[Graupp]

Ever since they reduced sulfur content of diesel fuel back in 2005 [?] or so
I've been running with a fuel additive mixture of Power Service and 2 cycle oil...
I buy a gallon of 2 cycle from Walmart, and 1 Qrt. of Power Service, and mix them at a ratio of
approx. 6-7 oz. of Power Service to approx. 26 oz. of 2 cycle oil...
I add a quart to the diesel fill up every time I get a 1/2 a tank or more in a 44 gal. tank...
I've been doing that now for over 150K/miles, and the truck seems to be running pretty good with 262K/miles on it
The question I have, is that I'm still on the original factory injectors, and just wanting to know
what you think I can expect now, for my remaining fuel injector life...
I change oil every 3500-5000 miles so I do try and keep the oil clean also...
Any comments would be appreciated
Thanking you in advance
Tony

 

[losfinch]

I add the 2 cycle oil about every tenth fill up since I can't get ahold of it that often down here. My truck has 315,000 on the original injectors and HPOP and seems to be as strong as when I first got it at 90,000. I plan on continuing to do it with the hope of continuing the good success that the engine is having.

 

[NYB]

Why do you guys use "2 stroke" oil for injector lubrication?

Why not 4 stroke oil, or transmission oil, or mineral oil, or canola oil, or Oil of Olay?

What specifically is it about 2 stroke oil that appeals to you for your homemade fuel lubricity "additive"?

Obviously I'm being facetious about the other oil alternatives I mentioned above, but in all seriousness, if injector life is the principle concern, and if you do not trust the lubricity of pump diesel... why not use a lubricity additive formulated for the purpose?

All the forum posts in the world about what people put in their tanks, and how long their injectors lasted as a result... amounts to dubious anecdotal speculation. Outside of a laboratory controlled comparative environment, using some semblance of scientific method, it is not possible to determine what benefit, or detriment, that adding 2 cycle oil to the fuel does to increase or curtail injector life.

An energy company in South Africa decided to put 2 cycle oil laced fuel to a test in a laboratory environment, just to try and apply some measurable data and science to all the anecdotal feel good claims that people make. The link to this report is below, but here is a summary of a few key points:

• The results of the study support a view that the practice of dosing diesel with 2-stroke oil is surprisingly ineffective in terms of lubricity and cetane improvements.
• Engine performance, fuel consumption and emissions were unchanged.
• Trace amounts of zinc, an element which is found in most 2-stroke oils, are well known to cause injector nozzle fouling.
• The study measured high levels of injector fouling when the test engine was running on diesel dosed with 2-stroke oil.
• The use of 2-stroke oil in diesel is potentially harmful to modern diesel injection equipment.

Based on the results of the study, the following conclusions are drawn:

• At a 200:1 volumetric blending ratio, 2-stroke oil has a negligible effect on diesel lubricity.
• At a 200:1 volumetric blending ratio, 2-stroke oil has a negligible effect on diesel cetane number.
• No measurable effect on all other regulated diesel properties was measured at a 200:1 dose of 2-stroke oil in diesel.
• 2-stroke oil can contain around 16ppm zinc, or higher depending on the formulation and batch.
• Trace amounts of zinc in diesel are known to rapidly accelerate injector nozzle deposits.
• Engine test results show that a 200:1 blend of 2-stroke oil in diesel results in a 2% loss of engine power in a 16 hour test due to injector fouling, a risk that would apply to any common rail diesel engine, but could also worsen fouling in older engines.
• Vehicles fitted with a diesel particulate filter (DPF) in the exhaust system could experience reduced DPF life due to the collection of ash and metal based contaminants in the filter over time with the continued use of 2-stroke oil.

And here is the link to the full study:

2-Stroke Oil In Diesel ? A Technical Study






.

 

[Graupp]

Amazing !!!
I wonder what brought them to decide to do such an elaborate test???
Did they read my posting here ???
Why did the decide to pick 2 cycle oil, instead of 4 cycle or anything else [ATF]. ???

