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Discussion Starter #121
[ QUOTE ]
Your GPR most likely is bad.If it was working Fred or Barney would have been wearing your air filter box for a hat when they gave it a little shot of either.You can turn your key hear it click,watch the volt meter drop and wait for the WTS light to go out and the GPR still be bad.Do your self a favor if your batteries are old get new ones and a GPR it has to be done sooner or later.Good Luck

[/ QUOTE ]

So I expected, but it didn't.

We have to remember that I jumped the relay, put in fully recharged batteries, batteries that are a year old- 1 year, and the truck wouldn't do anything. To say the truck simply needed a 'jump' would be an understatement.

Had this been a small gas engine, needing this much cranking, it would have killed a brand new battery just out of the wrapper. Even with the ether they threw in, it still took a good 8 minutes of total cranking time to get the truck to fire. It was just never cranked for more than 30 seconds at a try.

Now I am going to sound a bit cross, please don't anyone take it personally, as I know people have good intentions. But it needs to be said for those who have arrived late, and have not been able to read through everything, for whatever reason.

I don't really need to hear for the 50th time to simply do what I have done dutifully in the past- replace batteries, all the glow plugs, and relays on an annual basis. Been there, done that, looking to go a bit more in depth to finding a realistic solution, since that hasn't worked for me in the past. I have still had to call a wrecker, the minute the temps are in the 30s/40s range and the truck sits for more than a few days. I find it hard to believe I have bought 3 'bad' trucks, but it is possible. So, before I go through all those steps AGAIN, I am trying to explore more options, since what has been done hasn't solved anything.

So lets all pretend that the relay is good, the glow plugs all new Motorcraft Belus, and the batteries are just out of the wrapper.

What would people look for? What could be an additional help?

Some posters have really gone forward with this, have suggested ice in the fuel bowl. Some have suggested some good additives, and continue to think outside the magical box of three. Thats where I am hoping we can be heading, as I come back with final answers on glow plugs, etc. I can only get a relay so fast from Stancor.

If it were a gas engine, I would personally would have been listening to the injectors with a stethescope, since it acted fuel starved. If it were burning oil, I would begin to look for an engine close to death, but it isn't. It also pulls better than the 2002. Yes it has lots of miles, but they have all been well maintained coast to coast open road hauling, not hop skip and about.

Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter #122
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bad batteries will wear the starter fast....so if starter has been fried alittle even with good batteries it may not spin fast enough....this engine needs to spin fast.....replace the gpr with a STANCOR...make sure you have a good starter and fresh set of batteries....it will start.... my experience with the oem gpr is they do not LAST...if she was not seeing alot of smoke she could still have the cat. conv. hooked up....but should still smell unburnt fuel...and last "BLUE MULE" knows what he is talking about....


action not directing this towards you sorry...just did a quick reply

[/ QUOTE ]

The truck is completely unmodified stock. Yes, Blue Mule does appear to know what he is talking about, and like some other posters like arizonian, thinking beyond the basic 1,2,3, since I have had troubles even with a new truck.
 

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Hopeless all is not lost.......while it is true most will post their findings as the gospel, others will give good info based on all the hours spent hanging out here at the dieselstop......my plan of attack would be finding someone with a scanner to retrieve the codes thrown when it would not start...I have found this to be the best course of action when the obivous does not work....my symptons on hard starts where similar to yours but at a much warmer temp around low 40's....replaced the crappy gpr with the stancor and bought a new starter with fresh batteries and solved "MY" truck problem mind you it was the orignal set of batteries and starter with around 130k on the clock....this may not solve your problem but for free advice it is the best I can offer...if you repalce the gpr make sure you disconnect both batteries ask me how I know....good luck
 

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[ QUOTE ]
if you repalce the gpr make sure you disconnect both batteries ask me how I know....good luck


[/ QUOTE ] Did we burn or weld something???? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif
 

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you repalce the gpr make sure you disconnect both batteries ask me how I know....good luck


[/ QUOTE ] Did we burn or weld something???? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]



alittle of both /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif....thank you very much.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/depressed.gif
 

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[ QUOTE ]

...So lets all pretend that the relay is good, the glow plugs all new Motorcraft Belus, and the batteries are just out of the wrapper.

