and said the brake light sensor was out of adjustment which was not allowing the pedal to move out far enough away from the floor board. Possibility?
 
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#14 ·
Sorry for my ignorance but what does power steering fluid have to do with the hydro boost? Reason I ask is my truck was made when hydro boost was first introduced in 2008.
 
#15 ·
Hydroboost has been used on this platform well before 2008. Class 3 and below trucks typically use two methods of brake assist, vacuum or boost. Due to the inherent operating characteristics of a diesel you either install a vacuum pump and the same vacuum booster as a gas motor, or you install a hydroboost brake assist that relies on the hydraulic pressure from a power steering pump for brake assist.

If someone is telling you all your brake problems are related to power steering fluid or the hydroboost, just put them on ignore.
 
#19 ·
If someone is telling you all your brake problems are related to power steering fluid or the hydroboost, just put them on ignore.

Well that wasn't nice. If all 4 wheels drag a brake booster CAN be the cause, vacuum or hydraulic so I felt it was worth a mention. My bad for mentioning it. Didn't mean to step on your toes.
 
#16 ·
Well Ford Doctor mentioned it. Just trying to cover all bases. And by the way when I was buying my truck I printed out some info that said job 3 trucks of 2008 would be seeing the addition of hydro-boost which was not on the job 1 trucks and I'm pretty certain the job 2's either.
 
#17 ·
Yes, he mentioned it in the context of overall brake issues related to pedal feel, kick back and over aggressiveness. Ford has gone back and forth with vacuum pumps/boosters and hydroboost for decades.
 
#20 ·
Didn't mean it the way you took it Keith and don't disagree. His history of brake hang ups on an individual brake would not be related to HB. You were giving generalities, he was interested in his issues. I wear steel toed shoes, stepped on never an issue.

Steve,

I've used both petroleum and silicone based anti-seize products and they both have worked well in the application Keith mentioned. The ingredients carried won't matter between the knuckles and slippers as your just looking for a thick paste to displace any moisture that could migrate into that area.

For the last dozen years I've been using Dow Corning Molykote 77, silicone with moly. It's a higher viscosity product that the Asian companies use in the brake area.
 
#24 ·
I'm glad you gave the mechanic all the history, and that is part of why I've been frustrated with this thread. While I do understand how frustrating this is for you, and your desperately looking for an answer, from my perspective I saw an owner who was going to be a mechanics worst nightmare, one who going to give him a list of things to do and not a discussion. I could go on but let's just move on and forget the earlier part of this thread.

There have been two designing suppliers for this truck platform. From '99 to '05 Ford used Akebono, a company with a long history with Asian vehicles. There were issues of brake hangup and a few other things that took warranty numbers high enough that Ford decided to go back to their original caliper supplier. And now we have the same issues. And other truck manufacturers have seen the same issues also with different caliper suppliers in this same weight class. The Akebono caliper was really just a big brother of its other calipers and somewhere I have pictures that show they were just bigger for this application. Yet the pass car is free of these issues.

So what the heck is going on? From my perspective I've not seen one solid answer. From my prior testing the only variable I can identify over the decades is that with this weight class the brakes run cooler on average. With the older 250/350 in our durability tests of normal driving we ran mostly 100f over boiling water temp. Since disc/disc we did not. This may be contributing to higher oxidation at the pad ends, slide pins and behind the caliper dust boots. Honestly, this is a SWAG as I have no support data. But we see slide pin issues, pads hanging in the brackets and caliper hangup all the time, all caliper designs and vehicle manufacturers.

So when people ask for solutions some of us have seen improved results with the things discussed, making sure the pads move freely on first install, preventative measures to resist oxidation at the pad ends and caliper slides, and checking on a routine basis. I've done that with my several F250/350s I've never had these brakes hangup, the current truck at 13 years and 200k. And there are times I pull a 12k trailer.

Brake hoses have been a contributor to problems and the times I have seen that relate to someone servicing the brakes and distress ion the hoses or have a lifted truck where they don't realize the hoses being distressed at full turn and suspension extension. After about ten years they can also have age related issues.

