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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Does the HEUI system retain any advantages over common-rail? Apparently Ford will be moving away from HEUI in the next-gen PSD, but I have to believe that cost is part of the reason why...HEUI is sophisticated and expensive. But does HEUI provide any benefit in the way of reliability, precision-metering, economy, or performance potential over common-rail?

There are a lot of people here who are getting a ton of performance out of these systems as well as a wealth of knowledge about the overall potential...is HEUI ultimately a benefit, or a limiting factor?




Early '99 7.3L 6spd F250 4X4 shortbox crew
 

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I think the injection pumps getting more effiecient, smaller and more reliable will bring about the extinction of a hydralic pressure injection. In fact, while the HEUI system was on the drawing table the mechanical pumps blew past its capabilities. I'm just guessing here?
 

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HEUI is an evolutionary dead-end, and is an extreme limiting factor to PSD’s making big power. It has no advantages of HPCR. HP Common rail injection is not cheaper than HEUI, as far as I can tell, and no less complex, so that has nothing to do with leaving HEUI behind. HEUI killed itself, for several reasons. Here are as many as I can think of, and I hope that someone more knowlegable and elegant in their descriptions will get on here to help me out:

1.) Timing control (or lack thereof). It is inherently difficult to monitor or control the timing in an HEUI system. The reason is because the entire system works below the pressures necessary to dissolve entrained and unentrained air into solution with the fuel. This is called the “miscibility point” but it is probably not spelled that way. Ha ha. Anyway, the way this works is this… Air bubbles in the fuel are sucked, then pumped into the head rails. The injector sucks a load of fuel in, in preparation to fire. However, in this load of fuel is a bunch of air (simply because diesel is foamy, fizzy, yucky stuff, like soda pop). The plunger drops, and the injection cycle begins, but what happens? Have you ever turned on a hose with a bunch of air in it? How long was the delay before water came out? How long did it take until the water came out in a solid, steady stream, instead of a spurty mess of mist, air, and water? This tiny delay caused by the air means that the timing of each injection event is driven by not only when the PCM tells it to start, but also HOW much air is in the injector, WHERE the air is in the column of diesel inside (are you going to get a late start, a weak middle, or a weak back-end in your injection event?) and also, the total pressure of the injection event is compromised, because air is compressible, and fuel is not.

Add to this the fact that HEUI systems with split shot injectors actually create air by spitting pressurized fuel back into the rails at the pause between “shots” and you can see that there is a real problem here for emissions, efficiency, and power.

HPCR, on the other hand, provides low pressure and high pressure systems, with the high ressure system feeding the injectors WAY above miscibility, so air is no longer a problem.

2,) The number of injection events per powerstroke (or lack thereof). HEUI systems do not lend themselves to multiple injection events per powerstroke. The most ever attained was three, by Ford with the 6-liter, but I think we can all see how well that worked out. That was taken away mere months after it was developed. The reason is because of the difficulties inherent with a hydraulic system. Once you open that valve to the high pressure oil, the even is going to happen, no matter what you do, and so it just happens, bada BING! Split shot injectors just divert the middle of the injection event back into the fuel rail, they do not interrupt the event. Once the hydraulic oil starts to drop the plunger, there ain’t no stopping it, and even if there is, there can be no degree of precision in where it stops, etc, since there is no mechanical, only a hydraulic link, and how much it drops depends on oil quality, viscosity, quantity, HPOP RPM and output, etc. There are so many variables, that nothing can be controlled.

HPCR, on the other hand, has been developed to present as many as 7 high-precision injection events per powerstroke, at the same (or higher) pressures as HEUI can provide, with infinitely more precision. This provides infinite control over emissions, duty cycles, output, fuel economy, etc.

2.) The increased demand for oil at high output. Oil pressures drop off in HEUI systems under high demand. This results in loss of power when you need it most. Hence, expensive dual pump systems, which I know nothing about, but have to assume that they add a large parasitic loss to the engine in their operation.

Anyway, I am going to stop now before I write a novel, but you get the point. HEUI is going away because it is not a very good way to do things, costs (I assume) about the same as HPCR, and performs far worse. HPCR did not kill it. It killed itself.
 

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perfect in every way.....just one thing though....dual pumps offer little to no parasitic loss.


I think the "ideal" motor is a 444 engine built to the hilt....with a twin cp3 setup. that would be bitchen.


