[bgiebels]

that is how to condemn an hpop. hopefully you don't have an hpop issue, they aren't to terribly common for 05 and up.

Cool, I'm not getting any air, whatsoever, out of the oil filter reservoir.


Hopefully, I'll put this back together this evening, and it will start after I prime the High Pressure Oil system.


Thanks, again.

 

[bgiebels]

Its not the rails themselves you are testing.

Agreed. I was incorrectly using rails instead of all the parts on the rails (i.e. Injector Cups, Dummy Plugs, Stand Pipe) or one of the permanent plugs that are in the rail.


Having said that... After I put the new ICP on, and put the Glow Plug Control unit back on, I turned the key to the on position, but didn't start the truck, and to my surprise the oil pressure gauge didn't budge. It had before, so I took the oil filter out to see if the reservoir would fill up if I cranked the engine, with the keys out. The oil filled no problem. Must be that the batteries were too low. I put the battery charger on, and took a break for about an hour. I went back out and hooked up my EA scanner. Battery voltage was good so I went ahead and cranked the engine. It took about 20 seconds but the truck started and ran pretty good for about 10 - 20 seconds... then stopped.

Unfortunately, I forgot to put the oil filter back in and I spilled the oil all over the place until the oil got so low the engine shut down...

I'm going to be cleaning up oil for a while but I believe whatever I've done so far has removed the leak and I should be able to button it all back up. Before I do, I'll replace the oil (of course) and start it again and take some readings with the EA and see if there needs to be any injectors replaced on the passenger side before I call it good.

Either way, some progress made.... along with a big mess!

Any suggestions on a decent engine cleaner I should use?

Thanks,

 

[bgiebels]

Small Update:

I cleaned up my oil mess from last night and replaced the oil that had spilled out. I primed the system and the truck started after 10-15 seconds. While I wasn't impressed with that, it was the first start (well kinda second start given the start last night that ended up putting oil all over the garage floor). I then let it sit as I retrieved my computer from the house (a few minutes), and came back. After sitting a few minutes, the truck took significantly longer, and a few tries, to get it to start. Once it was started, I performed some tests...

IPR (during Idle) = 40%
ICP climbed from nothing to 500 somewhat slowly then started and then maintained about 540ish while idling
ICP Voltage was about 1.7ish

Everything looked decent, while it was running. I also performed a Power Balance test and, while idling, everything looked nice and flat(ish). It looks like #3 was a little bit stronger and #5 a tad weaker than the rest.


I shut it off, after running a good 5 minutes. And let it sit for a few minutes. Went to start it again and it took another 20 seconds to start.

Something I noted:
- Before I had this problem, the Oil Gauge would indicate I had base oil pressure almost immediately (a few seconds). Well before the glow plug indicator extinguished. Now, the oil pressure gauge only rises, right before the engine starts. I've had the oil filter out and tested for Base Oil Pressure as well and it seemed to be okay but I don't have a real good feel for how long it should take to fill the reservoir.

I do have a question:
I've done the air test and have reported I hear air coming from, what seems to be, the #3 injector but I'm not an expert here. When the STC fitting is bad, I believe that is indicated by the air leak from within the valve covers. But Where under the Valve Covers? If it could be anywhere under the valve covers, then what I "think" I am hearing coming from Injector #3, could very well be the STC fitting issue.

I guess I may have found my answer
In the Ford Procedure TSB 08-18-6 it says "if is isolated to the back of the engine, proceed to replace the STC fitting. "If it is detected under the valve cover, proceed to Under Valve Cover Air Leak Test Procedure". In the "Under the Valve Cover..." procedure it says... Listen for air leaks around the fuel injectors, D-Rings and Fuel Rail Plugs at both high pressure oil rails. If leaks are found repair as necessary".

I guess that indicates, based on what I am hearing, that the problem is neither the HPOP nor the STC fitting but rather something under the valve cover (i.e. Dummy Plugs, Stand Pipe, and Injector Seals)…


Thank you,

 

[jimmy]

The idle pressure is on target but that pressure should be IPR of 23-24%. 40% shows it is leaking, poor pump performance or oil issues. Given your testing the leak is the likely cause. With the leak the 20 seconds cranking is to be expected when oil is warm or hot. Injector top seal or ball tube, the tube from rail that sticks into injector are possibilities in addition to rail items like dummy plugs, attenuator plugs, stand pipes seals, and the small plugs. Some of these you have already replaced or checked.