The aftermarket side has just increased this jackpot exponentially. Coming from a supplier of both OE and aftermarket, spec control is weak and it is very easy to have the pads steel backs oversize or have excessive paint. This is true even with aftermarket pads sold through vehicle manufacturers dealers, in this trucks case, Motorcraft.

Then we have rebuilt calipers. Rebuilders use aftermarket seals and pistons which have the same spec issues. A few years back there was a huge increase of issues with rebuilt calipers hanging up, and while I have no test data, my industry experience tells me that was due to phenolic pistons not being fully cured as they would swell when hot. And you always have the issue with rebuilt calipers exhibiting corrosion pitting in the boot seal groove which do not seal as well as new castings, so the propensity of corrosion sooner in the rebuilt calipers in-service life is higher.

And we have occasional issues such as a newly install brake switch hanging up, or rust developing between the master cylinder and hydrobooster, or boosters issues.

So here we have the situation where my truck is twice as old and twice as many miles as your and I've never had an issue. And with all the various issues you've had each could be one of the items listed above. And why with each situation it's important for someone to document what they found to be that problem. You could round robin all four wheel brakes and never have the same issue.

And yeah, 'no problem found' is just as frustrating for the mechanic as it is for the owner as you know it will be coming back. And for people who are trying to help over the computer.

So, when this mechanic reviewed this problem you saw 20 miles into this install, did he run the same route as you did? On reexamination were the pads freely moving in the brackets and lubricated?
 
#27 ·
Yeah, there is a reason but it's not because they've eliminated moly in greases, nor have they.

So where do get this toxicity warning?
 
#29 · (Edited)
...it's not because they've eliminated moly in greases...
That wasn't about moly - it was only about anti-seize on brake slides.
So where do get this toxicity warning?
I think the first time I heard about it was from an instructor at 11MC2 school (Bradley IFV crewman) back in the mid 90s, I guess. The specified grease for part of the Bushmaster's receiver or feeder was GMD which stands for "grease, molybdenum disulfide". But he said it stood for "grease'll makeya dead" because of its toxicity, and because he had trouble pronouncing the chemical names. :grin2: Ford used to (as late as '89) specify the same grease for speedo cables & several other general maintenance items, but now recommends PTFE in old speedo cables.



fcsdchemicalsandlubricants.com said:
PTFE Lubricant

For use with driveshaft slip yokes; especially where grunt-type noise is experienced
Useful in eliminating squeaks between plastic parts
For use on speedometer cables; stops squeaking, sticking and binding
I only just thought of digging up an MSDS for it, and although I haven't found one for the grease version yet, I found these for the powder:
https://www.fishersci.com/shop/msdsproxy?productName=AC215781000
http://www.khck.hk/adgoogle/catalog/Molybdenum disulfide MSDS.pdf
http://www.espimetals.com/index.php/msds/679-molybdenum-sulfide
Well it looks like we have a bunch of peeps pissin on each other here.
We're just discussin'. :winking:
 
#28 ·
Well it looks like we have a bunch of peeps pissin on each other here. I'm gonna bow out and let you experts handle it.


sawtooth I do hope you finally resolve your concern.
 
#30 ·
Jumping in here...

Half of our business is fixing other guys' crap. Half of our customers come here because someone else couldn't fix the problems they were having.

Furthermore, I'm a very "There it is" kind of technician. I prefer to put my finger on the root of the problem so that we can fix it right...the last time. Simply throwing parts at something is NOT a quality repair and is akin to wasting/steeling a customer's money. Going to Autozone and having some Freckle-Faced kid read the trouble codes is NOT diagnosis.