What would people look for? What could be an additional help?

Some posters have really gone forward with this, have suggested ice in the fuel bowl. Some have suggested some good additives, and continue to think outside the magical box of three. Thats where I am hoping we can be heading, as I come back with final answers on glow plugs, etc. I can only get a relay so fast from Stancor...


[/ QUOTE ]

Given that, a good starter, and good started to battery connections, I would suspect the GP harness from the relay to the VC harness. Possible broken wires or burned back inside the harness connector (hence it looks good).
The best way to test would be to pull both valve covers, and disconnect all the GPs, leaving the external harness plugged into the VC gasket.
**Now make sure all the GPs are disconnected**.
Jumper the *big* lugs on the GP relay with a jumper cable or other wire. It doesn't have to big, in fact smaller is better. That way you don't accidently burn up something important.
Measure the voltage between the head and the GP connector.
If you have one that reads significatly less than the others, work your way up the harness until you find 'good' voltage. What ever you disconnected to find the 'good' voltage was the bad part.

Daniel
 

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[ QUOTE ]


So lets all pretend that the relay is good, the glow plugs all new Motorcraft Belus, and the batteries are just out of the wrapper.

What would people look for? What could be an additional help?

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose I would take the plug out of the HPOP and make sure the oil was close to the top be for cranking.
 

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[ QUOTE ]
So lets all pretend that the relay is good, the glow plugs all new Motorcraft Berus, and the batteries are just out of the wrapper.

What would people look for? What could be an additional help?

[/ QUOTE ]

Plenty of white smoke out the tail pipe? Good sign of fuel being delivered.

What determines the speed of a cranking engine? Voltage, current and condition of starter motor. How do we get maximum of both? Starting at the batteries, my list would look like this:

Batteries good? Yep, just out of the wrapper.

Are they of sufficient capacity? Yep.

Batteries full of electrolyte? Yep.

Charged? Yep.

Positive cable good? Or are they slightly corroded, with some swelling under the insulation. There are two of them. Yep, they're good.

Negative cable? There are two of them also. They're good.

Connections good at the batteries? Yep, just cleaned them.

Negative connection to frame and motor? Yep, it's good.

Starter relay? Yep.

Starter dragging? Can't tell.

Is the connection good at the starter? Yep.

Is the starter soaked in oil? Nope.

What is the minimum voltage at the starter while cranking? 10.5V.

What is the current draw? 230-630A

What is the voltage drop between the starter terminal and battery? ( the actual battery, not the clamp.) <0.2V *

Is the starter mounted flush or cocked? Flush.

Any weird noises coming from the starter? Nope.

What is the cranking speed? 150-200 rpm.

OK, the battery/starter system is good as far as I can tell. Still won't start? Nope.



Somebody help me out here. If the EOT (engine oil temp) sensor goes south,
will it hurt or help? I know it will affect the timing of the injection pulse, but how? Does the EOT gain resistance with heat, or vice-versa?


Hopeless, once we get this figured out, you'll never be stranded because of the cold.

Bill

* On edit, changed >0.2V to <0.2V
 

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I will make a suggestion here that most people will not think is the cause for this no start. However this was my problem and cured my cold start problem. I followed this thread from beginning and I went through all this an my recently aquired 96 Stroke. After doing all the mandatory checks and repairs (gpr,gplugs,uvc harness,batteries,starter,fuel screen,filters) I still had a NO START TRUCK WHEN COLD. I bought this truck from a FORD DEALER that could not get it to start when cold. I bought the truck cheap knowing there had to be a fix. Here it is!!
I spoke to Swamps Diesel performance about what all I did and he suggested to pull valve covers and pull off solenoids on top of each injector. Measure the clearence of the armature plate with a feeler guage. A new injector spec is .004 inch / and a min of .002 on old injector. I had 5 injectors under .002 and 3 that passed. The problem was that under cold conditions the injector would not work with that spec but once engine warmed up the spec was ok. If I plugged truck in it would start as injector spec would be close enough.

After I had it running like a champ with baby swamps /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smokin.gif injectors
I took my truck back to the dealer and told them and they said they had no one who cold get it fixed /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif

Here is a post from Dave at Swamps Diesel
Injector spec
 

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exvavator, I followed the link and have a comment. The post in the link refers to a truck that starts cold and then dies and will not restart when warmed up. I'm trying hard to see where the same cause can affect both cold starts and warm starts in different trucks.

Bill
 

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Another injector clearance link


You are correct about that truck starting cold. My truck did NOT start cold and until it warmed up it would not run right. Both these problems were from injector clearance issue. I was refering to that post explaining what spec should be. When Dave from Swamps had me measure that spec of each injector he explained that it has to pass the .002 in or above. In my case the magnets were not correctly working with the wrong clearance until engine warmed up and in the link it is the opposite problem. Either problem arose from spec not passing. In my case if truck was plugged in it fired up,if not plugged in it had alot of trouble and no power at ALL until it warmed up. After all the work I did with GPR / GPLUGS/ harness and still no cold start, I went with Swamps advice and checked injector spec. 5 of the 8 were bad. Installed baby Swamps and problem went away. Yesterday I started truk in 9 degree weather just with Gplugs and no problem.
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I spoke to Swamps Diesel performance about what all I did and he suggested to pull valve covers and pull off solenoids on top of each injector. Measure the clearence of the armature plate with a feeler guage. A new injector spec is .004 inch / and a min of .002 on old injector. I had 5 injectors under .002 and 3 that passed. The problem was that under cold conditions the injector would not work with that spec but once engine warmed up the spec was ok. If I plugged truck in it would start as injector spec would be close enough.

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Exactly, after SIX pages of reading I dont think ONE person metioned getting the CEL checked out, I will bet $50 on ICP too high/low..... to set a CEL while cranking is a FOR SURE sign of some other problem, bad fuel pump, oil issue or otherwise.

everyone is so fast to jump on the bad GP's band wagon its rediculous.
3 years, 86K miles and never once done a GP or a GPC, heck two of mine have burnt pins and won't work truck still start @0, hasnt gotten any colder here this winter.

I beleive you have an underlying problem, fuel or oil related, wether it be injectors out of tolerance, bad solinoinds, poppet valves, or IPR HPOP related. I suggest starting a new thread as this one is HUGE.

and go get the CEl checked out it will be stored in the PCM any dealer will be able to read it and tell you what it is.

Diesel Rod
 

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Discussion Starter #133
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I spoke to Swamps Diesel performance about what all I did and he suggested to pull valve covers and pull off solenoids on top of each injector. Measure the clearence of the armature plate with a feeler guage. A new injector spec is .004 inch / and a min of .002 on old injector. I had 5 injectors under .002 and 3 that passed. The problem was that under cold conditions the injector would not work with that spec but once engine warmed up the spec was ok. If I plugged truck in it would start as injector spec would be close enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, after SIX pages of reading I dont think ONE person metioned getting the CEL checked out, I will bet $50 on ICP too high/low..... to set a CEL while cranking is a FOR SURE sign of some other problem, bad fuel pump, oil issue or otherwise.

everyone is so fast to jump on the bad GP's band wagon its rediculous.
3 years, 86K miles and never once done a GP or a GPC, heck two of mine have burnt pins and won't work truck still start @0, hasnt gotten any colder here this winter.