Wacker
 

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[ QUOTE ]
perfect in every way.....just one thing though....dual pumps offer little to no parasitic loss.


I think the "ideal" motor is a 444 engine built to the hilt....with a twin cp3 setup. that would be bitchen.


Wacker

[/ QUOTE ]

dual pumps may add very little parasitic loss...but it's a physical impossibility to add NO loss.

Hammer
 

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For 99.9% of the people, HEUI is perfect. With programming options available, even the largest injectors can run smokeless with the proper supporting mods. I like that! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif
 

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
perfect in every way.....just one thing though....dual pumps offer little to no parasitic loss.


I think the "ideal" motor is a 444 engine built to the hilt....with a twin cp3 setup. that would be bitchen.


Wacker

[/ QUOTE ]

dual pumps may add very little parasitic loss...but it's a physical impossibility to add NO loss.

Hammer

[/ QUOTE ]

well duhh. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif thats why I said little to none /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif.....hows this some where inbetween those 2. LOL OR hows about this "most" pumps can be turned with your teeth, /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/phoney.gif Very little drag on these things. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 

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So quit wackin' and yackin' and git-r-done!

[/ QUOTE ]

believe me buddy I have some Ideas...... if you got the dough Ill supply the go!! LOL
 

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I'm outta dough, yo- but I would sure like to see a running example. Thought about it myself a couple times and that was what lead me to trying to see if there was enough interest in a new head to justify it. There wasn't at that time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
great responses all...Hoss, all I can say is "wow".


given the stroke and displacement of the 7.3, would it benefit from conversion to HPCR (if it could be done)? Or is HPCR better suited to smaller stroke, higher RPM engines?

if it was nearly as easy to convert a 7.3 to HPCR as it is to add modified HEUI injectors and big oil, would it be worth it?



Early '99 7.3L F250 6spd 4X4 shortbox crew
 

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HPCR is awsome . 7.3 liter is a small high rpm engine in the diesel world .
HPCR is great for all of them it is nice to work on it is very simple to service also i like them.
 

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Somebody had to get something off their chest. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Makes me want to pull my measly response.
 

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The pilot shot is for noise reduction. Multiple injection events are used to control the combustion event to minimize creation (and therefore emission) of EPA-restricted combustion by-products compounds.
 

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[ QUOTE ]
1.) Timing control (or lack thereof). It is inherently difficult to monitor or control the timing in an HEUI system. The reason is because the entire system works below the pressures necessary to dissolve entrained and unentrained air into solution with the fuel. This is called the “miscibility point”

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you tell me more about the miscibility point? What pressures are required to keep the air from coming out of solution?

Thanks.
 

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Air is in ALL liquids that are exposed atmospheric conditions. There is free air (Hutchs air) and dissolved air. Free air is in the form of bubbles or microbubbles, and can easily be removed by decanting. It is easily re-introduced by agitation (as in fueling, driving, or returining fuel to the tank and splashing it around the pickup!). Air is easily dissolved in petroleum hydrocarbons. Reducing the pressure below atmospheric will easily knock it out. Air that stays fully dissolved is of no consequence. Air that is removed from solution and exists as bubbles is a HUGE problem (one the PSD system and HEUIs create and do not do anything to resolve - see Hoss post).

The simple act of pumping fuel will lower pressure enough to knock some out of solution. Running it over a sharp edge or accross a sharp corner will do so as well. Think CVs and the function of spilling back a split-shot during pilot injection pause. Once that air is out of solution and free, it has to be compressed a great deal (usually a couple THOUSAND psi for petroleum hydrocarbons) to return to solution at room temp. While the air gets into a HEUI as little bubbles, it takes time (as in injector stroke) to compress the little bubbles to a point where they can let the assumed injection event become a reality. HEUI cannot deal with this. If you want to see a simple solution: look at first gen VW TDI. The Bosch system put an injection needle lift sensor on one injector so the system knew for sure when the actual injection event began, and amended timing to suit. Ancient unit injector technologies has no way of doing so, just makes a lot of WAGs and bad assumptions.

The whole point of common rail is that the whole system remains above miscibility pressure for all things that regulate the timing and duration of an injection event.

The mulitple events are the result of extremely fast piezzo-electric injectors now on the market. That is not only why the new 6.4 will do so, it is why pretty much EVERY new emission tech automotive diesel is exactly that.
 
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