[Nobodyhearsyou]

Hey guys, I have found a few similar threads, but not one that really answers my question. I hope someone can please help!

What are some of the warm up times for a 2012 6.7 diesel? Mine just doesn't seem to cut it. Here is what I get:
Start it up. Engine oil temp (according to build in gauge app) is 23 degrees, and let truck idle.
In 20 minutes, it is up to 100 degrees.
In 30 minutes, 110 degrees.
At 1 hour, 130 degrees.

Start it up. Engine oil temp is 32 degrees. Let idle.
In 11 minutes, 85 degrees.
In 30 minutes, 118 degrees.
In 45 minutes, 127 degrees.
In 1 hour, 131 degrees.

It levels out at 130 degrees and never gets any warmer (at idle).

I also notice that it cools off whenever I stop driving, and let it idle:
After letting truck warm up to 85 degrees, drove it for 15-20 minutes. Engine oil got up to 150 degrees. Parked it and let it idle for 15 minutes. Engine oil temp dropped back down to 140 degrees.
Cab never did really warm up, and it was 35-40 degrees outside.

Another time, it dropped from 195 degrees to 163 degrees in 23 minutes (it was bout 25 degrees outside).

This is the first 6.7 I have owned. Does this seem right to you guys? The dummy gauge doesn't even move until the oil temp gets over 170. So most of the time, it just sits on the cold mark. I get that diesels can take a long time to warm up....but not to warm up at all? But lets just say they are "cold blooded", or whatever the asinine terminology people want to throw around is, shouldn't it still at least maintain operating temp (once hot)? What would cool it off so fast? And what kind of retarded engineer would design a motor that can't even maintain it's own operating temp?

Also, please understand, right now, I am just interested in figuring out the engine temp. The cab heat is a different story. I have the same issue as I have seen with others, where, even after I drive it up a hill for 29384092387560834908230956230985 miles, and get the operating temp up to 190, the heater will only blow hot air if rpms are over 1,100. Anything under, and it is just luke warm air (I see a difference of about 30-40 degrees with temp gun).

This history I know on the truck. After buying it, realized the heater wasn't up to snuff. Checked coolant and saw it was low. Found a leaking main radiator. Had radiator replaced. Got truck back, still sub par heat. Also noticed engine temp dropping at idle etc. Had the Main thermostat replace. Still have sub par heat. I think it is slightly better then it was before replacing radiator...but still.

Anyways, sorry for the long post, I really appreciate any help. I have no idea what else to do, or check, if I can't leave the wife and kids in the truck while I go shopping, might as well sell the damn thing. Which is lame, because I love everything else about the truck. I don't want to drive another sluggish gas engine again after driving this power house.

 

[MPD56]

Well it was 19 degrees here this morning, but I plugged my block heater in and remote started my truck. It was 130 when I got in and in 10 minutes it was 160. I also have the supplemental heater so the 1/2" of snow was melted off the windshield. Got to work and waited 5 minutes and the ECT when down to 154 degrees.

Might want to use a program like Torque Pro or FORScan to diagnose. You might want to install the high idle modification.


FYI:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...EzCdMFq1WVCWk_f08/edit?authkey=CKua0acM#gid=0

 

[lincster]

I would never let my truck idle for 1 hour when it is cold...... not good on the engine.

I give it 10 min when it is 32F outside and then I drive easy till I get up over 120F for oil temps.

 

[DENNY]

I would agree with the above poster. I use a block heater when it is below 20 degrees, start and once the idle is smooth I start driving. The truck is made to produce a lot of power so it has a large capable cooling system. The thermostat will help some but it will still cool of some if you are just letting it idle. My 7.3 does the same thing, as does my 5.9 12 valve.

Is this a new problem or has it been this way from day one?


