Manual transmissions and towing?
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A ZF can be broken by misuse. If you are careful with any transmission (including the E4OD) you can do a lot with it. If you abuse things (jackrabbit starts, starting in a higher gear and slipping the clutch, shifting hard and forcing into gears, etc) the tranny will not last long.
You can put 1500 hp through a ZF but if you drive it like you stole it things are going to break.
Dave / Believer45
You can put 1500 hp through a ZF but if you drive it like you stole it things are going to break.
Dave / Believer45
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An automatic is rated to tow more load than a manual. Look at the manufactures load towing capacity . There is no direct connection to the engine as with a manual. The fluid (TC) connection will slip as much as needed to pull a load from the start, then shift on up to lockup. You have to slip a manual to get a load moving, that's what causes the clutch plate to wear out.
Just my .04 cents worth adjusted for inflation.
Just my .04 cents worth adjusted for inflation.
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The big thing with a manual is that you need to know how to drive a manual. I have never had to slip the clutch to get a load moving that the truck was capable of towing. That is what the gears are for. Now if you are like someone that figures that you can start out in second gear all the time then yes you are going to have to slip the clutch. My brother in law has gone through 3 clutches in his Dodge in 200,000 miles simply because he is determined that he is going to start out in second gear instead of first and you when he has his 3500 lb camper on it and you can smell it every time.
Jim
Jim
Couldn't agree more. The only reason the mfgrs have a heavier tow rating for automatics is the chance of improper use of the clutch, etc, according to factory reps. Like Believer 45 posted, it's pretty much got to be due to pilot error if a manual trans goes bad. I'm 10,000 mi. short of 1/4 million miles on my original clutch and 5 speed trans and no problems so far and most of those miles have been with a trailer behind me.
Me neither. Under the worst conditions like needing to creep over real rocky ground up a steep hill with my horse trailer and 1st gear isn't low enough, I just put my transfer case in Lo range without engaging my hubs and I can go as slow as needed.
Some years back, I mentioned the ZF5 speed to a high volume independent trans shop owner and two different times he said he almost never sees them.
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If automatics were better for towing then semi-trucks would have automatics - they do not.
Many truck driveline manufacturers now have computer shifted transmissions but they are not automatics like the car companies have, they are actually manual transmissions with a clutch and distinct gears that are operated by computers instead of a clutch pedal and gearshift lever. They drive like an automatic but are not. Best thing I was told when learning to drive a truck was your clutch foot either has the clutch pedal to the floor or your clutch foot is sitting on the floor off the pedal.
My bonafides - 34 years in trucking, 14 years of that running heavy truck repair shops, 13 years of that driving big trucks, 41 years doing my own repairs on mostly manual transmission cars (my own).
Dave / Believer45
Many truck driveline manufacturers now have computer shifted transmissions but they are not automatics like the car companies have, they are actually manual transmissions with a clutch and distinct gears that are operated by computers instead of a clutch pedal and gearshift lever. They drive like an automatic but are not. Best thing I was told when learning to drive a truck was your clutch foot either has the clutch pedal to the floor or your clutch foot is sitting on the floor off the pedal.
My bonafides - 34 years in trucking, 14 years of that running heavy truck repair shops, 13 years of that driving big trucks, 41 years doing my own repairs on mostly manual transmission cars (my own).
Dave / Believer45
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Did'ja ever see a kid just learning to drive with a manual ? They usually let the clutch out fast and the car lurches, prolly stalls. Guess what I mean't by slipping the clutch, is that you have to let it out slowly, until the load starts to move . Even 80,000 lb semi's have to do that, that's why they have so many gears to go thru.
I towed this 700 miles, from Greenville SC thru NC, VA, WV to Ohio. 1300 miles round trip.
It's a "90" F350 E4OD, the tranny was used, milage unknown, didn't even change the fluid, slapped it in and went on the trip.That's on a 14K GN, I know the GVW of the trailer/car was all of that. That was a year ago, still haven't changed the tranny fluid. :ford:BUILT FORD TOUGH:ford:
Last time I smelled clutch out of any of my own vehicles was in a Civic I had. The rear main seal was leaky and engine oil contaminated the disc.
I was able to tow a Dodge minivan on flat ground and a Mazda MX3 up hill (Albeit slowly) with that Civic and a tow strap and never once smelled clutch during any of those endeavors... It wasn't until a two years later that the seal went, and the clutch still had an eighth of an inch of meat before I woulda hit rivets... OE clutch at 220K miles.
I've towed over 3000 lbs behind a Ranger sized pickup up and down the Appalachians from Charleston, WV to Washington D.C. and never smelled clutch.
