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It is noted for the record that you think it's a dumb idea to use the Navistar pump.

That would definitely make for an erroneous record. I never once said it was a "dumb idea". In fact, I did a user name search just now, and I have never once used the word "dumb" in any post, ever, until this very post just now.

I have only asked questions about why people are going through the pains of installing an IH pump and dealing with a non premolded lower radiator hose, because I'm having trouble seeing any obvious benefits other than the filter boss, which you said is only a fringe benefit, not a factor, in your decision.

I'm just trying to learn why... because my searches about the topic have come up empty handed as far as any proven benefits. There is a big difference between asking questions versus condemnation.

And when someone does answer the questions, but the answers don't make sense to me (like how cast iron bolted to an aluminum cover with a common contact of water in between them is less dissimilar than aluminum bolted to aluminum), I have to ask again, until I understand. That is no more saying that it is a dumb idea than it is saying I am dumb because I don't understand.

I've read posts about the IH pump leaking, and posts about making sure to remove a check ball to take out the original O ring and replace it with a -205 Viton O-ring, and posts about how some lower hoses that were once thought to work ended up not working.

I haven't read (yet) that someone got 250,000 miles out of an IH water pump, whether on a T444e, a 94-97 (where the IH pump retrofits easier) or on a 99-03, which is what would really interest me to know.

One thing your experience with getting 8 years out of your stock Ford water pump (2003-2011) versus 1.5 years out of your CarQuest replacement, is that the Ford water pump is likely to last longer than a generic one from a chain auto store. You are not alone in that report... I've read that 100 times.

But how does one infer from that common experience that the IH pump will be more reliable than the Ford? Just because it is IH? We have enough history to know that IH is not infallible. Just because it is cast iron? We have enough history to know that when gas engines came with stock cast iron water pumps years ago, everybody "upgraded" them with aluminum ones. Ford Motorsports still advertises aluminum water pump upgrades for the older iron engines.

So the record should reflect my curiousity, not my condemnation. I'd like to know whether or not the IH pump is a more reliable water pump for the 99-03, and why. If the reasons put forward make logical sense, and the installations prove to be more reliable than the genuine Ford stock replacement, then I'll consider getting one too.

As of now, the only reasons I'm hearing are that people hope or assume it will be more reliable. That's ok, because none of us can predict failure... but what is it about the IH pump that gives people more hope than the Ford pump? Substituting an unproven solution because a previous solution failed seems similar to putting in an Auto Zone pump because the CarQuest pump failed.

Are there reports of high mileage achieved with an IH pump on a 99-03 without problems like leaks or impeller failure? Are there attributes about the IH pump that haven't been mentioned that I may have missed? That's the kind of info I'm looking for.
 

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OK, reasonable answer. I thought you were just knocking the idea because it was not what Ford put on. I have seen that type of manufacturer knows better than anyone ideology before.

Most folks do not post about positive long term results of a modification. I'll let you know in ten years if the IH pump is still functional. I'll let you know a lot sooner if it fails.

I had to make a decision pretty quick as my truck was leaking badly and I parked the truck. Searching this forum and others I noted comments on many aftermarket pump longevity etc. I can get OEM parts from XL Parts here in Houston a lot cheaper than from the dealer but I rolled the dice on the hope that the cast iron one that IH put on engines going into severe duty commercial vehicles like dump trucks and school buses would last longer than a slightly less expensive (but big total difference per PSD's by Ford).
I apologize for tagging your repeated questioner posts as thinking the mod was dumb. You are just vetting the mod before doing it too. I had to make a quick decision and hope it was sound.
 

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OK, reasonable answer. I thought you were just knocking the idea because it was not what Ford put on. I have seen that type of manufacturer knows better than anyone ideology before.
And I have been guilty of that kind OEM ideology too, more often than not. In fact, one of my favorite quotes is "I want to take full advantage of all the engineering I already paid for with the price of the vehicle" So, it was not an entirely unreasonable attack on your part! :) I just had to step in and clarify, because in this case, no, I too, would like the absolute most reliable water pump money can buy, because I only want to do it once.

The long running (for years) "How many miles on your 7.3 and what have you done to it" thread, proves, if nothing else, that the waterpump ends up on everyone's repair list. My original water pump has lasted 13 years now, and is still going strong, but I don't want to be in the situation where I needed a water pump YESTERDAY, and have to take whatever is handy. I think you've been there done that!

So this preparation ahead of time is intended to avoid succumbing to popular but unproven trends without asking questions first and learning why. I'd rather reveal my ignorance and learn something new than jump on the bandwagon... Get this wheel... oh no, now get this wheel... etc. I want to know why the wheel is being reinvented in the first place. (Metaphorically speaking).

Most folks do not post about positive long term results of a modification.
But some people do! I'm still bragging about what I did to manage my transmission temperatures 10 years after the fact, even though in that 10 years better solutions have been invented. Since it has been 10 years since the last of the 2 million 7.3L were produced, I was thinking surely there would be more early adopters of the IH pump on the 99-03 by now, but where are they?


