The Diesel Stop banner
1 - 13 of 13 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey Guys,

Newish to me 2002 7.3l. 354k on the truck. 4x4 automatic. Runs great. Drove it home from SC to NY with no issues.

Since it has been home, I have done the following:

Oil cooler o-rings
Coolant flush
New Thermostat
Oil Change (Rotella T 15w40)
Glow plugs
Glow Plug Relay
CPS
One new battery - (other was tested and is above spec)

I was having issues with it starting cold when I brought it home. Found out one battery had a short. Got it replaced and the motor whirled over no problem. The truck would start at this point but run really rough for a while once it did.

I decided to just replace all the glow plugs since it did start and thought maybe just a couple were bad.

New glow plugs in and confirmed each bank is pulling between 40 and 50amps when the glow plugs are on (80-100 amps total). Still will not start well. In the garage at ~42° it started today and ran reasonably smooth. When I have it parked outside, i can crank indefinitely in 20° weather and not even get it to fire. After cranking for 20-30 seconds, it does seem to fire a little bit and when I look in the mirror a bit of white smoke starts coming out. It will never actually start. As soon as it is plugged in for an hour or two, the truck starts like it is summer time.

I have run all of the diagnostic tests that I can: KOEO, KOER, Buzz, Contribution. I have 0% PERDEL on all cylinders once running.

I have also unplugged the ICP while running and the idle did change slightly. When trying to start with the ICP unplugged, it throws a code and will not start. The biggest mystery to me is the sky high ICP pressures I am seeing while cranking. It is worst while cold. I have attached 3 graphs. One cold start where it did not start and two warm starts where it did. Does anything stick out?

I need this truck to be my daily driver but I can't even get it to start reliably! I have had people tell me that the injectors must we worn out but the truck runs so well when warm that it seems like it can be that. What am I missing here?





 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
15,107 Posts
So, in the last graph, it appears there are multiple crank attempts with no start. You'll note that with each attempt, you get to 500 psi and the IPR duty cycle responds accordingly. It would appear you've met all the requirements of the PCM to fire the injectors. You could monitor injector PW to see if they are being fired, but assuming they are, here are the remaining options.

1. You aren't generating enough heat to fire the fuel. Heat comes not only from the glow plugs, but also from the compression of the air in the cylinders. Worn rings or slow cranking would decrease the heat production and lead to hard starts. Your cranking speed is ok and these engines generally last forever, so I doubt that's it.

2. Injector poppet clearance - as the injectors wear, the poppet clearance decreases and will prevent the injector from firing even though the signal is being given. I've attached a link to read.

How many miles on the truck? What GPR did you use? I've had one fail within the first week before - a NAPA GPR.

You might get some improvement changing to 5W40 oil through winter.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,436 Posts
1) turn the key to the on position

2) jump the two big contacts on the GPR for at least 30 seconds

3) start the truck

Did the truck start right away?

If so your GPR or wiring is at fault and you can replace it with a much heavier duty stancor unit
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,341 Posts
First thing that jumped out at me was the 15W-40...but ofcourse RT beat me to the punch.

If you want to stay with Rotella (and its got a great track record in our engines) then the Rotella T-6 5W-40 is the way to go.

Ofcourse, Wal-Mart is the cheapest and here is the link to get an extra $10 discount by ordering a 3-pack of 1-gallon jugs:

Shell Rotella Synthetic 5W-40 Motor Oil, 1 Gallon (Casepack of 3 units) - Walmart.com

Then you just have to buy one extra 1-gallon jug. You can also pick up the Motorcraft FL-1995 oil filter at the same time for $10.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
So, in the last graph, it appears there are multiple crank attempts with no start. You'll note that with each attempt, you get to 500 psi and the IPR duty cycle responds accordingly. It would appear you've met all the requirements of the PCM to fire the injectors. You could monitor injector PW to see if they are being fired, but assuming they are, here are the remaining options.

1. You aren't generating enough heat to fire the fuel. Heat comes not only from the glow plugs, but also from the compression of the air in the cylinders. Worn rings or slow cranking would decrease the heat production and lead to hard starts. Your cranking speed is ok and these engines generally last forever, so I doubt that's it.

2. Injector poppet clearance - as the injectors wear, the poppet clearance decreases and will prevent the injector from firing even though the signal is being given. I've attached a link to read.

How many miles on the truck? What GPR did you use? I've had one fail within the first week before - a NAPA GPR.

You might get some improvement changing to 5W40 oil through winter.
On the last chart, note that the ICP pressure is on the secondary axis. The ICP pressure is up near 2500psi but the IPR is still at 40%. Does this make sense? To me, the IPR should head towards zero to help relieve that high pressure. The high pressure jumps out at me as evidence to the overall problem. Am I way off base with that assumption?

I did monitor the injector PW. It is normally right around 4ms. Everytime I have tried to start it, the PCM is always call for fuel. I have yet to see the fueling conditions not be met.

1.) I have done nothing to confirm compression on the engine but it does run well everywhere else. I could test compression if I pull the valve covers off again.

