[spyder4x4er]

I just ordered an E350 PSD and was on Fords site looking at spec's...

Can anyone enlighten me as to why
the E Series states 235 Hp and 440 ft-lbs of torque
and the
F series shows 325 HP and 570 ft-lbs of torque

All other spec's are the same.... is the E Series de-tuned for some reason

Thanks in advance... this really is such a great data base for info...

 

[racerman_27410]

yes the van is detuned due to the way the engine is "packed" in the vans. It is very tight in and around the engine and therfore doesnt have a lot of extra cooling air flow to support the extra heat increased HP/Torgue bring to the table.

in simpler terms there isnt enough room for a mouse to fart in there

If i am not mistaken the tune used in the vans is the original from the engine manufacturer so i think we may get improved longeviety than the trucks which are running Ford's "hopped up" stock tune.

there is still plenty of power for towing and i am very happy with the performance of my van in all other areas including mileage.


Frank

 

[BlizzardVan]

Most Vans are destined for a life of commercial service, hauling product or people. They are also not capable of toeing fifth wheel type trailers; super heavy loads are unlikely . Ford is just erring to the side of longevity, something vastly more important to the fleet customer. That is why 6.0 vans with the intercooler still have less aggressive programming. The programmers that have looked at a 7.3 IQW1 see much less aggressive fuel/timing maps on that PCM, I am assuming the 6.0 is the same. If you are going to hop up your van the programming is key, maybe contact Jody at DP-tunes. There are a few on this site that have been happy with his work.

 

[dansk]

I don't think that it is just the programming for the van engine. If you look here http://www.rebuiltdieselengines.com/ford-di.html, you will note that there is a difference with part numbers when ordering a rebuild for the F and the E series. I have emailed this company to get info on the diference, but no reply as to the difference. If it's the PCM, then couldn't we just get one off of an F-series and boost our hp that way? I think that there is more to it than the PCM. The new 6.0 has an intercooler and still puts out about 100 hp less. Would love to know what the whole difference is.
Dann

 

[yaric008]

Well i'm sure there are some small differences just like on the IDI van and pickup, slightly different oil cooler and mounting brackets, just to account for the smaller space. But i doubt anything really important is that much different.

 

[BlizzardVan]

I've tried swapping a pcm from a truck. The PCM also controls the gauges, shifting and othe functions on the van or truck, didn't work. Also had some one lay truck programming over my chip and the shifting was off. The DPC code difference causes this I think. From what I've gathered putting custom fuel maps over the van program is the answer. Hope to find out this week.

 

[dansk]

Ok, aside from the gauges and shifting, did the engine produce more power with the truck PCM?
Dann

 

[BlizzardVan]

I never found out because the shifting wasn't correct. I didn't run it. When Ford gives HP/tq numbers are those at the wheels? If so, the other difference in the van could be the transmission programming?

 

[dansk]

I hope we can keep this post going. A million questions as to the difference in F and E. Let's start with the PCM. What is the difference between the F and E as far as to what the PCM controls? I know the F has a tach, we don't. What else? Are we running the same tranny as the F series? I'm talking about automatics only. Are there other sensors on the F series that we don't have? I'm just trying to figure out why the F PCM won't work on our vans.
I would be interesting to obtain a complete parts list for the F and E series engine for the same year. I'm talking about part numbers. Are they all the same? I'm more interested in the internal parts like the valves, cam, etc. If they are the same, we have to look at the PCM.
Bottom line is that we need to find out what exactly the difference is, make adjustments, and then start to do our mods with chips etc. I would like to harness the 100hp that we are lacking first, then modify with chip to bring our hp up to the trucks potential.
Just my two cents. Hope more chime in here and we can get on the right track. I'm not buying tight quarters of our engine and the lack of cooling issue. If I purchased an F series engine and dropped her in along with an F series PCM, what will I end up with? I'm thinking a lot of power.
Dann

 

[Larry M]