 

[blue99stroker]

atleast 2 stroke oil is meant to be burned.

most of the issue appear to affect common rails and we don't have dpfs to worry about.

If used in concentration that most of us do it adds 70 ppm of lubrication.

Most people add it cause it's cheap .

I'll find the test they did in Europe that shows fuel economy increase. And some positives.

And from what I understand the injector nozzles usually last 400-500k miles.

Injectors are replaced because of poppet valve wear long before that.

 

[Justus]

I would like to see any test results that show results from 2 stroke oil.

 

[Jimbo40]

Amazing !!!
I wonder what brought them to decide to do such an elaborate test???
Did they read my posting here ???
Why did the decide to pick 2 cycle oil, instead of 4 cycle or anything else [ATF]. ???

2 stroke is made to run through the combustion process. engine,trans. oil etc tries to resist burning.
Modern 2 stroke is oil injected independently and not run through injectors. It is mixed with gas when some carborated engines are used such as weed wacker and snow blowers.
The the jetting of the carb is adjusted to make up for the fuel that is displaced by the oil. Too much oil and you can lean burn a 2 stroke engine. that why the engine has a mix ratio on it.
Mixing 2 stroke with Diesel seems like a bad idea since much of the oil does not burn fully. 2 stroke exhausts are super dirty because of that oil residue. Turbo's, DPF and other exhaust components will not like 2 stroke residue hanging all over them. I prefer to stay clean and use an additive made for diesel.

Sound Like a great idea, but it's not!

 

[Justus]

2 stroke is made to run through the combustion process. engine,trans. oil etc tries to resist burning.
Modern 2 stroke is oil injected independently and not run through injectors. It is mixed with gas when some carborated engines are used such as weed wacker and snow blowers.
The the jetting of the carb is adjusted to make up for the fuel that is displaced by the oil. Too much oil and you can lean burn a 2 stroke engine. that why the engine has a mix ratio on it.
Mixing 2 stroke with Diesel seems like a bad idea since much of the oil does not burn fully. 2 stroke exhausts are super dirty because of that oil residue. Turbo's, DPF and other exhaust components will not like 2 stroke residue hanging all over them. I prefer to stay clean and use an additive made for diesel.

Sound Like a great idea, but it's not!

Very good point, I am testing Archoil as soon as it gets here.

 

[Reactor]

My 2c from the lab

I've been running with a fuel additive mixture of Power Service and 2 cycle oil...
I buy a gallon of 2 cycle from Walmart, and 1 Qrt. of Power Service, and mix them at a ratio of
approx. 6-7 oz. of Power Service to approx. 26 oz. of 2 cycle oil...
I add a quart to the diesel fill up every time I get a 1/2 a tank or more in a 44 gal. tank...
I've been doing that now for over 150K/miles, and the truck seems to be running pretty good with 262K/miles on it
The question I have, is that I'm still on the original factory injectors, and just wanting to know
what you think I can expect now, for my remaining fuel injector life...Any comments would be appreciated
Thanking you in advance
Tony

Tony, although you are not experiencing issues currently, I would advise against adding oil to your fuel, even 2-stroke. The truck is designed with diesel fuel to be burned in mind. Especially if this truck is your "baby" its not worth taking the potential I'm sure you have seen others mentioning the possible issues it may cause. Power Service as an additive has been shown to increase lubricity in operating injectors during lab testing. However, running bio-diesel even with as little as 2% has also been shown to significantly increase lubricity in injectors and probably costs less than Power Service. Unfortunately that's all that power service has been shown to do as a benefit when testing it's treated diesel fuel. It does not have any cleaning agents even though they claim to do so but it does boost cetane, so if your happy keep using it. Your 1qt of 2 stroke oil in 22 gal of fuel is 1:88 essentially 1:100 (1%) and probably wont hinder your operation to speak of. Your 6oz of Power Service in 22gal is 1:500 so your treat ratio is high for a half tank so fill'er up! :winking:

Why do you guys use "2 stroke" oil for injector lubrication?