 

[bismic]

Small Update:

I guess I may have found my answer
In the Ford Procedure TSB 08-18-6 it says "if is isolated to the back of the engine, proceed to replace the STC fitting. "If it is detected under the valve cover, proceed to Under Valve Cover Air Leak Test Procedure". In the "Under the Valve Cover..." procedure it says... Listen for air leaks around the fuel injectors, D-Rings and Fuel Rail Plugs at both high pressure oil rails. If leaks are found repair as necessary".

I guess that indicates, based on what I am hearing, that the problem is neither the HPOP nor the STC fitting but rather something under the valve cover (i.e. Dummy Plugs, Stand Pipe, and Injector Seals)…


Thank you,

Been trying to communicate that to you!

The typical time to fill the oil filter housing when cranking is:
10-13 seconds without the drain valve depressed
3-4 seconds with the drain valve depressed

Lastly - remember that when you have been doing air tests, it may run rough and the numbers may be "a little off" until you run the truck long enough (and hard enough) to push all of the air out.

 

[bobofthenorth]

Lastly - remember that when you have been doing air tests, it may run rough and the numbers may be "a little off" until you run the truck long enough (and hard enough) to push all of the air out.

What ^^^^^ he ^^^^^ said.

When I did mine I buggered around for weeks before finally believing the man. At that point I buttoned everything up and went for a drive. As long as I let it sit in the shop I was getting 15 second crank times every time but a road trip with a few WOT runs brought the crank times back to normal.

BTW, it sounds to me like you still have a leak. You can confirm that by putting shop air to it with a gauge and then shutting off the air supply. If it holds pressure its not leaking. If the gauge goes down you've got more work to do.

 

[bgiebels]

Been trying to communicate that to you!

The typical time to fill the oil filter housing when cranking is:
10-13 seconds without the drain valve depressed
3-4 seconds with the drain valve depressed

Lastly - remember that when you have been doing air tests, it may run rough and the numbers may be "a little off" until you run the truck long enough (and hard enough) to push all of the air out.

Sorry I've been so thick headed. LOL

So I've replaced the following:
- Ball Tube Replace with New O-Rings
- All 3 seals and copper compression ring on all Injectors on Passenger Side
- All 4 injectors on the Driver Side (2, 4, 6, 8)
- Stand Pipe (but went back to original as the sinister diesel Stand Pipe didn't fit correctly)
- Dummy Plug (but went back to original as the sinister diesel Stand Pipe didn't fit correctly)

After all those replacements, I still have a leak... and it "Seems" to be around the #3 injector... What else is there? Maybe I should move the injectors around and see if it follows the injector. Then possible replace that injector if it is bad. I wonder if there is a way to test the injector, itself, by pulling it out and putting air directly in the top seal area. I think they have rubberized air attachment that might fit in that location. Other than that, I'm at a loss at what could be the problem.

Again, any suggestions of where to go next?


I will say, I purchased a used oil rail as the original had the ICP break off at the Rail and instead of trying to drill out the ICP I just bought a used one... I guess the rail itself could be cracked but its nothing I can see with the naked eye.

 

[bgiebels]

What ^^^^^ he ^^^^^ said.

When I did mine I buggered around for weeks before finally believing the man. At that point I buttoned everything up and went for a drive. As long as I let it sit in the shop I was getting 15 second crank times every time but a road trip with a few WOT runs brought the crank times back to normal.

BTW, it sounds to me like you still have a leak. You can confirm that by putting shop air to it with a gauge and then shutting off the air supply. If it holds pressure its not leaking. If the gauge goes down you've got more work to do.

I can certainly do the gauge with the air line and shut off valve but I can "hear" an air leak under the rail around injector #3 (2nd from the front on passenger side). I pinpointed it in that area by using a length of tubing which I put one end in my ear and the other under the rail at different locations until I believe I pinpointed it to the #3 injector area. I can't imagine the air will stay in if I can hear the leak... right?