[ QUOTE ]
I hope we can keep this post going. A million questions as to the difference in F and E. Let's start with the PCM. What is the difference between the F and E as far as to what the PCM controls? I know the F has a tach, we don't. What else? Are we running the same tranny as the F series? I'm talking about automatics only. Are there other sensors on the F series that we don't have? I'm just trying to figure out why the F PCM won't work on our vans.
I would be interesting to obtain a complete parts list for the F and E series engine for the same year. I'm talking about part numbers. Are they all the same? I'm more interested in the internal parts like the valves, cam, etc. If they are the same, we have to look at the PCM.
Bottom line is that we need to find out what exactly the difference is, make adjustments, and then start to do our mods with chips etc. I would like to harness the 100hp that we are lacking first, then modify with chip to bring our hp up to the trucks potential.
Just my two cents. Hope more chime in here and we can get on the right track.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since you're talking the 6.0L version you might have a somewhat difficult time accomplishing what you're looking at since most of us with some Van experience have the 7.3L.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not buying tight quarters of our engine and the lack of cooling issue. If I purchased an F series engine and dropped her in along with an F series PCM, what will I end up with? I'm thinking a lot of power.
Dann

[/ QUOTE ]

Well buy it or not I've actually seen both pics and in person both versions and the 6.0L in the Van is even tighter than the F-series ... Space is at a premium in the E-series engine compartment. On the 7.3L version there was no room for an intercooler and we even have a slightly different oil cooler probably due to space constraints. Also, on the 7.3L version one of the two batteries had to be mounted on the frame rail due to space contraints. On the 6.0L they did manage to get an intercooler on them, but I think it is smaller than the F-series IIRC and again because of space contraints they had to move "BOTH" batteries down to the frame rail. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Also, on the 6.0L E-series they even had to move the engine oil filter down below <font color="red"> LOOK HERE</font> which shows the FCM, oil filter, and tranny filter on the 6.0L engine. Notice the oil filter is upside down which makes for a mess when changing that filter element. I understand the fuel filter on the 6.0L engine is somewhere buried up in the engine compartment, but I think we've lost several search parties in trying to locate and gain access to it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif For those that have never seen a PSD E-series below are a few pic of the 7.3 and 6.0 configurations. I can actually get at quite a bit of my engine after removing some interference, but I would cringe at attempting that looking at the 6.0L doghouse view. Look closely at the below pics and the difference in the space on each side and above on the two engines. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

I can tell you it does get hot in there. I've already ruined one air filter box due to heat warping the oval area <font color="red"> HERE</font> where it attaches to the rubber intake track back to the turbo. My second air box started to warp and I have now covered that area in header wrap to try and protect it better.

<font color="red">7.3L engine compartment</font>

<font color="red">7.3L engine compartment</font>

<font color="red">7.3L doghouse view</font>

<font color="red">6.0L engine compartment</font>

<font color="red">6.0L doghouse view</font>


Larry, keeper of the <font color="red"> New revised </font><font color="blue">"little secrets" </font> CLICK HEREhttp://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubb...73329&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=31&fpart=1 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[msnunes]

This may be overly simplistiic, but I would guess that F-series PCMs wouldn't work in a van for the same (or similar) reason that different van PCMs wouldn't work across all vans. There are probably dozens of different program versions in them based upon a number of different characteristics in each variation (and combinations) that have to be accounted for.

Obviously, we want to find out what those are, but I bet it has more to do with general programming than anything else (or programming that is based upon some obvious differences like "lack of an intercooler") -- since a chip can always seem to unleash the power that we all know is there. Vans are just retricted more than trucks from the start due to whatever different characteristics that demand it...

I think we need a Ford PCM programmer to explain the whys and what-fors.

 

[dansk]

Thanks Larry for all the pics. I know that our engines are tight sob's. The 7.3 and the 6.0 are both detuned. The 7.3 dosen't have an intercooler but the 6.0 does. Still we are quite short on the hp. From previous reading, an intercooler yields about 20 hp. Is that fair to say? So there is a little gain in that area. I don't think that I have ever had a cooling issue with my 7.3. Pulled quite heavy loads. Does anyone know if all the internal parts are the same? Are the cam, crank, valve specs. etc the same?
I know we have a turbo that the F guys would love to have. I know we can chip the PCM, install modified injectors, downpipe, exhaust and all, but that would bring us to F series level and not much more. I would love to get to F series level without all the mods first, and then we can start playing. Any PCM experts out there that can map the difference? There is so much I want to do to break new grounds with the van, many ideas. I would just like to find the 100 hp. first and go from there.
Dann