Back in the day (circa 1986), I was working in a small Lincoln Mercury dealership in FL. We had a lady with a brand
new Town Car come in with the front brakes melted. The rotors were a lovely shade blue, the pads were half gone and crumbling, even the boots on the steering linkage were melted...these babies had been HOT. When we checked it out, everything looked OK. Everything turned freely, nothing was jammed up, it all looked fine, so we jammed a set of rotors and pads on it, rebuilt the calipers (we did that back then), fixed all the melted stuff and sent her on her way. Low and Behold, the car comes back 2-weeks later on a hook with the front brakes melted again. This was around the time that Kelsey-Hayes was doing the ABS systems. So this time we went further. We replaced the master cylinder, ABS module and HCU, 2 new Ford calipers along with the rest of the blue stuff. this time we kept the car for a period of time and put some miles on it for ourselves to try and duplicate the problem. One day while driving it, I felt the brakes start to lock down. It wouldn't move from a stop without the throttle and it started to smell like hot brakes. I pulled over and looked around. Sure enough, the front rotors were way too hot. I could feel the heat coming thru the wheels. I looked under the hood at the brake fluid and all was well. I decided to pull the cap and as I did, I heard a Pfffft noise and the level came up a little. I thought to myself, "Son of a Hillary, I just found the problem". As the car was driven, heat was expanding the fluid and the cap was not venting the pressure. So a $3 reservoir cap fixed the problem.

Fast forward 10 years, I was an experienced tech and an avid fan of the Taurus SHO. There were 5 Factory Trained SHO Specialists in the country of which, I was one. The '91 SHO's started having a problem with dragging the rear brakes. Same sort of thing where the car wouldn't roll on its own but if you lifted up on the brake pedal with your toe, it would work fine. I found that the brake pedal was not returning properly. Turns out, the booster in the cars were a standard Taurus piece and not SHO specific. These engines made more vacuum than the regular Taurus engines, especially downshifting with its manual transmission and could overcome the spring in the booster and drag the rear brakes. the solution...a throttle return spring added to the brake pedal under the dash to act as a helper spring. Problem Solved.

I guess the point is that a good Technician, that has all the information and gives a Barak about doing the job right can find the real problem and fix it right. You might find this guy in a dealership or in a private shop like mine. It may even be worth a trip to Atlanta.
 
#31 · (Edited)
...heat was expanding the fluid and the cap was not venting the pressure.
Brake fluid alone doesn't expand enough with heat to generate any pressure inside the calipers. The fluid or the other materials on the vehicle would catch fire long before there was any noticeable pressure rise. And brake fluid reservoir caps don't vent. Brake fluid absorbs moisture (hygroscopic) if it's exposed to fresh air, which is why reservoir caps have a diaphragm to separate the fluid from the outside air, but still allow air in as the pads wear down. The only way for pressure to build up from heat is if the fluid is already contaminated with water. When the calipers get above ~220°F, the water boils, and the steam creates pressure that applies the brakes, creating more heat...
 
#32 ·
If its happened to all the brakes you'd start with the master cylinder, and since its mostly the left side, pull off the left wheel line from the mastercylinder. Inspect for clogged lines and or dirt in your mastercylinder. Im pretty sure your going to need to replace the mastercylinder and re bleed those lines clean.
 
#33 ·
Yes all brakes but mostly left front. Just did it again Friday. No towing just 15 minutes from home. Thank you as I will try your advice
 
#35 ·
Well not totally sure as I sold it 18 months after I had the last work done. Never had another issue so figured it was resolved though. The last time it was in we changed the brake fluid and he disassembled both front brake sets replaced with new factory parts. Strange part is I had this same process done several times before but always within a year or so problem would return. Wish I could help you more but maybe draining and replacing the brake fluid did the trick.

I’ve moves on now and I’m now riding in my first GMC 2500 and really like. I’ve always been a Ford guy but between the crappy Ford seats and rougher ride I’m really liking the comfort of the GMC. It’s like night and day difference. I did enjoy my Ford though just got tired of being uncomfortable on long trips. Overall it was a good truck though. Didnt any real major issues with it just brakes, radiators, intercooler issues, and broke several cab bolts. Was at about 170k miles when I let her go last fall.
 
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