Why not 4 stroke oil, or transmission oil, or mineral oil, or canola oil, or Oil of Olay?

What specifically is it about 2 stroke oil that appeals to you for your homemade fuel lubricity "additive"?

Obviously I'm being facetious about the other oil alternatives I mentioned above, but in all seriousness, if injector life is the principle concern, and if you do not trust the lubricity of pump diesel... why not use a lubricity additive formulated for the purpose?

All the forum posts in the world about what people put in their tanks, and how long their injectors lasted as a result... amounts to dubious anecdotal speculation. Outside of a laboratory controlled comparative environment, using some semblance of scientific method, it is not possible to determine what benefit, or detriment, that adding 2 cycle oil to the fuel does to increase or curtail injector life.

An energy company in South Africa decided to put 2 cycle oil laced fuel to a test in a laboratory environment, just to try and apply some measurable data and science to all the anecdotal feel good claims that people make. The link to this report is below, but here is a summary of a few key points:

• The results of the study support a view that the practice of dosing diesel with 2-stroke oil is surprisingly ineffective in terms of lubricity and cetane improvements.
• Engine performance, fuel consumption and emissions were unchanged.
• Trace amounts of zinc, an element which is found in most 2-stroke oils, are well known to cause injector nozzle fouling.
• The study measured high levels of injector fouling when the test engine was running on diesel dosed with 2-stroke oil.
• The use of 2-stroke oil in diesel is potentially harmful to modern diesel injection equipment.

Based on the results of the study, the following conclusions are drawn:

• At a 200:1 volumetric blending ratio, 2-stroke oil has a negligible effect on diesel lubricity.
• At a 200:1 volumetric blending ratio, 2-stroke oil has a negligible effect on diesel cetane number.
• No measurable effect on all other regulated diesel properties was measured at a 200:1 dose of 2-stroke oil in diesel.
• 2-stroke oil can contain around 16ppm zinc, or higher depending on the formulation and batch.
• Trace amounts of zinc in diesel are known to rapidly accelerate injector nozzle deposits.
• Engine test results show that a 200:1 blend of 2-stroke oil in diesel results in a 2% loss of engine power in a 16 hour test due to injector fouling, a risk that would apply to any common rail diesel engine, but could also worsen fouling in older engines.
• Vehicles fitted with a diesel particulate filter (DPF) in the exhaust system could experience reduced DPF life due to the collection of ash and metal based contaminants in the filter over time with the continued use of 2-stroke oil.

And here is the link to the full study:


.

Thank you for finding that study NYB!
IF YOU RUN A DPF SYSTEM ON YOUR TRUCK DO NOT PUT 4 STROKE ENGINE OIL/ATF/EXC. IN YOUR FUEL! These fluids contain metal lubricant and anti-wear, anti-friction additives that contain....ASH! ASH DOES NOT BURN! IT COLLECTS IN YOUR DPF SYSTEM AND STAYS!
I agree with the supported results from the study, 2 stroke oil may burn ashless and may not hinder the operation, but at 200:1 it also cannot provide any benefit and probably wont at higher treat ratios.
I agree that its negligible, I agree that outside of a lab setting its tough to provide sound proof and reasoning. (Glad I get to work in an automotive petroleum lab).
The oleic/canola oil add is actually not too far off base when you consider bio-diesel and what it is comprised of :winking:

Amazing !!!
I wonder what brought them to decide to do such an elaborate test???
Did they read my posting here ???
Why did the decide to pick 2 cycle oil, instead of 4 cycle or anything else [ATF]. ???

Gruapp, they probably picked it because that is what was "trending" at the time, see above for reasons why not to use 4cycle or ATF.

atleast 2 stroke oil is meant to be burned.

most of the issue appear to affect common rails and we don't have dpfs to worry about.

If used in concentration that most of us do it adds 70 ppm of lubrication.

Most people add it cause it's cheap .

I'll find the test they did in Europe that shows fuel economy increase. And some positives.

