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Discussion Starter #1
Hello all,

I have a 2017 F250 and while 90% of the driving is highway and loads less than 2000#s, the other 10 is city/highway with loads between 16,000-18,000lbs.

I have run Amsoil since about 30,000 miles and have Black Stone analyze until a baseline was established. Based on nothing more than results, I decided that 25,000 would be the point where I change only because I run a 25K filter.

My concern is that Blackstone has said many times that silicon is high, they always question my air filter. Even though the little suction thingy never said I needed to swap filter, I swapped it at about 55,000 miles. I still have had 2 reports after that say silicone is high.

Anybody have any ideas on what could be the cause ? Everything else looks good in the report, its just the silicon.

Thanks
John
 

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I would say they are asking more like " What brand/make filter are you running?"...Not "What is the condition of your filter ??".
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Previous 2 reports have said Silicon is high, the suggested air filter, cracks in intake trac or possible residue from work that had been recently done.

I changed air filter and this report states high silicon, the truck has never had a thing done besides filter swaps so that rules of work done and I doubt it has a intake leak.
 

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So how would 1 check on these trucks ? I know on a gas engine you spray starter fluid and idle will increase, I also know on new vehicles you get a code. I’m shocked that these trucks aren’t smart enough to detect a leak.
 

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So how would 1 check on these trucks ? I know on a gas engine you spray starter fluid and idle will increase, I also know on new vehicles you get a code. I’m shocked that these trucks aren’t smart enough to detect a leak.
I don't recommend spaying highly flammable chemicals for one. With gasoline engines you have the oxygen sensors and fuel trim parameters that could indicate an intake leak and will set lean codes. Not so here.



These diesel trucks are capable of detecting a leak however it will not determine if or set a code for a poorly sealed filter housing or a poor quality air filter. Leaks after the MAF sensor cause problems with the air management system - EGR flow detection and control and the turbocharger operation. Leaks there will also cause problems with the exhaust aftertreatment system. Leaks between the air MAF sensor and the intake manifold will set an appropriate code for boost, EGR flow and MAF/MAP sensor correlation. The diagnostics for all of these codes usually begins with a VISUAL INSPECTION of the air filter housing, turbo inlet tube and the charge air intake components. That is enough to detect a leak. Inspection will require some disassembly most notably the inlet tube - remove it noting the assembly and torque of the clamps, proper installation of the filter AND COVER, flex it and inspect the ribs of the pleated sections, look for dusting by wiping the inside with a clean finger. If you see any marks, that will confirm the presence of dirt. Look into the turbocharger inlet and inspect for signs of dirt. There should be a little oil there but no signs of dirt.




I have run Amsoil since about 30,000 miles and have Black Stone analyze until a baseline was established. Based on nothing more than results, I decided that 25,000 would be the point where I change only because I run a 25K filter.
Could you elaborate on this statement a little for me?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I don't recommend spaying highly flammable chemicals for one. With gasoline engines you have the oxygen sensors and fuel trim parameters that could indicate an intake leak and will set lean codes. Not so here.



These diesel trucks are capable of detecting a leak however it will not determine if or set a code for a poorly sealed filter housing or a poor quality air filter. Leaks after the MAF sensor cause problems with the air management system - EGR flow detection and control and the turbocharger operation. Leaks there will also cause problems with the exhaust aftertreatment system. Leaks between the air MAF sensor and the intake manifold will set an appropriate code for boost, EGR flow and MAF/MAP sensor correlation. The diagnostics for all of these codes usually begins with a VISUAL INSPECTION of the air filter housing, turbo inlet tube and the charge air intake components. That is enough to detect a leak. Inspection will require some disassembly most notably the inlet tube - remove it noting the assembly and torque of the clamps, proper installation of the filter AND COVER, flex it and inspect the ribs of the pleated sections, look for dusting by wiping the inside with a clean finger. If you see any marks, that will confirm the presence of dirt. Look into the turbocharger inlet and inspect for signs of dirt. There should be a little oil there but no signs of dirt.

But using a can of starter fluid is so much easier than the methods you suggest, hahaha. Thanks for the tips and its something I will further look into. I use Ford air filter so I assume I can eliminate that as a issue/cause In all my analysis but the first, they have mentioned that silicon is high and suggested it being caused by filtration or leak in trac or silicon from previous work. As already mentioned, filter was swapped with no better results, other than air filter and Diesel filters the engine hasn’t been touched.