I'll let you know in ten years if the IH pump is still functional. I'll let you know a lot sooner if it fails.
Thanks! I'll bet a lot of people would be interested to know too.


I apologize for tagging your repeated questioner posts as thinking the mod was dumb. You are just vetting the mod before doing it too.
Thanks again, and you nailed it. Not gonna pick a waterpump because it's cool, but because it cools.
 

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As of now, the only reasons I'm hearing are that people hope or assume it will be more reliable. That's ok, because none of us can predict failure... but what is it about the IH pump that gives people more hope than the Ford pump? Substituting an unproven solution because a previous solution failed seems similar to putting in an Auto Zone pump because the CarQuest pump failed.
I read somewhere that the bearings seemed to be better in the IH pump but I have no facts to back that up. I do like the idea of having the filter directly on the housing but I don't like to options for the lower hose.
 

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Bearings and seals. Now we are talking about water pumps. Because that is what fails in a water pump.

I never understood the obsession with IH water pump because it is "cast iron". Some people seem to associate "cast iron" with "heavier duty." But when was the last time you heard of a water pump housing break?

How and where do water pumps fail? Do the housings split into two? Crack in half? Crumble apart? Disintegrate into metal pieces? No. We never hear of water pump housing failures. We hear of water pump BEARING failures.

So what difference does it make if the housing is made of cast iron or aluminum if neither type of housing represents the problem with water pumps? The difference is that the cast iron housing adds 18 lbs of unnecessary weight to the motor. The cast iron water pump weighs three times more, at 26 lbs, than the Ford aluminum design, at 8 lbs.

The IH T444e was typically spec'd to 190 HP. Many were only 175 HP. Some were 210 HP. A few "high output" versions were 230 HP, and that was maxed out top of the heap.

The 99-03 Ford Powerstroke was spec'd to 235 HP. So in this case the Ford version begins higher than the IH version left off. Then Ford bumped the Automatic version to 250 HP, and the manual trans version to 275 HP.

Before getting into the HP vs Torque argument, consider this... spin speed. That's what wears out bearings. Spinning. And we've already established that bearings are what fails in water pumps, not housings. Leaving peak torque rpm aside then, since peak torque always occurs at a much lower rpm, let's look at the spin speed at peak HP.

The IH T444E makes it's maximum HP at 2,300 RPM. The Ford makes it's maximum HP at 2,750 RPM. The Ford motor is spinning 500 rpm faster at peak horsepower.

The engine speed on the IH redlines at 2,600 RPM. The Ford redlines at 3,300 RPM.

The medium duty trucks and school busses are speed limited to 65 mph. The Ford pickups are speed limited to 94 mph.

Which water pump bearing can be expected to spin faster at peak power?
 

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My pump is still functioning flawlessly. I know it is a short time since install but I need to post up good reports periodically rather than a failure many years in the future. I have not replaced the filter but when I do I will save it and perhaps take the sawsall to cut it in half for inspection and pics for posting. My truck has not previously had a filter so we will see how much sand is there.

Cheers.
David
 

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Just a heads up...did my second install of these pumps for a customer, ordered the most recent one from rockauto under gates P/N for like $140ish, and its a NEW pump. WP gasket was busted coming outta the box looks like the pump cut it in half in a spot, but RA sent a felpro gasket out the next day.

Anyhow, the main thing I felt I should comment on, the NAPA 8763 hose does not fit, per my having both the FM-124 and the 8763 on hand. Dunno if it works on OBS trucks but it will not do on a 99+ Superduty.

Had I seen it I prolly would have ordered the kit from Dieselsite for the customer since the proper molded hose is nice and he wouldn't mind paying more for the whole thing coming from one place ect. For the future now I know...

I hate that I can't put one of these on my truck due to having Dual Alternators, would gladly give up an alt so that I can have a cast iron pump and coolant filter as one assembly.
 

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im sure you can just buy a length of straight radiator hose and it will work.

not to mention the pump from dieselsite is 400 bones :icon_rolleyes:
 

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So if one does this mod and blows a hose while out of town where does this hose come from Dieselsite?
:lol: Thank you!

im sure you can just buy a length of straight radiator hose and it will work.
If straight hoses worked so well, then why do auto parts stores devote 60-100 linear feet of very valuable retail, backroom, and warehouse shelf and wall space, at sky high leasing rates, just to stock pre molded hoses?

If straight hoses worked so well, then why do automakers continue to endure the costly burden of designing, manufacturing, and then managing thousands of different production molded hoses, when they could eliminate all that inventory down to just one part, cut to length?


not to mention the pump from dieselsite is 400 bones :icon_rolleyes:
That's another thing I can't figure out. If the water pump that Dieselsite is selling is a genuine water pump from International, why not just go to an International dealer and get it directly from them?

I understand about site sponsorship and the value add of having all the hoses, fittings, and instructions come in one box, but like Nick said... at some point on the side of the road, there won't be a middle man to hold one's hand.
 

