[MrPlowJr_EZ_V]

Head studs...

Is this an at home job in a small bay with an everyday tool set?

Also is there anything wrong with ARP's or are there any other recommended manufacturers?

Thanks
Plow

 

[redfishman17]

I think we wish it could be that easy, I'm afraid that may not be the case as other may tell you.

 

[trick76cj5]

It can be done w/basic tools and a couple floor jacks. You can jack the truck up enough to clear the rear studs (or cut a hole in the floor as some have done), but it's not the easiest job in the world.

From what I hear, ARP doesn't really know what the torque should be on the bolts and if torqued to their value you can/will pop a head gasket. . .the price difference is a set of head gaskets. . .i just went for the h11's for peace of mind.

 

[Layson]

I know it took like 8 hours just to get them out with the motor still in the truck... It is alot of work...

then the motor came out to install them...

 

[Blaster472]

paging dockboy!

 

[caryt]

On my 95 I did injectors and head studs ..2 of us, in one very long day and that was cutting a hole in the floorboard.

cary

 

[hotstik]

Installing head studs with the cab on can be done, but it's a big pain in the butt. I did it.

Avoid the ARP studs, they are garbage. Go with H-11's.

 

[POWERSTROKE RACER]

[ QUOTE ]
Installing head studs with the cab on can be done, but it's a big pain in the butt. I did it.

Avoid the ARP studs, they are garbage. Go with H-11's.

[/ QUOTE ]
And you know this from experience?

 

[hotstik]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Installing head studs with the cab on can be done, but it's a big pain in the butt. I did it.

Avoid the ARP studs, they are garbage. Go with H-11's.

[/ QUOTE ]
And you know this from experience?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have the ARP studs, and I'm sorry I put them. I've called ARP multiple times, and they still have no clue as to the correct amount to torque the studs to.

I think we can all agree that the 96lbft that ARP thinks is correct is wrong. ARP says the yield point for those studs is 117lbft. Most people that are running them are torquing them to like 120-135lbft - past the yield point. That just doesn't seem smart. Does it?

Bigrpowr's ARP's didn't work for him. Remember? He's got a lot more power now and his H-11's seem to be holding just fine. I'm sure you'd be running the ARP's too if they worked.

Feel free to correct any inaccuracies...

 

[IH1206]

I was told by a reliable source that 250 pounds was the correct ammount to be used

 

[hotstik]

[ QUOTE ]
I was told by a reliable source that 250 pounds was the correct ammount to be used

[/ QUOTE ]

250lbft??? That's what you torque them to on the 6.0L. I believe those ARP's are made of a better material too.

 

[POWERSTROKE RACER]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Installing head studs with the cab on can be done, but it's a big pain in the butt. I did it.

Avoid the ARP studs, they are garbage. Go with H-11's.

[/ QUOTE ]
And you know this from experience?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have the ARP studs, and I'm sorry I put them. I've called ARP multiple times, and they still have no clue as to the correct amount to torque the studs to.

I think we can all agree that the 96lbft that ARP thinks is correct is wrong. ARP says the yield point for those studs is 117lbft. Most people that are running them are torquing them to like 120-135lbft - past the yield point. That just doesn't seem smart. Does it?

Bigrpowr's ARP's didn't work for him. Remember? He's got a lot more power now and his H-11's seem to be holding just fine. I'm sure you'd be running the ARP's too if they worked.

Feel free to correct any inaccuracies...

[/ QUOTE ]
Not picking on you just because of your IC post.
It just really bothers me when bad info is posted on forums, especially when lack of knowledge is behind them.
H-11's are spec'd @ 120lbs (I torque them to 140)
So are ARP's. (I will be doing the same 140 in Snow White)
At the 120lbs with the same lube both offer the same clamping force.
I have not found out yet the problem in the incorrect torque specs but seems as though they were sent a set of studs and asked to copy them with no real testing done like there was when I originally had A1 make H11 studs for me.

They will both work if torqued correctly.

 

[hotstik]

[ QUOTE ]
Not picking on you just because of your IC post.
It just really bothers me when bad info is posted on forums, especially when lack of knowledge is behind them.
H-11's are spec'd @ 120lbs (I torque them to 140)
So are ARP's. (I will be doing the same 140 in Snow White)
At the 120lbs with the same lube both offer the same clamping force.
I have not found out yet the problem in the incorrect torque specs but seems as though they were sent a set of studs and asked to copy them with no real testing done like there was when I originally had A1 make H11 studs for me.