I run a Amsoil 25K filter, oil analysis has proven the filter to be still working at 28,000 miles and oil to be able to go beyond 28,000 miles on 2 separate occasions. I can appreciate the savings of going 25,000 miles between oil changes versus the recommended of 5000-7500 with Ford Oil and since I change the filter at 25,000 miles I just figured I would make that my changing point for oil.

No factual or scientific reason, just because I wouldn’t think of trying to go 50k(2 oil filters) between oil changes. The oil might go 50K once but could I go that number all the time ? Things like dusty driving conditions, towing more, idling more might change the number I can go between changes and I wanted a solid date number I knew I could go. In my mind and with my wallet 25K seemed to fit.

Your thought please ?
 

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Out of curiosity, what is the micron rating of your Amsoil oil filter? Or P/N?

That report is very impressive for 25K-mile OCI.

How does Blackstone establish the “Unit/Location averages” for all trucks in Column 2?
I doubt many trucks see your extended OCI so are the “averages” just other samples with similar 25K OCI ?
 

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What you should do is disassemble the intake piping behind the filter box and take a clean white towel and wipe the interior. If you see any dirt come out, then you have a leaking seal somewhere. I haven't looked at how the 6.7 is piped yet, so can't say how far back you can go, but the closest you can get to the turbo the better. I would suspect if you are getting high silicon levels, is because fine dust is getting sucked in somewhere, and the most likely place is pre-turbo. It can also get in via the PVC system, so check that as well.
 

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Have you ever had a VOA performed on your chosen Amsoil product to learn how much Silicon is present prior to use?
Amsoil should be able to provide this value.
 

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How does Blackstone establish the “Unit/Location averages” for all trucks in Column 2?
That column is for the truck in question. It's the average value for all the UOA's that they've done. Location would likely refer to a stationary engine installation.

For the first UOA, it would match the current values.
 

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How does Blackstone establish the “Unit/Location averages” for all trucks in Column 2?
That column is for the truck in question. It's the average value for all the UOA's that they've done. Location would likely refer to a stationary engine installation.

For the first UOA, it would match the current values.
That makes sense.
Thanks

I would like to see a VOA on the specific Amsoil he uses.
 

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One thing to consider is age of filter in and out of use. If you only drive 5,000 mi a year that means 5 years that the glue in the filter has to keep working. I know Cummins is very concerned about filter shelf life. I never did ask AMSOIL filter life but it might be worth it if you are going to keep them on for longer than a year.
DENNY
 

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In my shop experience has shown over and over that there are no savings when you save money on oil changes. You end up paying for it with more oil leaks if nothing else.
Seeing how long you go on oil strikes me as seeing how long you can go before you crap. Sure you'll save time in the bathroom and save toilet paper but you're carrying around a lot of crap in the mean time. Same with oil. Results from UOA will tell you the oil is OK in some ways but it does not gauge the harm some of the contaminants that have increasing levels will do to some parts of engine. How does it affect rear main seal? Valve stem seals? Rocker arm tips?
Air filters are not catching anything smaller than the fiber to fiber space. That small stuff is often small enough to pass oil filter. It collects solely based on the cubic feet of air consumed and then wiped down cylinder walls into oil by rings. It gets out of engine by draining the oil.
 
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Seeing how long you go on oil strikes me as seeing how long you can go before you crap. Sure you'll save time in the bathroom and save toilet paper but you're carrying around a lot of crap in the mean time.
The forum has a Philosopher.
 
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Discussion Starter #16
Out of curiosity, what is the micron rating of your Amsoil oil filter? Or P/N?

That report is very impressive for 25K-mile OCI.
EAO98

98.7% @ 20microns

Have you ever had a VOA performed on your chosen Amsoil product to learn how much Silicon is present prior to use?
Amsoil should be able to provide this value.
Google search yielded

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4659791/VOA_Amsoil_HDEO_Signature_Seri

One thing to consider is age of filter in and out of use. If you only drive 5,000 mi a year that means 5 years that the glue in the filter has to keep working. I know Cummins is very concerned about filter shelf life. I never did ask AMSOIL filter life but it might be worth it if you are going to keep them on for longer than a year.
DENNY
My truck was purchased in Nov 17 and this week I will hit 90k, I dont believe I will have this problem.