Having said that I don't think I have ever been in a Ford that did not have a GREAT heater once it got warm. You may have a air pocket in the heater core or stuck mixing door. Did you happen to try putting stop leak in the system when you had the leak Prestone made an antifreeze with stop leak that would clog the heater core. Start with the simple stuff pull the thermostat back out and make sure it works right in a pan of boiling water. I would make sure you have proper amount of coolant if you do than next step would be to pull the heater core. I would only trust the built in gauge apps for trends, if you want real info get some dedicated gauges.
DENNY

 

[Nobodyhearsyou]

Thanks for the replies guys.
-So, are you saying that these engines won't warm up to operating temp (or even over 130 degrees) no matter how long you let them idle?
-MPD56, you're saying that if you let your truck idle, it will start dropping in temp?
-How long should this truck take to warm up to operating temp in 20 degree weather? It's a 15 minute drive to where i'm working now, and the truck won't even get up to 170 by the time a get there..let alone 190.

It just baffles me......why would someone design an engine that can't maintain it's own operating temperature? Running an engine cold is much worse then letting it idle all day long. Also, why is it that idling these engines is bad for them? Driving down the highway, it doesn't get much higher than idle anyways. Maybe 800 rpms.

As for problems with the truck, I only just bought it a couple months ago. First thing I did was have the radiator replaced. The previous owner told me he had no problems with it, and never had to do anything to it. So, I am sure there was never any stop leak used on the truck. I asked him about weather or not he thought the truck was cold blooded...and he didn't really think so. But, it's subjective. One person may think it is hot, when another thinks it's cold. That is why I wrote down the actual oil temps, and times.

Hey Denny, how would I make sure there are no air gaps in the system at this point? I know it is topped off with ford coolant. Also, I did get a OBD reader that should give me all info from every sensor on the truck real time. I'll double check all my numbers. I did try to check temp on heater core lines (feed and return)...but was unsuccessful in getting a accurate numbers, any pointers on how to do this?

Thanks!

 

[MPD56]

I had a 1995 GM astro van that would cool down at idle. Simply the new engines don't produce as much heat because heat is loss of energy.

I had a 15 minute drive home tonight and my EOT reached 170 degrees, I let the truck idle for a few minutes and shut the truck off a 165.

Never really thought about this to you posted this thread. The defrost on these trucks always bother me so tonight I manually set the temperature to 80 and put the fan on high, which did increase the vent temperature to a higher temperature and moved the temperature up and down to confirm it. I also thought the this truck when new produced more heat so you have me wondering about this and now have been looking and collecting data.

FYI: Fun facts
I use the OBDII App Torque Pro, this gives me alot of data to look at. My truck does have the supplemental heater. Also when my truck is below a certain temperature, at idle it uses twice the fuel rate then when the engine is at operating temperature. I drive 10 miles to work and if I use my block heater for 3 hours (on a timer) before I go to work, i use about a liter of fuel less. You will noticed that below operating temperature the engine will use fuel when coasting down a hill, but when at operating temperature the engine's fuel rate is "Zero".

 

[lincster]

Thanks for the replies guys.
-So, are you saying that these engines won't warm up to operating temp (or even over 130 degrees) no matter how long you let them idle?
-MPD56, you're saying that if you let your truck idle, it will start dropping in temp?
-How long should this truck take to warm up to operating temp in 20 degree weather? It's a 15 minute drive to where i'm working now, and the truck won't even get up to 170 by the time a get there..let alone 190.

It just baffles me......why would someone design an engine that can't maintain it's own operating temperature? Running an engine cold is much worse then letting it idle all day long. Also, why is it that idling these engines is bad for them? Driving down the highway, it doesn't get much higher than idle anyways. Maybe 800 rpms.

As for problems with the truck, I only just bought it a couple months ago. First thing I did was have the radiator replaced. The previous owner told me he had no problems with it, and never had to do anything to it. So, I am sure there was never any stop leak used on the truck. I asked him about weather or not he thought the truck was cold blooded...and he didn't really think so. But, it's subjective. One person may think it is hot, when another thinks it's cold. That is why I wrote down the actual oil temps, and times.