They will both work if torqued correctly.

[/ QUOTE ]

David,

Thanks for offering a constructive post. It's unexpected and appreciated. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Why doesn't anyone at ARP offer the same technical specs that you are giving here? I don't doubt that you are correct though. What you are stating makes more sense. Have you installed and tested the ARP's in your trucks?

Also, aren't the ARP's and the A1's completely different materials? As such, shouldn't there be some difference in applicable clamping force and yield point? And, if this is the case, would torquing them to the same specs be the best choice?

Thanks

 

[clamgulch]

H-11 is steel that is heat treated and tempered to 250-300 ksi tensile strength, meaning they won't stretch. You would rip the treads out of the block before you could stretch them.

ARP head studs are considerable "softer" than that, and would thus be more prone to stretch which could explain why there have been some blown head gaskets with them. However, there can be other reasons for blown gaskets too, like surface finish on the block and/or heads.

You get what you pay for in this case.

BTW, I have a slightly used set of H-11 studs for sale that I bought from DI...

 

[POWERSTROKE RACER]

[ QUOTE ]
H-11 is steel that is heat treated and tempered to 250-300 ksi tensile strength, meaning they won't stretch. You would rip the treads out of the block before you could stretch them.

ARP head studs are considerable "softer" than that, and would thus be more prone to stretch which could explain why there have been some blown head gaskets with them. However, there can be other reasons for blown gaskets too, like surface finish on the block and/or heads.

You get what you pay for in this case.

BTW, I have a slightly used set of H-11 studs for sale that I bought from DI...

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't have the test results in front of me right now, but you could probably answer the question.
How would a person determine that a 120 lbs of torque placed X amount of pulling pressure on a particular stud?
in other words if the A1 and the ARP stud are both subjected to the same torque how do you know that one or the other is stronger or weaker in the same application?

 

[hotstik]

[ QUOTE ]
H-11 is steel that is heat treated and tempered to 250-300 ksi tensile strength, meaning they won't stretch. You would rip the treads out of the block before you could stretch them.

ARP head studs are considerable "softer" than that, and would thus be more prone to stretch which could explain why there have been some blown head gaskets with them. However, there can be other reasons for blown gaskets too, like surface finish on the block and/or heads.

You get what you pay for in this case...

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that the ARP's are more prone to stretching is the reason that I called them junk in comparison to the A1 H11's.

However, Mr. Lott is saying that one will work just as good as the other when torqued properly.

It would be great if he could clarify this statement, and educate us on the extensive testing he's done on both brands.

 

[ditch_dawg]

As much as I hate to admit it Slim is right /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif What you are looking for is a clamp load per some specified value from the gasket manufacturer. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but the effective clamp load could be obtained with a material of lesser strength. A couple of things to keep in mind are that it still has to be strong enough to overcome any lifting forces, ie cylinder pressures and that the spec'ed clamp load does not exceed the yield strength of the stud.

 

[bigrpowr]

sorry honey...i know why you are saying what you're saying, but mine let go at 125 with black moly. cheap a$$ studs plain and simple. h-11's and never look back.

 

[pipewhiner]

Here's some back and forth from a few years ago when Summit first started carrying the ARPs



Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dave...Who makes yours(if that's not confidential) and what makes them better. The cost to me is secondary to the product recieved.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



They are made by a company in CA that also make high strength head studs for the top fuel dragsters. If I remember right, they are 260k psi studs.
I'll pay the extra $$$ for the extra strength and knowing they were made by a company that has the experience they do, and designed by some Texan who knows a thing or 2 more about Power Strokes than most engineers.

I don't remember reading anyone knocking ARP. If they are a lesser quality, it doesn't mean they are junk, just lesser quality, and you get what you pay for. I'm sure ARP will sell alot of those studs at a good price for most who want assuarnce their truck will hold together.
As long as those same guys know they need a good program, regardless of what studs/bolts they are using.
You can still pop a gasket with 260k studs. I know!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



After reading Clam's big post and now yours, It is causing me to think about something. It seems that many who pop a head gasket using studs also has ended up injuring a rod which eventually holes a block sometime down the road. Since the DI type studs are most used and considering they are so strong, it makes me wonder if they are TOO strong to provide a source of relief to protect the rods. Maybe the ARP studs will give up the ghost just a slight bit sooner only resulting in having to fix a head gasket instead of a whole engine. I think this may be something to consider.