I think I can drive a handshaker pretty well. I've just heard one of the drawbacks of the ZF5 over the T18/T19 4 speed manual transmission is the aluminum case. It's supposedly weak.
I start in 2nd when unloaded in the tow truck. 1st when I've got a vehicle on the bed or when I'm going up hill.
I was able to tow a Dodge minivan on flat ground and a Mazda MX3 up hill (Albeit slowly) with that Civic and a tow strap and never once smelled clutch during any of those endeavors... It wasn't until a two years later that the seal went, and the clutch still had an eighth of an inch of meat before I woulda hit rivets... OE clutch at 220K miles.
I've towed over 3000 lbs behind a Ranger sized pickup up and down the Appalachians from Charleston, WV to Washington D.C. and never smelled clutch.
I think I can drive a handshaker pretty well. I've just heard one of the drawbacks of the ZF5 over the T18/T19 4 speed manual transmission is the aluminum case. It's supposedly weak.
I start in 2nd when unloaded in the tow truck. 1st when I've got a vehicle on the bed or when I'm going up hill.
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This post was by SmokeyWren , on 01/01/09
Sorry Smokey for hijacking your post, just trying to make a point.
Please don't confuse me with any sort of an engineer, but I can give you an educated guess in laymen's terms.
It's because the torque converter in a modern automagic tranny multiplies the torque available to get a heavy load moving in adverse conditions, such as when parked facing uphill on a steep grade.
When it was stock, my '99.5 7.3L automatic had 500 lb/ft torque. But the torque converter increases that to almost 1000 lbs/ft when you first began moving up a steep grade dragging a heavy trailer. The stick shifters have a max of 500 lb/ft torque, regardless of how much you slip the clutch. So the automatic can begin moving a heavier load than a stick shifter with the same engine.
And the torque converter is designed to slip, so you don't hurt anything when you are slipping the unlocked torque converter to multiply the torque to get a heavy trailer moving. But you can do some damage if you allow a clutch to slip more than a little bit.
Other than getting a heavy trailer moving, the automagic is also better for towing on the edge of lugging the engine. The engine cannot lug with a 4R100 or 5R110 automatic, because the computer-controlled tranny will downshift before the engine begins to lug. But for a stick shifter, the driver is the computer. So the driver has to understand what lugging is and not allow it. That's asking a lot of some drivers.
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Last edited by SmokeyWren : 01-01-2009 at 05:51 PM.
Below by me.I agree with him completly.
As far as the new so called manual transmissions, that are computer controlled, I wonder if they don't have a WET clutch or if the clutch is engaged "SMOOTHLY" until the truck shows movement to the computer.
But what I'm darn sure of is that you are NOT able to get a COMPUTER CONTROLLED MANUAL IN AN F SERIES Ford truck.
Take your pick, a ZF5-6 or an Automatic, I'll take the auto any day.
Sorry Smokey for hijacking your post, just trying to make a point.
Please don't confuse me with any sort of an engineer, but I can give you an educated guess in laymen's terms.
It's because the torque converter in a modern automagic tranny multiplies the torque available to get a heavy load moving in adverse conditions, such as when parked facing uphill on a steep grade.
When it was stock, my '99.5 7.3L automatic had 500 lb/ft torque. But the torque converter increases that to almost 1000 lbs/ft when you first began moving up a steep grade dragging a heavy trailer. The stick shifters have a max of 500 lb/ft torque, regardless of how much you slip the clutch. So the automatic can begin moving a heavier load than a stick shifter with the same engine.
And the torque converter is designed to slip, so you don't hurt anything when you are slipping the unlocked torque converter to multiply the torque to get a heavy trailer moving. But you can do some damage if you allow a clutch to slip more than a little bit.
Other than getting a heavy trailer moving, the automagic is also better for towing on the edge of lugging the engine. The engine cannot lug with a 4R100 or 5R110 automatic, because the computer-controlled tranny will downshift before the engine begins to lug. But for a stick shifter, the driver is the computer. So the driver has to understand what lugging is and not allow it. That's asking a lot of some drivers.
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Last edited by SmokeyWren : 01-01-2009 at 05:51 PM.
Below by me.I agree with him completly.
As far as the new so called manual transmissions, that are computer controlled, I wonder if they don't have a WET clutch or if the clutch is engaged "SMOOTHLY" until the truck shows movement to the computer.
But what I'm darn sure of is that you are NOT able to get a COMPUTER CONTROLLED MANUAL IN AN F SERIES Ford truck.