I beleive you have an underlying problem, fuel or oil related, wether it be injectors out of tolerance, bad solinoinds, poppet valves, or IPR HPOP related. I suggest starting a new thread as this one is HUGE.

and go get the CEl checked out it will be stored in the PCM any dealer will be able to read it and tell you what it is.

Diesel Rod

[/ QUOTE ]

NO, they didn't. I REALLY appreciated the GPR suggestions, as it is something that is obviously a VERY important part in getting a diesel started. BUT, it is not everything, and I am willing to consider other possibilities in the process, since this is not the first time I have had trouble.

Just so you know, the CEL light has NOT come back on again, since the truck was started. Since the relay did not arrive today, and I had MUCH to do before leaving for Europe in Thursday to WORK, I didn't run the truck.

I was wondering if the CEL was doubling as something like (C)ranking (E)xcessively (L)ong, due to the massive amounts of cranking required.* thats a joke son* I am just desperate to find a solution, as I WILL cry if I get back from Europe, and have to go through THAT again. Enough is enough. I REALLY like these trucks, but I am too busy to have something I have to treat like a Ferrari to keep running in a bit of nippiness.. Whilest I might consider going ahead and importing a diesel Landy, it won't solve my truck needs!

I think the suggestion about the injectors was VERY good, when I think about Bosch systems. The engine IS tight, no slobbering, and I did have it thoroughly checked out by those who have watched diesel trucks die carefully.
 

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[ QUOTE ]

I think the suggestion about the injectors was VERY good, when I think about Bosch systems. The engine IS tight, no slobbering, and I did have it thoroughly checked out by those who have watched diesel trucks die carefully.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you don't just write off the injectors so quick!!
When I had the cold NO START problem I also had NO cel! The engine ran great when it warmed up and you would not know there was a problem with ANY injectors. But when it was colder than 35 degrees you would think it had to be a gplug issue. After I chased down every possibility I went ahead with checking the injector specs and that was the COLD START problem. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif I would not just eliminate the possibility of bad injector because someone said it can't be. If you ran out of things to replace and check I suggest looking at the injectors. The dealer I bought this 96 Powerstroke from also said they thought the engine would need to be replaced or rebuilt /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gifjust because after 3 weeks they never got it started. I got the truck started at the dealers lot by plugging it in to a 3000 watt power inverter that was in my other Powerstroke. They were baffled /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gifthat I got it started after 1 hour. I did have to add oil to HPOP while it was plugged in.
 

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Discussion Starter #135
[ QUOTE ]


I hope you don't just write off the injectors so quick!!
They were baffled /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gifthat I got it started after 1 hour. I did have to add oil to HPOP while it was plugged in.

[/ QUOTE ]


I am not writing off anybody's suggestions quickly.

1) It doesn;t have to be any ONE thing. We could have 2 minor things going on adding up to something big.

2)I have just been through the GPR thing before, and still suffered cold starting troubles.

This truck is weeping a bit at the front of the engine, right below where I understand the HPOP resevoir is, so that is definitely something I will snoop into. I had intended to go in and do some fault tracing today, but now I have suffered a slightly different problem. Last night bringing down the BIG suitcase packing for Thursday, I slipped on the steps and rolled my left ankle! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

So I couldn't safely climb up to crawl around the engine compartment, and its turning those colours that say its a deep nasty sprain. Now its getting cold again. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif
 

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Hmmmmm, I wonder if you have an oil rail plug going out? The O rings go bad on them and they start to leak.

I had one go and my truck was hard to start, it won't let the HPOP build enough pressure for the injectors to fire. So that one got replaced right away, the second one went shortly after I put in my 17* HPOP and the truck would not start AT ALL(funny how higher pressure finds all the weak spots). Just replaced a 3rd one last weekend, now I have one more to go. They are cheap and easy to replace, I got two at IH for $22 each, and two at Ford for $7 each... no idea on the difference in price.

You hadn't said anything about an oil leak so I didn't want to add fuel to the fire.
 
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