Hey Denny, how would I make sure there are no air gaps in the system at this point? I know it is topped off with ford coolant. Also, I did get a OBD reader that should give me all info from every sensor on the truck real time. I'll double check all my numbers. I did try to check temp on heater core lines (feed and return)...but was unsuccessful in getting a accurate numbers, any pointers on how to do this?

Thanks!

Some of your statements don't make sense.


Diesels are not made to drive 15 min in the cold and be shut down. Sounds like you should have bought a Honda Civic.
I can drive 10 min to the freeway and the truck is at 150F when it is 35F outside. 10 more minutes on the Freeway and I am at 197F. These are EOT.


800 rpm down the highway? What gear set and what speed are you driving? The truck idles at around 700. That makes no sense.


Running an engine cold is worse than idling??? But when you run the engine, it warms up. Again, makes no sense.


It is bad to idle diesels without kicking up the idle speed as it cools the internals down enough to where you get blow by past the rings and you can wash the cylinders down eventually. You also get fuel into the crankcase which causes the oil to break down.

 

[DENNY]

I think the only way to check the heater core is to pull it. Most likely a pain.

The AC will kick in when in defrost mode so try just floor or dash heat that might help.

The problem with letting diesels idle is they don't burn all the fuel and have what they call wet stacking. You could get a control panel on the older trucks that would raise the idle to keep the heat up on the 7.3 trucks popular for the trucks working on the arctic slope.

There are two radiators in the truck with different cooling paths I am a 7.3 guy so not up on this new stuff. Go check with another 6.7 owner and see if the truck will stay warm when idling.
DENNY

 

[Nobodyhearsyou]

So anyone else have warm up temps on the 6.7?
I tested it again yesterday at 15 degrees . At 15 degrees, the high idle apparently kicks in and it idled at 1200 rpms (not it's usual 600). So:
In 10 minutes it got to 80 degrees, and had idled down to 900 rpms.
I drove it for 15-20 (made on stop) minutes after that, and it got up to 140 degrees.
Drove another 10 minutes, and it got up to 160 degrees (still not operating temp).
I parked it and let it idle for 30 minutes, and it had dropped down to 140 degrees again.

^Does that sound right?

MPD56, thanks for the good info. I hope I'm not making you worry about your truck now . Interestingly, someone else had the exact same truck as me (2012 6.7 diesel), with less miles on it...and mine was about 5 degrees hotter....so I dunno, maybe this is normal for these trucks. Be thankful your truck has the supplemental heater on it, otherwise, you better wear your longjons!
Anyways, if this is just the way these trucks act, then the next thing I will try is a cold weather front. See if that makes a difference.

Denny, Yea, they went a little overboard on the cooling for these engines. There are two completely separate cooling systems, and FOUR thermostats. Not to mention 12903840198501290123498 radiators, and 8 gallons of coolant for the main system (which cools the engine). On old gas motors etc. you can check if the heater core is getting good flow by checking the inflow and outflow lines and seeing if they are the same temp (or close if heat is on)...but I can't seem to get close enough to the firewall to get a good reading.
I'm wondering if the Main thermostats let a little fluid by and back into the giant radiator..which might be enough to cool the engine, even when under operating temp. Maybe I should try a Mishimoto Thermostat. Get a high set one too! The last diesel I owned was 1984 ford 6.9 diesel. That think would melt the floor board right out of your truck and stay warm all day! And that was in Fairbanks Alaska at -60 degrees f! Oh, and as far as the slope goes. They never shut their trucks off. Just run them continuously for 5 months out of the year!

 

[MPD56]

I'm not worried about my truck at all. It was 15 degrees here today and I had about the same drive as you and had the same temperatures. With Torque Pro I can monitor ECT! and ECT2 which basically monitors the primary and secondary cooling systems. If your truck was having problems it would throw codes to let you know.


During warm up the primary thermostat
blocks the coolant flow to the
radiator and the coolant is routed
back to the pump through the
bypass circuit.


