[slingingomers]

City-owned vehicles in San Francisco, including fire engines, buses and even a mobile zoo, will use biodiesel fuel that reduces harmful emissions under an executive directive issued Thursday by Mayor Gavin Newsom.

The order calls on city departments that currently use diesel fuel in vehicles and equipment to switch to biodiesel fuel in 100 percent of their fleets by the end of 2007.

Biodiesel fuel is renewable, made from such products a soybean or cooking oil and typically can be used in existing diesel engines without requiring major modifications.

The San Francisco Fire Department announced a six-month pilot program Thursday to test the use of biodiesel fuel on nine engines, trucks and an ambulance. Other city departments that also have tested and use biodiesel in vehicles include San Francisco International Airport, Public Works and Muni, as well as San Francisco Zoo in its van service that brings animals to children around town

 

[UTAH]

In general, such actions by cities in California are considered bellweather indicators of what will be national trends. I'll not start an argument on whether that's good or bad - just pointing out what's probably coming down the road for the rest of us.

Bill

 

[Birken Vogt]

I know my boss will resist...we will use biodiesel if and when it makes economic sense on our bottom line and not before. Our mission is to protect life and property not to promote a trend that some politician thinks is worthwhile. Anything we do that costs us more money has an immediate effect on our ability to protect life and property....

Anyway there is a move afoot in the state legislature right now to allow us to use red dyed diesel instead. But at this point the percent of total cost saved is not very great from that. But anything is better than nothing

Birken

 

[Red Horse]

Birken, Your legislatures attempt to let you use "red diesel" is an economic issue vs an environmental issue. Dyed diesel is conventional diesel that is tax exempt. If the Feds catch a trucker with even pink fuel in his tank, he is in deep financial trouble. As for the bio issue, you are correct in that it is a political issue. Think about it, the most common blend is "B-20" which is 20% Bio (soy bean-whatever) with conventional diesel. The soybean oil moves by truck or best case by rail to a terminal where it is blended with diesel. The diesel gets to the terminal by pipeline or in the case of marine terminals, barge or ship. Think about those economics. Conventional diesel moves by economical modes of transport while the bio piece moves by very costly modes. It only works because of some kind of tax break that the hacks grant to encourage "Independence from foriegn oil". And as for winter use, I hope my "first responders" have conventional winterized diesel in their tanks.

Bio has a place- but at this point we don't really have the infrastructure in place to make it work. If you are 20 miles from the bio plant, its a great thing. If you are on the East Coast, and you rail the bio from Iowa, not a good thing.

 

[Birken Vogt]

Winterizing is no problem around here. All our apparatus are stored in buildings heated to around 55 degrees or so. Some of them that don't go out very much in the winter will always have more or less summer fuel in their tanks. Occasionally I have to let one sit out all night in the cold and it can be an interesting proposition to get it running in the morning sometimes /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Anyway the really annoying thing is we pay state sales tax on all our purchases, as well as the state takes a cut of the local revenue the citizens pay to us for fire protection. I would estimate at least 5%, maybe eve 10% of our annual revenue makes its way to the darn state. It's really frustrating trying to make ends meet

Birken

 

[dzl wannabe]

S.F. also wants to eliminate the U.S. Military (one councilman).

The whole state is so goofy I made my escape last summer.
3rd generation, but they managed to chase my out!

 

[Parrothead]

I've run at least B-20 (and often about B-50) in my '02 7.3L since it was about new. Four years of experience and over 70,000 miles with biodiesel.
I live in Colorado- It gets cold here.

One more time...After four years..I have NEVER had a gelling or starting problem problem running commercial ASTM-certified biodiesel in my truck. Down to 15F below zero.
It's parked outdoors all year and I almost never use fuel additives, either.

Biodiesel has a naturally high cetane rating. That means it ignites easily, a good thing in the cold. Your engine oil will be noticeably less black-goo sooty after the same number of miles. Engines run a lot quieter and smoother on the stuff. It helps keep your injectors clean.
I honestly don't like the way my truck runs and sounds on a lot of straight truck stop fuel out there. (If you wan't to talk about risking putting junk in your tank). THAT'S why I use it.

It's too bad that it also offers some environmental benefits ;-)

As long as you're running clean, properly made, certified biodiesel mixed with winterized diesel in the winter you won't have a problem.
I am not talking about garage-made homebrew fuel made from old restaurant oil, which can be of uncertain quality and should be viewed with caution. And I'm not suggesting that anyone try to use 100% biodiesel in the winter any more than trying to run straight #2. There's limitations to every fuel.

It really is time to put the speculation that biodiesel is somehow an inferior fuel to rest.

I wouldn't have any problem at all with the local VFD running B-20 in their trucks as long as they were properly maintained. If my truck starts 100% of the time, parked outdoors in any kind of weather, on the first spin around, then there's absolutely no reason for a fire truck to have a problem.

 

[Birken Vogt]

The trouble is, while some FDs have proactive maintenance programs, most are absolutely dismal. They don't do anything until it breaks. Some of the stuff I come across is downright scary.

Birken

 

[Gone Fishen]

The city is asking for trouble. I have cleaned out of enough junk and bad fuel to be a personally acquainted with it. Now keep in mind I have NOTHING against BIO. There I said it, Keep it in mind when you reply.
First of all the fire trucks and some emergency vehicles do not use all the fuel in the tanks. Like most of us do during a driving cycle. Emergency vehicles drive a little and set a lot. The fuel is topped off after each run. If you were to use most of the fuel then go for it. It just sits there and gets a fungus. Now I know you can get a fungus killer so don't even say that either. Fact: the fire trucks at the local airport did not respond on 2 tests 2 years ago. 3 2cycles and 1 cat. City locally had everyone of their trucks in our shop for injector replacement/filter change/fuel line flush/tuneup 2/3 years ago. City does not have 2cycle engines, just sereis 60 and several comaparts. County tried it in several stations and had poor response times and problems with the engines. series 60 and comaparts.
Now for the good news, the county has about 90% comaparts and several cats in the school district busses. All are running Bio. Now they have a different cycle and running time along with several long trips/driving daily. They have made it work.
Note: from our city fathers: all emergency vehicles will NOT use Bio. Mechanic's,city vehicles useing diesel will use Bio. Alternate fuels will be used an all other vehicles, cng,bio,maybe a hybred for all I know.
Bottom line: no Bio in emergency vehicles period. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

 

[Birken Vogt]

Seems like an extreme position but I guess that's what you get in government, I should know I work for them. I wonder what would happen if you were to start out all the new emergency vehicles you ordered on bio, if the dirt and fungus problems would show themselves in that case or not. From what I understand it is mainly the problem of the bio scrubbing the crud out of the old fuel systems and clogging the filters. We have some vehicles that are over 20 years old, I shudder to think what kind of crap lurks within them

Birken

 

[Gone Fishen]

All of the city's stuff is leased from Pierce. Their lease is up this year. All new equipment within 1 year was used on the bio stuff. Like I said, I personally believe that the application not the fuel is the problem. Think of it like this, how often does the fire truck run at an airport. This is an awful thought but same with some fire stations as well. My [maybe] future son-in-law works for the county and quit a station from shear boredom. He will retransfer there after the section gets built up. These is just my personal experience with this fuel. I try to keep an open mind when responding to a touchy subject like bio. Perple tend to say I am against bio, which I am not. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif