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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Well, its over, adios Ford. If any of you have read my previous posts you can tell I have loved both Ford and my 6.7, despite living thru hell a few years ago with my earlier 6.0. The love affair has cooled and we are parting ways. Oh the truck still looks great, runs fine, gets good mileage, and will pull an oak tree out by the roots, and it is also still under warranty, except apparently for the HPFP. So whats my problem? HPFP discussion with Ford dealership today confirms what I have been reading, that although the HFPF is technically still covered by the warranty, Ford will likely not honor that warranty if the HPFP fails, and the dealership is recommending that in the event it does fail, that I contact my insurance co at the same time I tow the truck in for repair.

According to the dealer, the reason Ford will usually not warranty the HPFP is that Ford has taken the default position that the only failure mode for the HPFP is fuel contamination at the fault of the owner, unless the damn pump just does something like comes loose inside the engine. Further it is clear that the DFCM does not protect the HPFP from suspended water in ULSD, even if you have never have water in the DCFM or have never had a "water in fuel" warning. And since you as the user cannot be sure you do not put fuel in your truck that is contaminated with suspended water, its really only a matter of time and chance until you have a HPFP failure.

So since the HPFP repair can cost up to about 25% of the cost of a new truck, its a little risky for me to just go by faith on Fords "Hope it doesnt fail and Change at your cost if if it does" route. So if the HPFP fails, this is the claim process as related by the dealership based on there experience with HPFP warranty claims to Ford.

1. tow the truck to the service dealer
2. authorize Ford to tear down the engine at my cost, which will be reimbursed if the HPFP is covered by warranty.
3. servicing dealer documents, photos, sends parts to Ford for warranty determination
4. somewhere between 30 to 90 days later Ford will most likely deny the warranty, which the dealership say has been the norm since Oct 2011.
5. In the mean time I have no truck, unless I authorize them to fix the truck at the time of teardown. Cost will range from $8k to $15k depending on whether injectors and other internal damage has occurred, and yes, I will still have the same HPFP concerns after the repair.

Why am I concerned if it will fail? After a lot of reading and discussing seems yes the HPFP does really fail, and the first tell tale sign is small aluminum specks in the DFCM. So I changed the fuel filters today and examined the DFCM in detail by cutting it apart and spreading out the pleats, and there there were, very small bright silver non-magnetic specks of metal, ie aluminum imbedded in the filter element.

So my logic is now, sell/trade the truck and avoid a probable $10k+ repair bill (just a matter of when it self destructs) and put that $10k toward a new truck that does not have the non warranty HPFP concern. That means either GM which actually does have the same HPFP failure issue but GM is covering it under warranty, or Dodge which does not have the HPFP problem.

For the record the tuck is a Job 1, purchased in May 2010 and has 60119 miles on it, almost all of it pulling a 8k lb trailer along the interstate from Louisiana thru Colorado and into Montana and Canada at 65-70 mph. Oil has been changed and filters replaced religiously, never had a drop of water come out of the DFCM, never had a "water in fuel warning", almost all fuel from Shell, Loves, etc. Absolutely no slime ever in DFCM, no dirt, grit, or anything else when filters changed. Ford diesel fuel additive has been used continuously since the truck was purchased. Also, at a cost of $3k is has an extended 6 year bumper to bumper Ford warranty.

Sorry bout this, I really do love the truck and accept the fact that the HPFP and other parts may fail, but at risk not to be honored by Ford when operated and maintained by the book while still under warranty? Nope not after spending $8k+ on my 6.0 two weeks out of warranty when the EGR cooler split. Fooled twice, shame on me.
 

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Unfortunately at this point you are not looking at just a pump because metal contamination from the pump means that the ENTIRE fuel system is contaminated and should be replaced.

Did the diagnosing dealership state "water contamination" as the cause and if so how did they make that determination? I know how they should have and could have, but I want to hear your answer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
The truck runs fine, dealer did not diagnose except the discussion of aluminum flakes in the DFCM most likely being sourced back to the HPFP, and that odds are slim to none that Ford will warranty HPFP anymore.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Ford Doc - by the way the DFCM filter media has been out on the bench all afternoon and the engine filter cut open and dry and there is no indication of DEF contamination, white stuff, crystals etc, just the aluminum particles in the DFCM media......nothing else in the fuel system has been disassembled. As I said, runs fine, just worried and not gonna take a big $ chance of Ford anymore.
 

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VW is having the same issues with CR TDI engines which have a Bosch CP-4 HPFP as well. A different variant than the one on the Ford trucks but a CP-4 non the less. VW was denying warranty repairs based on "contaminated fuel" only they claimed gas contamination. VW owners are a different breed and have been filing complaints with the NHTSA and there is an ongoing investigation regarding the subject. Here is a link to a thread about the subject (if this link is against forum policy, mods please delete)

NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation - TDIClub Forums

I own one of the affected vehicles and have been using an additive that I believe addresses lubricity and water management. Who knows if I am correct or not, but it makes me feel better to use it.

One more thing, since the NHSTA investigation picked up some steam, VW started covering the repairs under warranty... Strange coincidence don't you think?

The CP-3 pump found in the Dodge trucks have been fairly dependable and the one in my truck has over 170K miles on it. It is a much more expensive pump for the OEM's to buy though. Once again, the bean counters have won out over the engineers.....
 

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After needing a new motor only after 6 months and being told I will only have the remainder of my 100,000 mile warranty on a new motor now this news!! As soon as I get my truck back next week it is on the chopping block!!!
 

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I don't blame you guys...get a Chev. They are a solid truck. I haven't followed any of the postings on this issue since I haven't had any fuel issues but I will now. I will trade into a Chev as soon as I see signs as well.
Which filter does it show in? Engine mounted or the frame mounted?
 

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Help me on this one as I don't know the routing of fuel, but isn't the HPFP in line AFTER both filters? How are the chips getting in the filters? Is it the fuel return line to the tank?

Since VW owners have affected some kind of decent response by complaining to the NHTSB, shouldn't Ford owners with this same problem start writing those same complaints? Just a thought....

Another....on my elk hunting trip to Colorado this year, I stopped at a couple of Love stations on I-40 in Oklahoma, Texas and New Mexico. Didn't notice it at first, but their diesel is not pure diesel....it's biodiesel. The truck ran poorly (2 mpg less) on the Love's fuel, so I wouldn't stop there on the way back. Might the biodiesel be more prone to water in fuel?

MK160
 

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Very interesting topic here guys. Once my 07 6.0 is out of my 7 year warranty, I will be looking for a new truck. I love Ford, but this would make me want to buy a GM if this is not addressed by Ford. Will be interesting to see as these 2011 up trucks get some miles on them.

Bill
 

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so are the pumps just junk and going bad? i use powerservice in everytank just because it worked so well in my 97. do we need to voild the warranty and add the dieselsite $700.00 filter set-up to keep the pumps going ???
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
MK160 The HPFP is after both filters. The low pressure pump in the DFCM actually supplies about 3 times as much fuel as is needed for the engine to run, this to the engine mounted fuel filter then to the HPFP, the HPFP does pump this fuel and the extra 2/3 of the fuel is really used to cool the pump & components and returns via the return line. So the if the source of the wear particles is from HPFP wear, the extra fuel will contain the particles as it returns to the fuel system were it is sucked up again into the frame mounted filter DFCM as it is recycled. The DFCM which is a 10 micron filter easily blocks anything like visible wear particles, thus if they are in the fuel, they will show up as tiny aluminum specks, flakes, etc embedded into the filter media. The engine mounted filter is a 4 micron filter, so even if smaller particles do pass the frame mounted filter they will be trapped in the final filter. The HPFP is protected really well from particulate damage, and anything like wear particles, sand, rust etc will be effectively first seen in the frame mounted filter pleats. LOL, I just wish to hell someone would identify an alternate source of aluminum other than the HPFP! Damn great truck otherwise.....:(
 

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We will be loading up more detailed pictures and information on the site soon.

The issue is not so much aluminum wear particles as much as rust. Rust is the first and only sign they need to see. This rust causes galling in the pump, which causes metal wear. So, long before the engine stalls and all is obviously destroyed, the damage is already done.

This happened to my personal truck at approximately 20k miles. The truck was running great. I filled the tank and within 10 miles, I got a WIF light, so I stopped the truck, drained the fuel, and went on. 10 miles later, the WIF light came on again. I again, stopped on the side of the road and drained the water. The next morning I had an SES light on. I drove the truck to the dealership and was informed that they were required to check for codes (WIF) and the SES light was for HPFP. Then they were required to pull the flow control valve. If there was any rust on the valve, NO WARRANTY. Needless to say, I had rust.

This was at a Ford dealership that we buy all our vehicles from and do all our Ford parts from. These were friends of ours. Their hands are tied. Ford supplies them with pictures (these will be on our site soon), and says if it looks like this, do not submit for warranty.


Bob
 

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Maybe you should buy the new Ram that is set up to run on CNG. It is the first heavy pickup with CNG as a factory option. I know here in Utah CNG is $1.48 a gallon equvialant. Thats 63% cheaper than diesel.

And they have built a brand new fueling station between my house and the Interstate on ramp and the state of Utah is partnering with companies to put up 23 more stations this year across the state. So it is getting fairly convienant to find a fill station.

We still have not seen a large failure rate for this part. We are now starting to see trucks reaching the 100,000 mile milestone. If it's a wear problem, it should start to become more visable as more of them fail. Even the owners that post on here that have the heavy mileage are not seeing HPFP failures. Yes they have had a couple of engine failures at 125,000 to 150,000 miles that concern me, but they were valve or piston failures not HPFP.

Another year and we should have a better idea if this is a lurking nightmare.
 

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"lurking nighmare"
This is an interesting way of stating what should now be obvious.....FORD considers this a problem or they would not be running away from warranty claims!! :icon_mad:
If FORD will not stand by the product they delivered and fall onto an excuse that has rarely raised its head in the past...WATER IN FUEL...then one has to consider whether FORD deserves our support by buying their product.
Further evidence appears to be in place when you read that GM is covering warranty issues their pumps and similar VW pumps have resulted in Federal action. FORD has to be arrogant and somewhat dull in the head to attempt to bully owners rather than face an issue they created. :nono:

I will not panic, but I keep meticulous records detailing everything I do to and with my truck. I will watch threads like this , as I encourage everyone to do. The HPFP may not be a problem :icon_confused: but FORD's reaction to deny claims certainly give a clear indication that there is a problem somewhere.

Time to hear from FORD...Cory???

Time to send emails etc to FORD to say we are watching and expecting better that we are seeing...squeaky wheel....

There, now I need another coffee! :yesnod:
 

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Do we know for sure if the aftermarket fuel filtration systems do IN FACT catch the water the factory filters allow to pass without WIF light coming on?
This is a HUGELY troubling situation that has been around a while. CP3 pumps may be less sensitive but they fail too when water gets in them. Most of the ones I've changed had some rust evident in inlet and the owners had WIF lit in the past. This was not on Fords.

This is a problem bigger than Ford. Evidence says that ULSD carries moisture more readily than earlier formulation fuels. Additives you pour into tank that cure too many different problems have had alcohol for fuel drying and that can lead to water being carried through filters and separating out where it does great harm.
Setting up a still settling system that may have the best chance for water separation is near impossible on a moving vehicle if the separation takes time.
I say it is bigger than Ford. I'm not saying that Ford may not have a water issue the others may be addressing at least somewhat more successfully with their factory filtration systems.
If someone on here is a fleet operator with an equal mix of the different brand trucks operating on fuel from the same tank they could tell us a lot more about whether this is a Ford problem. If there is a person like that here I have not seen them posting.
I do have a neighbor that works as a site manager for a well services company and he said he has only had a few issues and it was trucks not operated out of the yard and blamed it on poor fuel purchased from questionable sources on the road. He has a varied mix of the three brands and none are 6.7 Fords. I don't consider this a sampling to be relied on.

No good answers I know of.
 

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Not that I'm an eternal optimist, but you're obviously looking for an off the wall reason to get some new paint.

I'm not seeing the statistics for at 110% failure rate on these pumps, given the numbers of them out there and the small number of incidences reported around here...I think I'll roll the dice rather than lose my a$$ on a trade in. This has been hashed out time and again since the trucks came out.
 

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http://www.dieselsite.com/dieselsite2011-20012ford67lfuelfilterwaterseparator.aspx

I'm glad this discussion came up. This is a critical upgrade to these trucks.

There was a question about the effectiveness of these filters. We have used the Dahl filters in all our fuel systems for 11 years. When we were designing this one, we looked at many others and settled back with Dahl because of their effectiveness.

We found back in 2001 when we installed these on 7.3Ls, we caught water in large quantities that was never evident in the OEM filter. When you never see what in your filter drain, then install a filter and suddenly have water, you become convinced pretty quick.

The Dahl is not a water "filter". It is a true separator. Water filters try to block water by molecule size. This is less effective as some squeezes through as the filters are more dirty and the suction pressure rises. Water separators remove water because it can't make the turns in the filter (different pressure zones) that fuel can, which causes the water to "fall out" of suspension. This removes a much greater percentage of water, and conseqentially removes large particles, algea, etc in the process. Because so much falls out in the depressurizer zone (bowl), the actual filter has a much greater range.

Thanks for looking at our products. Bob
 

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Since we really don't have much control over the quality of the fuel we purchase you'd think that Ford (and other manufacturers) would take the potential contaminates into consideration when designing the system and sourcing the components.

Hopefully those that have experienced HPFP failure and subsequent damage will file complaints with the NHTSA.

I had Bob's CPR fuel system on my 97 and it worked great. The quality of the fuel out west is typically pretty good, but the Dahl filter/separator did catch a little water every once in a while.

Do we know for sure that adding the new Dieselsite filter system would void our warranties?
 
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