 

[BlizzardVan]

Our stock air intake is a huge obstacle when trying to get more out of a Van. Before I built the intake and airbox the previous mods, exhaust, turbo, water/meth, programming were never fully realized. The difference between a truck and van in stock air flow alone is probably a major reason the vans are detuned. Combined with no intercooler and intended fleet use we get lower numbers. I’m just speculating on this. I’m sure there is a Ford engineer on this site who could give us a definitive answer. The only solution is to start tweaking.

 

[2literturbo]

[ QUOTE ]
Can anyone enlighten me as to why
the E Series states 235 Hp and 440 ft-lbs of torque
and the
F series shows 325 HP and 570 ft-lbs of torque


[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't read the other responses to see if anyone has mentioned it, but the main reason the vans are not rated as high as the trucks is because there is no room to fit an intercooler in the van chassis. period. end of story.

Mike
ex-6.0 PSD turbo engineer

 

[dansk]

Mike, as you well know, the 6.0 has an intercooler. So not end of story. It still lacks in hp over the F series. I think BlizzarVan is right about the air intake though. With an intercooler and an airbox equivlent to the F series, would we see the 100 hp? I think it would help, but not completely. Where there is a will, there is a way to intercool and do a tymar type set up. One just has to think outside the box. I have some ideas to do it, and when I find the time I can fabricate anything I need. So it is just a matter of coming up with design. I would love to help anyone design a system that would perk our rigs up. Private PM me if you are interested. I still have the question as to whether or not our 7.3 are exactly the same as truck 7.3's. I'm talking about internally. Everyone can speculate, but that ain't getting us nowhere. Anyone able to search specific internal specs. between F and E series for the same year? It would be a great start.
Dann

 

[Clevelandjim]

If the Duramax van has better numbers or if mods increase the number easier, you'll see Ford cram more into that little engine box.

My 2 cents is the Ford PSD is detuned for engine longevity and because of the limited space and engine heat.

 

[DarthSurplus]

Here is a little light reading for you:

Previous coverage of this topic

On several occasions I have posted questions asking whether anybody knew of any internal mechanical differences, and I've gotten no responses.

 

[Larry M]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks Larry for all the pics. I know that our engines are tight sob's. The 7.3 and the 6.0 are both detuned. The 7.3 dosen't have an intercooler but the 6.0 does. Still we are quite short on the hp. From previous reading, an intercooler yields about 20 hp. Is that fair to say? So there is a little gain in that area. I don't think that I have ever had a cooling issue with my 7.3. Pulled quite heavy loads. Does anyone know if all the internal parts are the same? Are the cam, crank, valve specs. etc the same?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want to get this thread too far off topic since it's really about the 6.0L and there is a 90HP delta between the 6.0L in the E and F series for that engine however if you look at the 7.3L engine where the Van is rated at around 215HP the non intercooled 7.3L engines in the 94-97 F-series were only rated at 235HP. When Ford put out the SD with the intercooler included I think it started out at 235 and then went to 250 for the automatics. Only in the later year models did the manual only go to 275HP so a 99-03 F-series automatic was never rated for more than 250HP which is only 35HP more than the Van so the actual spread in the HP differences in the 7.3L engine is not the same as the 6.0L engine. I think the main limitation was the rating for the 4R100 in the torque area which is 1000 ft-lbs and that include the torque multiplication factor. Now I will limit the following comments/observations to the 7.3L based on what I think I've learned both in reading and personal experiences with my Van.

1. Internally (i.e. block and heads) I don't think there is any differences in the E and F series engines.

2. There are quite a few differences in the E and F series such as:

A. The Van doesn't have an intercooler
B. The Van has a different oil cooler and oil filter mount
C. The Van has a non wastegated different turbo and the up pipes I think are slightly different.
D. The Van has a completely different intake track including air filter and all the piping to the intake manifolds.
E. The PCM programs for the F-series have different programming and inputs, mainly from the fact that hey control boost via a waste gated turbo and I think they also measure CAC temp which is an input to the PCM. This makes the F-series total integrated programming different for the E series than the F series. Now we're just getting into the real programming with some of the recent work now being done by Jody in programming a PCM specifically aimed at the E-series, but I suspect the real results are several months away. I know this is the way I intend to go when things get a little more mature.

3. At least with the later Van intake systems like in my 01 that takes the air from the very front and is mainly a CAI type intake and with the two filters should easily support close 300HP at the Flywheel. Obviously, if your going to really mod things like Blizzard has then just like the F-series air is going to be a problem and is a much more involved mod than the F-series. I'm using the Amsoil foam air filters and I have no air problems even running the 60 or 80 HP programs on the SCMT 1700. However, running either and actually using the power in towing does create an EGT issue and even with my 3.5in DP and 4in back exhaust with the free flowing Magnaflow muffler and Aeroturbine, I'm still EGT limited for power, but did make more useable power and has slowed down the rate of the EGT rise.

4. The heat issue is not so much the engine cooling, but how hot the air around the engine is and what it does to things like our air intake, air ducting, wiring, and even the temp of the air going into the engine along with the boots on the compressor side of the turbo going into the manifold intakes.

5. While the comment on the 20HP gain from adding an intercooler might be true don't forget that it's not just the gain from that, but the ability to turn up the fuel more and still keep the EGTs within spec because of the lower air temp entering the engine. Now I might be wrong, but this lack of an intercooler (and again I might be wrong and next time I see both a 6.0L Van and Truck at a NOVAPS meeting I will try and look at both intercoolers, but I think the intercooler and piping in the 6.0L Van is smaller than what is on the F-series) is the major limiting factor in really upping the HP in the Vans. When you increase boost the temps of the air rise and w/o an intercooler things go from bad to worse.

Just some things to think about /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/warmsmile.gif


Larry, keeper of the <font color="red"> New revised </font><font color="blue">"little secrets" </font> CLICK HEREhttp://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubb...73329&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=31&fpart=1 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[yaric008]

And then there is always the Eric Theory.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Maybe Ford was like, hey, the F series sells alot more therefore we can afford to change it's design every few years, therefore, we'll max out the 6L to comply with only emission standards until 2007 then we'll change to the twin turbo 6.4L.

But for the E series they were like... well we don't sell as many by far therefore we need something that will comply with emission standards for longer, so they used the stock international PCM programming that puts out less emissions so in 2007 they wouldn't have to try to cram a 6.4L twin turbo PSD in the van and they'd still be able to compete by having a diesel van /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smokin.gif

 

[dansk]

Larry, you seem well knowledged on the powerstroke. I hope that we can not just keep this to the 6.0 but also include the 7.3. We have the same discrepancy.

1. Internally (i.e. block and heads) I don't think there is any differences in the E and F series engines.

Do we know for sure that there is no difference? Would love to rule it out.

B. The Van has a different oil cooler and oil filter mount

Oil filters and coolers don't make hp. I do think they contribute to longivety though and keep things a little cooler.

C. The Van has a non wastegated different turbo and the up pipes I think are slightly different.

Are the up pipes smaller or the same size as the F series or just a different configuration.

D. The Van has a completely different intake track including air filter and all the piping to the intake manifolds.

Is the piping from the turbo smaller in diameter or the same? Are the pipes connected to intake manifold in the same location?

4. The heat issue is not so much the engine cooling, but how hot the air around the engine is and what it does to things like our air intake, air ducting, wiring, and even the temp of the air going into the engine along with the boots on the compressor side of the turbo going into the manifold intakes.

I understand that our engines are tight, but there is air going through. Think of mid engine autos that rely strictly on a raditor in front. Many don't have air circulating around engine.

I hope we can take this one step at a time, starting with internal and working out to the bolt ons. If we can eliminate one thing, then we can concentrate on another until we get it.
We can all speculate on this and that, but what we need to do is find out for sure, not just speculate. Hopefully someone can look up internal specs. and eliminate that.
The cooling issue would be the last to tackle once we get the power we are lacking. By that, I mean the stock power of the truck, not chipped, no downpipe increase etc. Again, I hope we can include the 7.3 in this discussion.
Dann