Link below on page 56 is about thermostat monitoring
http://www.google.ca/url?url=http:/...kQEOKA&usg=AFQjCNH2BvrHy0A_yu3TznIVGawu4ZScvg



http://www.forddoctorsdts.com/download-2.php?f=6.7L_Diesel-F.pdf


http://www.forddoctorsdts.com/download-2.php?f=6.7LCoffeeTableBookV5DTS.pdf


Hope the links work.

 

[FoxFanRay]

From the 6.7L Ford Diesel Owners Manual:

"COLD WEATHER OPERATION
Note: Idling in cold weather does not heat the engine to its normal operating temperature. Long periods of idling, especially in cold weather, can cause a buildup of deposits which can cause engine damage."

 

[Nobodyhearsyou]

Thanks for that info! So, how about the engine cooling off when idling (after reaching operating temp)? That's normal too huh?

 

[jimmy]

Letting an engine idle to warm up was something that sounded like a good idea 90 years ago. With cold natured manual choke gas engines it did let you avoid all the snorting and backfiring and stalling until it warmed up a bit.
Engines do not produce much heat idling becuase they don't burn much fuel and have no load when idled. Crankcase ventilation flow is low while at the same time the amount of unburned fuel is greater and condensation formation in crankcase is greatest.
Modern gasoline engines have multiplee strategies to speed warm up when run moderately right after you start them. Diesels have some injection timing changes to do the same and turbo control strategies if a control system is fitted.

Basically the engine is wearing out when running so why is it run when it doesn't move the vehicle?

 

[Azrael15]

I have a 2012 6.7 with none of the issues you describe. I live in severely cold climate of Fairbanks Ak, it has been -10 or colder for the last 3 months. I plug my truck in at night. ( block heater, engine oil, and transmission oil heater) and use a winter front. I autostart in the am, idle for 10 min and then drive to work, in about 5 min my truck is over 120, and the vents are blowing good heat. It does take a bit to warm up to operating temp but it will get there after about 25-30 min of driving. I think the winter front helps a lot with that. As a part of another thread I'm going to do some tests next week when the temps are supposed to drop to the -30 to -50 range and record actual temps. I'll let you know what I find.

As far as your issues, I would start with the thermostats, and then check for air in the system.


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[Nobodyhearsyou]

Hey Azrael15. Thanks for the info. I used to live in Fairbanks too. That's why I was surprised that my truck would have problems down here in Homer. I don't actual know if mine has problems or not. I drove mine in town today and it got up to 150 degrees after driving for 15 minutes. Then I took it on the highway, and it got up to 190 in about 5-10 minutes. The temps don't seem that far off from yours.

According to your post, it got to 120 degrees after about 15 minutes (10 idle, and 5 driving right?) What surprises me, is that you said it was blowing out warm air. I would think that at an EOT of 120, the heater would barely be putting out enough warm air to keep the windows defrosted. Of course, in Fairbanks, any warmth at all is better then what is outside the cab!

Anyways, does your truck lose heat if you park it and let it idle. For example, you drive it to Freddies, park it, let it idle, and go shopping. You come back 30 minutes later. Is the cab still nice and toasty? Is your engine temp still over 180? Or did it drop back down to 150 or 160? Please let me know! This is driving me crazy.

Also, test something for me would yuh, while it is in park at idle, check the heat coming out of the vent. Then, (while the engine is still the same temp) rev it up to 1500+ rpms, and check the heat while holding said rpms. Notice a difference? I can tell the difference with just my hand, by at least 20 degrees or more. I have a temperature probe coming, so I will get some real numbers.

It may be normal for this truck, but I kinda think that would be a dumb design. My truck puts out quite a bit more heat at higher rpms, even with the same engine/coolant temp.