Hammer


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Hammer
While I understand your thinking,it's the wrong way of looking at it. Going fast means fixing weak links with better parts. What you are suggestion is installing a fusible link. My opinion is if your not willing to do it the right way leave it stock. Again understand that is the way I look at it.
I would add that going fast in a Power Stroke is not black magic the recipe is proven albeit a little expensive. The question is why are there so few fast Power strokes?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Fusible Link...EXACTLY! My point is many can't afford the high dollar rods plus labor cost and I have a hunch that maybe a weaker headstud may save the regular forged rods. When going for the EXTREME power where stronger rods are almost a requirement then the H11 bolts seem a no-brainer since the rods are no longer an issue or weak link. I think the high performance powerstroke world could possibly accomodate both sets of studs and the choice comes down to maybe which rods you are using.

The recomedation can go soemthing like this:

PMRs....use stock bolts
Forged rods....Use ARP studs
Aftermarket beefy rods...use DI's H11 studs.
just feel like buying crap studs that will break...use DPS's

Hammer


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Sounds like a fair game plan,I'll leave the last one alone

 

[389sixpack]

I got this from another site. Cummins studs, not PSD. Good reading.

[ QUOTE ]
ARP head studs revisted

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I got my block back from the machine shop right after I returned from Muncie. I took a copper gasket, the ARP head studs, and a cylinder head and started to check the durabilty of the ARP studs VS TQ applied with a super accurate 1400 dollar TQ wrench I got last winter.

The purpose of this was to check the total amount of TQ I could apply to the ARP studs and not permanently deform them. The idea was to come up with the highest yield I could get before I exceeded the fasteners abilty to continue to apply clamp load and not deform.

The results were very good and I will tell ya the ARP-2000 material is a very ductile and very strong!

ARP has recommended a total TQ of 96 ft lbs using their Moly based lube or 122 ft lbs using 30 wt oil. This according to ARP provided 75% of total yield. Roughly of course. I found out some interesting results while going higher.

First I measured the studs with a micrometer that is accurate to 40 millionths of inch. This was to determine the stretch of the studs after they were TQ'd and removed.

I went to 105 ft lbs and found zero stretch on any of the 26 studs. Then I went to 110 with the same results. I continued torquing, removing and measuring until I got to 151 ft lbs and found 1 stud of the 26 had moved under .001 or 1 thou.

I then proceeded to 160 ft lbs and most of them had moved about 2 thou permanantly. For grins I went to 170 and then to 188 ft lbs were most of the studs were now permanantly moved about .006! I am betting from the way the fasteners felt that I could have gone to 200 ft lbs, but I had concerns of possibly tearing the threads up in the block or deforming them and plus I was just plain tired from torquing those things so many times.

To keep things consistant I washed the studs, washers and nuts in my ultrasonic cleaner between changes to avoid any contamination of small dirt particles, etc. I applied a liberal amount of ARP lube to all the surfaces each time and the temperature was keep constant. The fasteners were allowed to cool between measurements to avoid any heating giving me a false or stretched reading that was not accurate.

I am still amazed at the ability of the ARP studs to take that kind of abuse and stretch this little. That is a super ductile fastener that will do that.

ARP still recommneds officially the 75% yield at 96 ft lbs is best, but says the fasteners should not deform up to 122ft lbs using their moly lube. I found out they can take a little more than that. I guess they have a safety factor built in.

At 125 ft lbs I measured zero permanent stretch! This was after they were TQ'd and retorqed 5 times previous. This is awesome performance. Usually you will break a stud made from 4340 steel at anywhere from 135 ft lbs and up. The ARP went to 188 and only moved .006. That is one tough stud.

To the guys that have purchased the studs from me, I can now say the ARP's are good to 125 ft lbs with ease. The clamp load difference between the ARP recommended 96 and 125 is just over 25% more not counting friction losses.

For a stud that is over 6" in length, .006 thou is not much at all

Don~

[/ QUOTE ]