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You make a good point NYB, for ease of fitment and the availability of parts when broke down in the middle of no where I'm thinking I'll go with the genuine pump.:ford: Just seems like a lot of unnecessary work for not much gain.
 

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Discussion Starter #55
You make a good point NYB, for ease of fitment and the availability of parts when broke down in the middle of no where I'm thinking I'll go with the genuine pump.:ford: Just seems like a lot of unnecessary work for not much gain.
If your truck's put together right, and maintained, from the get-go, it won't breakdown "in the middle of no where"... :lol:
 

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Discussion Starter #56 (Edited)
Bearings and seals. Now we are talking about water pumps. Because that is what fails in a water pump.

I never understood the obsession with IH water pump because it is "cast iron". Some people seem to associate "cast iron" with "heavier duty." But when was the last time you heard of a water pump housing break?

How and where do water pumps fail? Do the housings split into two? Crack in half? Crumble apart? Disintegrate into metal pieces? No. We never hear of water pump housing failures. We hear of water pump BEARING failures.

So what difference does it make if the housing is made of cast iron or aluminum if neither type of housing represents the problem with water pumps? The difference is that the cast iron housing adds 18 lbs of unnecessary weight to the motor. The cast iron water pump weighs three times more, at 26 lbs, than the Ford aluminum design, at 8 lbs.

The IH T444e was typically spec'd to 190 HP. Many were only 175 HP. Some were 210 HP. A few "high output" versions were 230 HP, and that was maxed out top of the heap.

The 99-03 Ford Powerstroke was spec'd to 235 HP. So in this case the Ford version begins higher than the IH version left off. Then Ford bumped the Automatic version to 250 HP, and the manual trans version to 275 HP.

Before getting into the HP vs Torque argument, consider this... spin speed. That's what wears out bearings. Spinning. And we've already established that bearings are what fails in water pumps, not housings. Leaving peak torque rpm aside then, since peak torque always occurs at a much lower rpm, let's look at the spin speed at peak HP.

The IH T444E makes it's maximum HP at 2,300 RPM. The Ford makes it's maximum HP at 2,750 RPM. The Ford motor is spinning 500 rpm faster at peak horsepower.

The engine speed on the IH redlines at 2,600 RPM. The Ford redlines at 3,300 RPM.

The medium duty trucks and school busses are speed limited to 65 mph. The Ford pickups are speed limited to 94 mph.

Which water pump bearing can be expected to spin faster at peak power?
Well, I guess the bottom line is: If YOU can't see any gain to putting a Navistar pump on your truck, THEN DON'T DO IT! :lol:

With regard to your horsepower comments: as it relates to the cooling system, it's the radiator that would have some (or more) bearing or effect on a horsepower rating, not the water pump. The pump just moves the coolant...It's the radiator that's doing the [cooling] work.

"Spin speed": The pump's RPM is more of a function of the pulley sizes rather than the actual engine speed, for a given engine/setup. In my case, neither the crank nor pump pulleys were changed from the original Ford configuration, therefore the water-moving aspect (i.e. pump RPM) is the same as the original pump. Still staying cool, though.

"Bearings" are NOT what usually fails in a water pump. It's the shaft seal that USUALLY fails first, causing a leak. Bearings do fail, and a failed bearing can cause the shaft to wear the seal, which then (again) leaks. But most failures are an "...Oh S--t, my water pump's leaking!"

And you're right, the aluminum vs. cast-iron thing is really irrelevant. But I'll be damned if I can find an aluminum pump with the coolant filter built in!

As far as bearings go: well, only time will tell. I just know from experience (wrenching on these engines) that very few Ford pumps go more than 125-175K mi. Yet the Navistar pumps will go 250K +, so something's different, and it's not just engine/pump RPM's!

Thanks for your comments though...
 

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Discussion Starter #57 (Edited)
bumping this thread - any other updates on this IH pump? Is this the way to go - or stay oem with external filtration...
I'm the OP of this thread:

The pump is still in and still working perfectly...no issues.
 

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Discussion Starter #58
BTW, the "Navistar" pump setup being sold as a "kit" on a certain vendor website is NOT a "factory" IH (Navistar) pump.

After a close examination of the pictures on the vendor site, the pump they are selling is almost guaranteed to be a cheap Chinese knock-off.

There are certain characteristic marks that are on a "real" Navistar pump, and theirs does NOT have them.

I would not expect a Chinese POS to have the quality of the real thing...nor the life expectancy.
 

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Not that it really matters but the IH pumps from Gates and from a school bus waterpump site on the net that I cant recall the name of are both made new in the USA. I have put these pumps on a few trucks, first one was from the school bus company, and came from CA from a company in CA making them here in the US. Dunno where Gates makes thier IH pumps but the box said Made in USA on it, and was identical to the one I had gotten a year earlier. Had I not ground off the casting numbers I would have been able to check to see if they were from the same mold.

The gates one was cheaper and arrived in a day from rockauto, sadly I cant put one on my own truck thanks to the dual alternators. I love having two alts but would give it up the 2nd one in favor of having a cast iron IH pump, but its more work than is worth I think.
 
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