One other question/comment: When I run the engine for a minute or two, then shut the engine off, and then start it again after about 30 seconds, it starts in about 5 to 10 seconds. If I wait 5 to 10 minutes to start again, it will take 30 seconds while the pressure builds up. I'm assuming yours did not have that difference in starting times???

I appreciate the advice. You all have been giving me things to try and look at.

 

[bobofthenorth]

One other question/comment: When I run the engine for a minute or two, then shut the engine off, and then start it again after about 30 seconds, it starts in about 5 to 10 seconds. If I wait 5 to 10 minutes to start again, it will take 30 seconds while the pressure builds up. I'm assuming yours did not have that difference in starting times??.

My crank time was longer if it sat overnight but I don't remember the exact number.

I agree with you that it sounds like you still have a leak somewhere. I got to a point where I couldn't hear a leak but I stubbornly refused to finish closing the engine up and driving it because I didn't believe that there could really be that much air left in the rails. Evidently there was.

 

[Ford06]

It could be the nipple cup seals on the oil rail. They should not be floppy. They don't normally go bad, but I understand that leaky injector orings can cause the high pressure oil to eat into the nipple cuo seals.

 

[bismic]

I think pulling injector #3 and re-oringing it would be an acceptable approach, depending on how many miles was on it.

Also, replacing one injector out of the bank doesn't have any down sides, if you wanted to go that direction.

 

[bgiebels]

It could be the nipple cup seals on the oil rail. They should not be floppy. They don't normally go bad, but I understand that leaky injector orings can cause the high pressure oil to eat into the nipple cuo seals.

Yep, I have already replaced those (Ball Tube & Orings). Thanks though,

 

[bgiebels]

I think pulling injector #3 and re-oringing it would be an acceptable approach, depending on how many miles was on it.

Also, replacing one injector out of the bank doesn't have any down sides, if you wanted to go that direction.

I've already put new orings on all of the (1, 3, 5, 7) injectors. The injectors on the other side are all new.

Are you saying to "re"-re-oring the injector?

I think I'm going to move the injectors around to see if the noise follows the injector. That will give me a good idea if the problem is the injector or the rail (i.e. Ball tube & Seal). Since I have the injector out, I can put another new seal on it.

thanks,

 

[bismic]

Yup, I was saying re-re, lol. It is easy to nick one of those o-rings. The oil rail needs to be lowered on as straight and as evenly as possible. Oil up the injector tops!! Not quite getting a good seal on the ball tube seal is a possibility also. Good idea to check. A lot of techs actually don't recommend messing with those unless they are pretty loose.

 

[bgiebels]

Yup, I was saying re-re, lol. It is easy to nick one of those o-rings. The oil rail needs to be lowered on as straight and as evenly as possible. Oil up the injector tops!! Not quite getting a good seal on the ball tube seal is a possibility also. Good idea to check. A lot of techs actually don't recommend messing with those unless they are pretty loose.

I have the parts to "re-re" seal the injector, it certainly isn't going to hurt anything. I'll do a better job of lubing the ball tubes up when installing the rail. I did notice that the rail wasn't exactly seating evenly so I also want to check to ensure there is nothing in the way, like an injector wire as well.

We'll give that a try and see what happens... That passenger side is a little harder to get the torque wrench into the back lower bolts but that shouldn't have the affect of a leaking #3 injector... but who knows...

Thanks Bismic,

 

[bgiebels]

Well everyone, I welded a bolt to the remains of the ICP, on my old rail, and got it out. I then replaced the "new-used" rail with the original one (didn't mess with the ball tubes) and after priming the HPO system the truck started in about 6 seconds. I shut it off and waited 20 seconds and the truck started in about 6 seconds...

I figured that was better than what I had been seeing so I put it all back together. Took it out for a run and found that the Boost Reading was low but the truck had boost. I looked at it again and saw that I busted off the nipple on the Absolute Pressure Sensor... So I'm blaming that for right now.... I"ve got another on order.

I took it out again and drove for about 15 minutes and put the peddle to the floor a few times (it definitely has boost). Got it back and let it sit for 7-8 hours... started right up.

Either the "new-used" rail had something wrong with it, I messed up when I replaced the ball tube seals, or I simply got lucky on putting the old rail back in and it sealed correctly... but it is now up and running.

Thanks to everyone for the help on this!