2.) This has been brought up by someone before and it seems to have the most merit. It would explain why the truck responds so well to and hour or so of heat in the block. Would i be able to confirm that the injectors are not firing by removing the valve cover and watching for the discharge from the injectors while cold? It also seems as though going to an 0w40 or 5w40 oil could help mask this problem significantly during cold weather. Is there any risk to running those oils all summer?

The truck has 354k miles. I have no idea if the injectors are original or not.

I used a Carquest GPR. Before replacing it, I did short across the old GPR terminals for 30 seconds with no improvement during starting. Even though I didn't think the old GPR was truly bad, I replaced it to be thorough.

1) turn the key to the on position

2) jump the two big contacts on the GPR for at least 30 seconds

3) start the truck

Did the truck start right away?

If so your GPR or wiring is at fault and you can replace it with a much heavier duty stancor unit
I did this testing before I replaced the old GPR and jumping the terminals did nothing to improve the cold start performance.


First thing that jumped out at me was the 15W-40...but ofcourse RT beat me to the punch.

If you want to stay with Rotella (and its got a great track record in our engines) then the Rotella T-6 5W-40 is the way to go.

Ofcourse, Wal-Mart is the cheapest and here is the link to get an extra $10 discount by ordering a 3-pack of 1-gallon jugs:

Shell Rotella Synthetic 5W-40 Motor Oil, 1 Gallon (Casepack of 3 units) - Walmart.com

Then you just have to buy one extra 1-gallon jug. You can also pick up the Motorcraft FL-1995 oil filter at the same time for $10.
This has been on my radar for a while now. It just pains me to drain oil that has less than 100 miles on it. I wanted to be confident there is no other option to explore before I go this route. It is looking more and more like I will be doing it soon though.

Thank you guys for all of your input. It is greatly appreciated.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,341 Posts
5W-40 can be run year round in our PSD...but if a guy were really on a budget then he could switch to a 15W-40 Dino Oil during the hot months.

If he were REALLY on a budget then he could drain the current oil with 100 miles on it and save it til summer.

Its been awhile but I have been that broke before :winking:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,341 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
5W-40 can be run year round in our PSD...but if a guy were really on a budget then he could switch to a 15W-40 Dino Oil during the hot months.

If he were REALLY on a budget then he could drain the current oil with 100 miles on it and save it til summer.

Its been awhile but I have been that broke before :winking:
It's not so much a matter of being broke as much as it is throwing money at the wrong issue. If the best guess we can come up with is the oil weight, I have no issue changing it to Rotella T6.


And here is the GPR of choice, the Stancor. I just bought one last week from Guzzle to replace a NAPA that didn't even last one year.

Welcome to guzzle's White-Rodgers (Stancor) GPR replacement Mod Web Page
If at some point the GPR goes bad, I will step up to the stancor unit. For the time being, jumping across the terminals offers no improvement to the starting. I take this as the GPR is not the cause of my issues.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
15,107 Posts
Those recordings are completely normal - the IC pressure will shoot up like that until it starts. Based on the recordings, I don't think your issues are related to oil pressure. I'm still thinking its lack of heat production or injectors. With the miles you've got on it, I'm betting on injectors. When you do the buzz test, they should be muted compared with a set of new ones. Do you have any friends with low mileage injectors you could compare them to.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Hmmm. Injectors are gaining more support. From what I can tell, there is minimal white smoke during the cranking when it doesn't even fire. I start to get white smoke as it fire intermittently.

I do not have anyone with low mileage injectors to compare to. Could I do a stone cold buzz test and a hot buzz test to determine anything?

If it truly is related to worn injectors/poppet clearance causing them to stick with the cold, thick oil; it seems as though throwing some 5w40 in it could be an experiment/band aid? Others have suggested it but if the swamp diesel article posted above is right, it sounds like the thinner oil can't hurt.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
15,107 Posts
Sure couldn't hurt. It might be worth pulling a valve cover and taking some measurements. There's a guy on eBay selling a poppet shim kit. I've never used it, but it sounds like it could buy you some time before having to do a replacement. The guy's username is truckrental - do a search for POWERSTROKE injector tune up. The kit is $65. A rebuilt set of injectors is north of $1000.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
26,502 Posts
Sure sounds to me like it's clearance issues with the injector poppets. The shim kit RT pointed you at might do the trick.


One thing I didn't see in any of this is fuel pressure. It can't hurt to check your fuel pressure and delivery. Also check the regulator port on the side of the fuel bowl to be sure it's not clogged. I recall someone having starting issues with the fuel pressure being too HIGH caused by a plugged regulator port. I know it doesn't sound logical, but just reporting what I recall being posted. Checking fuel delivery pressure and the regulator doesn't cost anything, so might be worth checking.


BTW, the info you posted up with your problem was very comprehensive. If everyone did that, it would be easy to solve most problems. Yours is a little tougher than most we see here.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
All,

Thanks for the help. It can't hurt to try and shim the poppets and see if it gets any better. Depending on how the weather goes up here in NY, I may or may not get to test the cold start again this winter. Hopefully I can get it done and tested before it warms up to much.

I am glad that all of the info I provided was helpful. I spent hours reading various forums and exhausting all troubleshooting options I had come up with. I appreciate everyones help and I will do my best to close the loop and let everyone know what the final outcome is.
 
1 - 13 of 13 Posts
Top