And from what I understand the injector nozzles usually last 400-500k miles.

Injectors are replaced because of poppet valve wear long before that.

Blue, agreed, glad to be DPF-free, can I get an Amen?! For the OP he is adding 26 oz to 44 gallon then yes he is at the 70ppm mark, but any less fuel bumps it up. And that's 70ppm of 2 stroke oil that doesn't necessarily mean it adds lubrication once it hits the injector at X-hundreds of psi as it may act differently outside its standard operating pressure (outside in 2 stroke applications). Agreed, most people do it because its cheap, essentially cheap fuel. #1 failure of high pressure diesel injectors is the needle and seat if that's what you are referring to. -ask BOSCH/Motorcraft

2 stroke is made to run through the combustion process. engine,trans. oil etc tries to resist burning.
Modern 2 stroke is oil injected independently and not run through injectors. It is mixed with gas when some carborated engines are used such as weed wacker and snow blowers.
The the jetting of the carb is adjusted to make up for the fuel that is displaced by the oil. Too much oil and you can lean burn a 2 stroke engine. that why the engine has a mix ratio on it.
Mixing 2 stroke with Diesel seems like a bad idea since much of the oil does not burn fully. 2 stroke exhausts are super dirty because of that oil residue. Turbo's, DPF and other exhaust components will not like 2 stroke residue hanging all over them. I prefer to stay clean and use an additive made for diesel.
Sound Like a great idea, but it's not!

Agreed!



Justus, you may find that Arch oil alleviates and prevents stiction in your injectors as it does indeed increase lubricity but will not protect metal components from oxidation or corrosion. Its performance also significantly drops off in HPCR systems found in newer diesel applications. (5,000-30,000psi)

 

[Justus]

I do not have any issues with stiction, but thanks for the info Reactor.

 

[Graupp]

Greetings Reactor;
No doubt you have made some very good points,,,, BUT...
Like I said, I've been running it for like 12 yrs [?] and more than 150,000 miles [?] now ..
And it doesn't seem to have hurt the engine any that I know of yet....
I was initially expecting someone to say how good the stuff actually was, and how long my injectors might be last using it..
Instead I got an opposite reaction...
'Blue' did comment that injectors should last 400-500K miles...
So thats' encouraging...
I have read somewhere that there are fuel injected 2 cycle engines in the works...
So I wonder how that would all play out using injectors with the 2 cycle oil...
So, I would guess NOW, my question would be...
Having used the 2 cycle oil in my fuel for the last 12yrs & 150K/m, how long will my injectors actually last ???

 

[Reactor]

Greetings Reactor;
No doubt you have made some very good points,,,, BUT...
Like I said, I've been running it for like 12 yrs [?] and more than 150,000 miles [?] now ..
And it doesn't seem to have hurt the engine any that I know of yet....
I was initially expecting someone to say how good the stuff actually was, and how long my injectors might be last using it..
Instead I got an opposite reaction...
'Blue' did comment that injectors should last 400-500K miles...
So thats' encouraging...
I have read somewhere that there are fuel injected 2 cycle engines in the works...
So I wonder how that would all play out using injectors with the 2 cycle oil...
So, I would guess NOW, my question would be...
Having used the 2 cycle oil in my fuel for the last 12yrs & 150K/m, how long will my injectors actually last ???

Sometimes you have to play devil's advocate to make you think about it in a different light, would you agree?
2 stroke oil at a 1% treat ratio probably won't hurt your engine, absolutely true, but its also highly unlikely that you would GET, and even much less SEE a benefit at this 1%.
If you've only added 150k miles in 12 years, I would think that it would be your baby yes/no? I'm not gonna put 2 stroke oil in my baby's fuel.
If you like it, if it works for you, great no harm no foul. But I am gonna default to the study done by SAIT Tribology in 2015 posted previously by NYB that there is not a significant BENEFIT to using 2 stroke oil in your diesel.
Hey who knows you may go over the 4-500k mark and prove us wrong, but 1% is not much to go by.