 

[lincster]

Hey Azrael15. Thanks for the info. I used to live in Fairbanks too. That's why I was surprised that my truck would have problems down here in Homer. I don't actual know if mine has problems or not. I drove mine in town today and it got up to 150 degrees after driving for 15 minutes. Then I took it on the highway, and it got up to 190 in about 5-10 minutes. The temps don't seem that far off from yours.

According to your post, it got to 120 degrees after about 15 minutes (10 idle, and 5 driving right?) What surprises me, is that you said it was blowing out warm air. I would think that at an EOT of 120, the heater would barely be putting out enough warm air to keep the windows defrosted. Of course, in Fairbanks, any warmth at all is better then what is outside the cab!

Anyways, does your truck lose heat if you park it and let it idle. For example, you drive it to Freddies, park it, let it idle, and go shopping. You come back 30 minutes later. Is the cab still nice and toasty? Is your engine temp still over 180? Or did it drop back down to 150 or 160? Please let me know! This is driving me crazy.

Also, test something for me would yuh, while it is in park at idle, check the heat coming out of the vent. Then, (while the engine is still the same temp) rev it up to 1500+ rpms, and check the heat while holding said rpms. Notice a difference? I can tell the difference with just my hand, by at least 20 degrees or more. I have a temperature probe coming, so I will get some real numbers.

It may be normal for this truck, but I kinda think that would be a dumb design. My truck puts out quite a bit more heat at higher rpms, even with the same engine/coolant temp.

How many more people do you need to tell you that idling these trucks for long periods of time in the cold is not good for it, before you stop doing it?
Or am I beating a dead horse?

 

[Azrael15]

How many more people do you need to tell you that idling these trucks for long periods of time in the cold is not good for it, before you stop doing it?
Or am I beating a dead horse?

I agree, I don't leave my truck running longer than running into the gas station and back. Shut it down and fire it back up if it's longer than a few mins. The engine and transmission have enough mass that they stay warm for a few hrs. Idling these trucks will lead to fuel dilution of the oil, which obviously is not good, and will plug up your DPF quicker (if not deleted)

I think the warm air from the vents is relative. When my temp breaks 100, and it's -30 out side I would hope the air coming through the heater would feel warm. (Try using the recirculated button on the ac control.)

The high idle vs idle heat is caused by low coolant level, or air in the system. Maybe I missed it, but do you use a winter front? If you came from Fairbanks I would assume you have one cause it gets just a wee bit nippy. I've attached a pic of my pid read out. Yesterday, truck was plugged in all night, and you can see the temps. The block heater, engine and trans heaters all on.

 

[MPD56]

Interesting thing is that yesterday on TV I saw 6.7L trucks with grill covers used in Alaska. IT reminders me that my 6.4L came with a grill cover. It wasn't really to keep the engine temps up, it was so the air filter didn't get packed with snow.

Where I work we have a fleet of diesel engines and idling any engine is not good for them. The hardest thing on them or any engine is the cold starting. The debate around here doesn't last long because we order 6.7L with plow packages and plows, the last 30 days haven't been above 32 degrees. Some of the trucks here haven't be shut off for weeks and are over 10 years old and never seen highway speed. The answer to the debate is that idling is bad for any engine and get back to work and be safe.

The cab auto climate control in these truck's are controlled by a process of "proportional-integral-derivative" controllers (PID Controller). Tuning or creating a program to control the set point temperature in a cab of these trucks at a very cold or high temperature are a lot harder. I simply find that I have to put the climate control on manual till the engine and cab get up to temperature. Even to keep the windshield defrosted I have to manually turn up the temperature manually because the auto temperature mode set point seems to be in both modes?

 

[Azrael15]

Ok, so I did some testing today, it wasn't as cold as yesterday but still -15F. I'll do this in several posts. Here we go:

Fist start truck was plugged in for 8 hrs.

Then 2 min later

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[Azrael15]

Two more minutes of idling:

Then at the 10 minute mark finally got the truck cleaned off from the fresh batch of white S&@t to fall. I should add here that warmer air was coming from the vents as the ice/snow started melting off the windows. Started driving.

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