The Diesel Stop banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 8 of 8 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I think my starter on my '84 6.9 F250 just died. I know that a gear reduction type starter is a new option for these motors. When I look for starters at Autozone, I get a choice of direct drive or gear reduction, almost the same price.

Is there any reason to choose a direct drive starter over a gear reduction starter? The gear unit should spin faster and be lighter...right? If I bring in a direct drive starter as a core for a gear drive, are they going to get upset?

Is it possible anybody makes a 24 volt starter for this motor? I couldn't find anything in google. I'd love to convert the whole truck to 24v.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,212 Posts
One more time. Keep opinions out and use facts. Follow the rules. If this continues, timeouts will follow.
Bob
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,604 Posts
If you buy at AutoZone they don't care what style of starter you bring as a core. FWIW I would use the gear reduction.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,195 Posts
I think my starter on my '84 6.9 F250 just died.
Since you're not sure, take it to someone who can diagnose it definitively. If you've misdiagnosed it, any repair you attempt will be a waste of time & money since it won't fix the root problem. If you want to do some more checking, start by reading the captions of this photo album:

When I look for starters at Autozone...
Stay out of the zone. You can get VASTLY superior parts at the same or lower price from Amazon, eBay, RockAuto, Ford-authorized etailers, better local parts stores, and sometimes even at the Ford dealership.
Is there any reason to choose a direct drive starter over a gear reduction starter?
Lower current draw is the main advantage of PMGR starters.
The gear unit should spin faster and be lighter...right?
No. Same speed, and about the same weight, if not more.
I'd love to convert the whole truck to 24v.
That will create a lot of problems; not only during the process itself, but in the future (maintenance, accessories...).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Stay out of the zone. You can get VASTLY superior parts at the same or lower price from Amazon, eBay, RockAuto, Ford-authorized etailers, better local parts stores, and sometimes even at the Ford dealership
The only one I would be looking at is the Duralast with the lifetime warranty, which only works out to about $75 after my 20% discount and the $35 gift card/free shipping they are offering right now. Only problem is it's a reman and I decided to spend a few more bucks on a new unit and keep my core for later. The Duralast looks like a Mitsubishi to me but I'm not sure.


Lower current draw is the main advantage of PMGR starters.No. Same speed, and about the same weight, if not more.
Sorry, but that is incorrect. Now that I have done my research, (other forums have been much more helpful) the consensus is that gear reduction starters are better in every way. They spin faster, weigh less, and use less amps. They do cost a couple bucks more. The decrease in weight and physical size makes them easier to install. They are also more reliable due to decreased shock loading. It's why all the new diesels come with them, it's a technological improvement. It was OEM even on the later production IDI motors.

It is important to note that aftermarket gear reduction starters are available with 2.5KW, 3.6KW, and 4.0KW motors. Obviously lower power is cheaper but won't spin your motor quite as fast. Not everybody realizes there are different power levels available. I chose a 3.6KW Mitsubishi, which was only $115 brand new, no core.

That will create a lot of problems; not only during the process itself, but in the future (maintenance, accessories...).
Obviously you missed the discussion that was here before posts were deleted, but please, take RDG's advice, facts only, not opinions.

The FACTS are that 24v uses half the amps, which reduces load on electrical systems, thereby reducing maintenance. 12v accessories can still easily be powered by a simple, cheap, and efficient 24v to 12v step down converter. 24v lights burn brighter. 24v starters spin faster. All with smaller wire. You can also install a 24v starter on a 12v dual battery electrical system, you simply need to purchase a series/parallel switch used in big rigs to do this. About $80.

Maintenance has little to do with voltage, maybe a part or two could be harder to find being a different voltage, but I buy everything on the internet anyway. Everything you could ever need is available, at very economical prices. Most 12v accessories like gauges can be used with a simple DC/DC converter. ($20 or so) You can even still have a 12v cigarette lighter if you want.

I do not currently have time to spend cross referencing starters so I will be installing a 12v unit temporarily, but yes, I do believe there is a 24v starter that will bolt on and work with the 6.9/7.3 IDIs. Just a matter of finding it. People on other forums are reporting good results with a starter from a Cummins motor. The starter used in these motors is a relatively universal unit used on many different diesel engines in many applications.

This is not a post about 24 volt electrical systems however, so please do not respond here about such things unless you have a part number for a 24 volt direct fit starter. Thanks. If anybody wants to talk further about 24v electrical systems please feel free to PM me or start another thread where I would be happy to discuss it with you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,195 Posts
The facts are that the zone sells the cheapest junk it can find, and the only way they stay in business is to advertise LLT warranty on that junk, banking that they can deny enough of them to turn a profit. That's how the CEO can afford to keep his Ferrari on a 2-post lift (so the tires don't flat-spot) in the hangar for the corporate jet. I know because I fixed the roof leaks. Another fact is: he doesn't use any parts from the zone on that car, or the jet, or his Suburban, or his Jeep, or any of his other vehicles that the A&P works on for him. He only wants to sell those parts to YOU.

And just because one company makes 2 starters under different labels doesn't mean they're the same quality. Ford makes the Taurus, and the Contour. Johnson Controls makes the MotorCraft TestedTough battery, and the Optima & Duralast. So even if Mitsubishi makes both starters, the one that the zone specs will be substantially inferior to the one Mitsubishi puts its own name on - that's why it's so much cheaper. You're not getting what you don't pay for.