 

[RT]

So - how many of you actually read the South African study? Anyone know what belts and braces means - I do, just checking if any of you young-uns do.

This study flies in the face of the Spicer study. Of course, if you look at the results, there were some substatistical improvements to the lubricity, but not to the level that would justify its use - IN SOUTH AFRICAN fuel. Those of us that have followed this already know that their fuel meets higher levels of lubricity than American fuel. Even the Bosch studies showed that. It's one reason the common rail pumps do ok in Europe and disintegrate over here. Still, no one that I know recommends using 2 stroke oil in a common rail diesel. This forum (the 7.3 forum) deals with HEUI injection systems. No DEF filters to worry about here.

Read the Spicer study and then make your conclusions. I use one quart per fill up and nothing I read in the SA study changes my mind.

View attachment Spicerstudy.pdf

 

[greenskeeper79]

i've been adding 2 cycle to the fuel at 1oz/gallon for over 100k miles on my 97 since they went to ULSD.

The spicer study only makes me feel more comfortable about using it.

 

[Graupp]

Well gentleman, after reading all of your posting and both of the noted reports, I've decided to stay with what
I've been doing for the last 12 years...The Spicer report was VERY convincing for me, as it noted both the products I am currently using as my diesel fuel additive...
Supertech TC-3W 2 cycle oil , and Power Service...
Bottom line ...it is not cheap though...
A quart of Power Service at Walmart runs approx. $8.00 and the 2 cycle oil is approx. $13 for a gallon...
5 qrts runs approx $22 = approx. $4.50/qrt....for a 30 gal fill..
It adds 15 cents a gallon to my cost...

 

[bigb]

Is anyone using Opti=Lube?

 

[rv6a]

My injectors have 310,000 miles on them. No additive except what the fuel outlets add in the winter. Still running strong.

 

[Reactor]

So - how many of you actually read the South African study? Anyone know what belts and braces means - I do, just checking if any of you young-uns do.

This study flies in the face of the Spicer study. Of course, if you look at the results, there were some substatistical improvements to the lubricity, but not to the level that would justify its use - IN SOUTH AFRICAN fuel. Those of us that have followed this already know that their fuel meets higher levels of lubricity than American fuel. Even the Bosch studies showed that. It's one reason the common rail pumps do ok in Europe and disintegrate over here. Still, no one that I know recommends using 2 stroke oil in a common rail diesel. This forum (the 7.3 forum) deals with HEUI injection systems. No DEF filters to worry about here.

Read the Spicer study and then make your conclusions. I use one quart per fill up and nothing I read in the SA study changes my mind.

View attachment 104897

This study supports my previous statements of bio-based diesel significantly improving lubricity even at 2%. Their 2% bio-diesel was at 50:1 treat ratio which would lower the bio content further.

 

[NYB]

My injectors have 310,000 miles on them. No additive except what the fuel outlets add in the winter. Still running strong.

My point exactly.

Furthermore, I've never popped a valve cover in the 17 years I've owned the truck to service or even look at the injectors, which are all original, as installed in 1999. Is that due to the fact that I've only used the Ford /International /Caterpillar recommended diesel fuel additives exclusively?

I'd be kidding myself if I thought so. I don't think there is a way to know in a single instance anecdotally.

Scientifically, however, it has been demonstrably proven that diesel fuel can chemically interact with some of the substances contained in alternative additives that people pour into their tanks, with potentially deleterious, but not necessarily sudden nor catastrophic, effects on the injectors. Trusting that science, I'll stick with only using the additives that are recommended by the injector manufacturer.


.

 

[Phillippeterson]

I have a new F450 on order. I'm going to "run what I brung", i.e. - no additives and no delete.

I've had three F350 diesels and never put anything in the tank but the diesel from the pump. Ran each for almost 200,000 miles with no trouble. Had a main seal bearing go out on a 1997 7.3 at 99,000 miles - warranty covered it.

I've seen (uh oh, here I go "anecdotally") plenty of diesels run a long, long time with no additives.