Take your pick, a ZF5-6 or an Automatic, I'll take the auto any day.
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depends wat kind of load your towing. i haul 14x32 storage sheds and a automatic wouldnt last me 6 months. backing under one of those will kill a auto. and bugman is right...you shud never have to slip a manual to get a load moving
Not really. Most all the heavy duty truck trans cases are all aluminum and they're problem free.
Maybe I'm some kind of an oddball, but I've never had that problem in pickups or trucks. My past is similar to Believer 45's. I drove a Loboy for 3+ years hauling all kinds of heavy equipment. It and a Peterbilt and Kenworth logging truck I drove part time had a 5 speed main box with a 4 speed brownie. After I retired from a truck shop I drove a set of these Reliance Trailer - Transfers for 3+ years, 13 speed Roadrangers. Of those plus various other trucks I don't ever remember "slipping" a clutch or ever wishing for an automatic. As part of my regular job, I've overhauled about every manual truck transmission known to man and I never found a design flaw or weak spot in any of them. On the other hand, at one time we maintained a fleet of over 30 mid-duty trucks with the big 600lb. Allison automatics in them and not a week went by when one of us wasn't doing a major trans overhaul on one of them. They were also the cause of many a scored sleeve in the Detroit Diesels in front of them due to the drivers lugging the engines because of not near enough gears in the Allisons.
There's also been a bunch of guys on here who say they've barbequed their Ford automatics jockeying their big 5th wheels back and forth in RV parks, especially in reverse for some reason. Everybody has their preference. I bought a 1/2 ton Tundra with a 6 speed auto and I love the auto trans in it, but it won't be my tow vehicle.
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No one has talked about the real issue. Yes an auto can initially move more weight, but when all the TQ slip heats the fluid to 200+ you cook your tranny.
When the auto tries to lock the tq in driving down the highway and it can't because of the load you smoke the fluid again.
Hand shakers are stronger units, but are rated less due to the multiplication of tq from the tq converter. However on the other end of things. A clutch is a $500 repair while a auto is a $3500 repair.
My experience on auto's has always been they are good for 100K of normal use. Anything past that you are on borrowed time.
When the auto tries to lock the tq in driving down the highway and it can't because of the load you smoke the fluid again.
Hand shakers are stronger units, but are rated less due to the multiplication of tq from the tq converter. However on the other end of things. A clutch is a $500 repair while a auto is a $3500 repair.
My experience on auto's has always been they are good for 100K of normal use. Anything past that you are on borrowed time.
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That was the original question. He did not say how heavy of loads he was considering. I do believe I gave him an honest answer, figured he would decide for himself from that. Now his mind will be overloaded with facts.
Hell YES, any transmission can be broken from overloading. Define "HEAVY LOADS" Being this is a Ford Light truck forum, I could only assume the auto trans. he refered to is the E4OD or the 4R100 capable of 500 ft.-lbs. input.
The ZF5 model #S-5-42 ZF is a German built manual transmission.
S designates a synchronized trans. 5 designates the number of forward gears 42 is the approx.max. input torque in tens of ft-lbs.
42X10 = 420 ft.lbs max. input torque.
It's available in a wide ratio for gas engines and close ratio for diesel engine (7.3)
Wide (Gas) 1st 5.72 2nd 2.94 3rd 1.61 4th 1.0 5th .76 Reverse 5.24
Close (Diesel) 1st 4.14 2nd 2.37 3rd 1.42 4th 1.0 5th.77 Reverse 3.79
AMEN.
Well, my truck is a flatbed tow truck... I figure a heavy vehicle on the bed and one being pulled behind. (It's got a wheel lift attachment.)
Biggest thing I've pulled was a Chevy 1500 extended cab 4x4 pickup. What's that, like 4000 lbs?
So lets round it up for some safety overhead. 5000 lbs, x2... plus the base weight of my truck (about 9500 lbs with fuel and tools)
Total gross weight of 20K lbs loaded. That'd be at the MOST, I think.
Normally, I just pull my track car (2500 lbs) and a set of spare stuff (Engine, transmission, tires, driveshaft, etc.) for the track.
Biggest thing I've pulled was a Chevy 1500 extended cab 4x4 pickup. What's that, like 4000 lbs?
So lets round it up for some safety overhead. 5000 lbs, x2... plus the base weight of my truck (about 9500 lbs with fuel and tools)
Total gross weight of 20K lbs loaded. That'd be at the MOST, I think.
Normally, I just pull my track car (2500 lbs) and a set of spare stuff (Engine, transmission, tires, driveshaft, etc.) for the track.
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