In my shop experience has shown over and over that there are no savings when you save money on oil changes. You end up paying for it with more oil leaks if nothing else.
Seeing how long you go on oil strikes me as seeing how long you can go before you crap. Sure you'll save time in the bathroom and save toilet paper but you're carrying around a lot of crap in the mean time. Same with oil. Results from UOA will tell you the oil is OK in some ways but it does not gauge the harm some of the contaminants that have increasing levels will do to some parts of engine. How does it affect rear main seal? Valve stem seals? Rocker arm tips?
Air filters are not catching anything smaller than the fiber to fiber space. That small stuff is often small enough to pass oil filter. It collects solely based on the cubic feet of air consumed and then wiped down cylinder walls into oil by rings. It gets out of engine by draining the oil.
Appreciate the input but your offering opinions with zero facts, Oil analyst offer facts and carries more weight than your post. Clean oil, proper viscosity, low flashpoint. My wife's Toyota goes 12-15K between oil changes on a 4.5 quart engine, this is with Toyota oil changes. The oils and more specifically synthetic oils are not what they used to be, obviously my filter is still doing its job at 25K and 28K miles. Read the analyst, they state they see zero reason this oil can't go another 28K. Would I try it, no but only because I dont want to know how long it might go 1 cycle, I only wanted to know what was a safe number under any condition and I feel like 25K is that number. It cost me $170 to do a oil change with filter myself and $40 for the analyst. I have piece of mind and if the filter wasn't $40 I would stretch that toilet paper to 40K and see what the results were. For years people have sworn by Amsoil and many have said 60K between changes as long as you swap filters at proper service intervals.

Please educate me on how stretching oil changes would cause a oil leak ? :surprise:
 

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Your thought please ?

Thank you for the clarification. At this point in the discussion my thoughts on this subject will likely add nothing you need or want to hear. I wish you luck though! :thumbsup:
 

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Please educate me on how stretching oil changes would cause a oil leak ? :surprise:[/QUOTE]


The contaminants in the oil that harden the synthetic rubber materials used to seal crankshaft, crankcase and valve covers.



I have no doubt Amsoil is good oil. Amsoil has no secret mechanism that gets suspended contaminants out of oil when those are not filterable either due to being chemicals that do not evaporate and pass out via ventilation or are so small to pass through filter. If the filter was doing it job then how did silicon build up instead of collecting in the filter?


My evidence is seals and gaskets removed from engines using synthetic oils and doing extended drain are hardened and those removed during the same higher mile service on the same models living in the same area and traveling one way commutes to the same office park. One did 5000 mile oil service and the other 12000 mile. I do not do the oil changes but do the services and repairs. I fare better when the oil drain goes longer and I get to repair leaks so please change it every 50K miles.

I do not think any of the manufacturers has spent the money or has done the testing to assure that the components of their engines affected by increased contaminant capture are up to that task.

I will say that This is gasoline engine apples to apples and there will be differences with diesel as the oil in diesels is not subjected the all the same things, gasoline is worse. I have worked on vehicles for over 40 years and I have always paid attention to why some vehicles that are at the same miles and that I know have similar usage have differences in service history.

It certainly is your vehicle and the problems, if they even happen, will occur later and make it hard to know exactly why they happened. I just know what I have seen for years. I can't resolve that no matter how good the oil and even with bypass filtration there will be some contaminants not removed for a long time and they will get to much higher concentrations if not drained out.
 

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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
Please educate me on how stretching oil changes would cause a oil leak ? :surprise:




Thanks for the detailed explanation, I ask this with all due respect and not being a smart ass. You see my oil analyst, is that oil heavily contaminated in your opinion ? With the exception of Iron, I dont see a tremendous increase in contaminates between 7500 mile and 25,000 miles. Low flash point indicates absence of fuel in oil, water/antifreeze are zero(Prob cause I do not have short trips) and lubrication or viscosity which Im sure lubricate and keep gaskets in good shape are great. I would like to see a oil report from maybe motorcraft or rotella at 7500 miles, now that would tell a lot. I might contact Blackstone and see if they could share those results on same engine with comparable miles.

John
 
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