Consensus used to be that the Earth was flat; consensus is that gun laws reduce violent crime; consensus is that consensus is useless. The fact is that I'm still using a direct-drive starter with over 700Kmi on it, without a rebuild. Try that with a PMGR - you'll be lucky to get 250Kmi on one. And my starter only needs 1 wire, which makes it simpler to connect than a PMGR's 2. That's 2 ways so far that my direct is in fact better than a PMGR; you admitted it's cheaper, so that's 3 ways, making your statement about "better in every way" more opinion than fact.

IDK where you got your info about weight, but I'd like to see those facts. My engine was originally built with a direct-drive starter (back in the 50s), but by the time production ended (in '96), it came with a PMGR. So comparing starter weights for it is apples-to-apples, and I happen to have both starters. Their weights are too close to tell a difference by hand. Not that a few ounces (or even pounds) is significant on a fullsize diesel truck...

Likewise, I'm curious where you're seeing speeds listed for these starters to make that comparison. I did a little browsing, and not one retailer listed cranking RPM for any starter. Got a link to the ones you found those facts on?

But since we agree that a gear-reduction starter draws less current, and that as a result, the wire can be smaller & still carry the load; and since your truck's original was a 12V direct-drive (with heavier wire), and that the truck obviously started fine with it for many years... We can agree that any 24V conversion is unnecessarily expensive & complex, so that's 2 more reasons NOT to consider it. If you have cranking problems with a good direct-replacement starter, then swapping to a 24V starter would only mask the root problem until it gets worse. Same for swapping to gear-reduction (which would be cheaper, quicker, & easier than the voltage conversion); neither will FIX the root problem, which is most likely batteries, battery terminals, or starter cable terminals. Did you read the captions in that photo album yet?

The FACTS are that 24v uses half the amps, which reduces load on electrical systems, thereby reducing maintenance.
...
Maintenance has little to do with voltage...
Fact: you contradicted yourself.
Fact: maintenance is NOT based strictly on electrical load, and has nothing to do with voltage. But having 2 electrical systems, or converting a 12V vehicle to 24V DOES make maintenance on that vehicle more difficult.
Fact: light output is NOT based strictly on voltage.
Fact: motor speed is NOT based strictly on voltage.
Fact: $80 is about double what it would cost to build a 12-24 dual battery switching circuit. Here are 2 cheap ones, with a more-expensive one described in the caption:

Fact: I've designed, built, installed, maintained, modified, diagnosed, & repaired complete vehicle wiring systems from an antique Jeep to a modern Range Rover (with 5 data networks & 2 optical networks) and quite a few in between, so my opinions are based on many relevant facts. Not just on snippets of internet discussions.


BTW
This discussion is called a "thread" because it wanders all over the topic (which YOU chose in your first post) like thread being unspooled onto the floor. Since YOU made a 24V system part of this discussion, it will always be part of this discussion. No need to start another thread.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
I'm not going to reply to most of your post because it is random and full of erroneous opinions, but I do need to correct a few facts.

The facts are that the zone sells the cheapest junk it can find, and the only way they stay in business
Please provide just one reference for this "fact".

So even if Mitsubishi makes both starters, the one that the zone specs will be substantially inferior to the one Mitsubishi puts its own name on - that's why it's so much cheaper. You're not getting what you don't pay for.
Do you have any facts to back that up? The genuine Mitsubishi I bought was actually cheaper than Autozone's reman Mitsubishi, so your point is totally invalid.

The fact is that I'm still using a direct-drive starter with over 700Kmi on it, without a rebuild. Try that with a PMGR - you'll be lucky to get 250Kmi on one. And my starter only needs 1 wire, which makes it simpler to connect than a PMGR's 2. That's 2 ways so far that my direct is in fact better than a PMGR; you admitted it's cheaper, so that's 3 ways, making your statement about "better in every way" more opinion than fact.
You should maybe have some idea what you are talking about before you say things like that. That's great you got that much mileage out of your starter, I still want a gear reduction unit. Gear reduction starters wire up exactly the same as the direct drive, whatever extra wire you are talking about does not exist outside of your head. :lol:

IDK where you got your info about weight, but I'd like to see those facts.
LOL! That's the entire thing "about" gear reduction starters. More power in a smaller package. The gears allow a smaller motor. Why do you think they draw less amps? You really have no idea what you are talking about. Weight is a significant feature for easier installation.

Likewise, I'm curious where you're seeing speeds listed for these starters to make that comparison.
Every person that ever had one says so, and I find your opinions useless. That's where I see it. Manufacturers do not list cranking speeds for their starters because that is not possible for them to know. Every engine will be different. Different batteries. Different cables. Different displacements and compression ratios.

But since we agree that a gear-reduction starter draws less current, and that as a result, the wire can be smaller & still carry the load; and since your truck's original was a 12V direct-drive (with heavier wire), and that the truck obviously started fine with it for many years...
No, we don't agree on any of those things.

We can agree that any 24V conversion is unnecessarily expensive & complex, so that's 2 more reasons NOT to consider it.
Did anybody ask your opinion? It sure wasn't me. Please do not put words in my mouth, we do not agree on anything. If I did we would both be wrong.

Since YOU made a 24V system part of this discussion, it will always be part of this discussion. No need to start another thread.
Let me be VERY clear. I DID NOT ask about 24v systems. I asked if starters were available or not. Simple yes or no question. Did not request any opinion or ask any question about a 24v electrical system.

The rest of your post is honestly not worth reading or responding to. Once again facts only please.

I am having a great discussion by PM with another member about 24v electrical systems, anybody else is welcome to join if they use facts. It is not relevant here.
 
1 - 8 of 8 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top