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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ok I know I'm going to catch some flack for this question but ya'll be gentle on me. Please try to get me a few answers before you beat my :spank: about it. I am more interested in the actual refinery processor.

This question is NOT about bio-diesel or black diesel. I have only found one website wasteoildiesel dot com offering small back yard builders size as I think of those sets of plans for a waste motor oil refinery. The guy claims in emails that there is no remaining waste product it either burns it as fuel or produces diesel or jet fuel if I raised temp which sounds good to me. The plans are a little pricey so I was looking for some input form someone other then the guy selling the plans if you know what I mean.

1) I was wondering if anyone has used or have tried these plans an how it worked for them?:confused013:

2) does anyone know of any other "for sale" or "free PDF" refinery/processor plans online to refine waste motor oil to diesel ? :confused013:

3) other then the temp requirements how much difference is there in a waste oil refinery (small scale) compared to a reflux still for moonshine or ethanol ? :confused013:

4) the site I found , the guy did not mention cleaning the waste motor oil first but I would use a centrifuge to clean it anyway. If you refine waste motor oil to diesel (not bio-diesel or black diesel) let me know if you clean your oil first and if not do you see any difference :confused013:
 

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Heating waste oil to the temps some refiners/blenders do to distill black diesel scares the begeeses out of me. Read this thread Dark Diesel - Oil to Diesel Forums 500-700 degrees is an explosive level.
 

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I'm not sure there are any threads on this site abut refining waste oil. This is mostly about filtering or centrifuging which is centrifugal force filtering. If your going to refine waste motor oil, buy some life insurance and build your house in the next county.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
thanks for the info on that site I'll check over there and see what I can find out.


I wasn't sure if anyone would have but had to ask and I know just cleaning the WMO and or mixing black diesel is much more common practice and probably just plain easier for most people to do.

yes I agree pretty much everything you can think of can kill you form the car you drive to the food you eat you just have to pay attention to what your doing heck when your reloading ammunition you hear "it will blow up and kill you" "get insurance" when your blasting dams you hear "it will blow up and kill you" "get insurance" when you used run moonshine stills you hear "it will blow up and kill you" "get insurance"when you weld gas tanks you hear "it will blow up and kill you" "get insurance" when you get rid of a exwife you hear "it will blow up and kill you" "get insurance".......... ok well maybe the last one is dangerous :no: point is nothing is absolutely safe everything has a level of danger and most of the time I would say it has to do with human error.


I did say "small" when talking about refinery and planed on a contiuos drip system even if it did chacth fire it woudl have limited fuel and if it exploded as you appeared to be worried about the blast would be minimal (unless your standing right next to it) three sided block walls in the general area would further help shield any shock waves form a accidental explosion
 

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I was not trying to make fun of you. We are mixing gasoline with used motor which is dangerous enough as it is. And you are right, there is a lot of hand wringing going on and you have to be careful. Re-refining used motor oil is probably the best way to make fuel, but it would seem expensive to me in that your equipment may (I know nothing about this) be expensive and you have to use fuel to make heat, certainly that kind of heat. We have our own arguments here about what is the "best" and least expensive way and the ultimate quality of our fuel. Time will tell on a lot of it. Good luck with your project. Please let us know how your fuel turns out.
 

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Operating a distillation column is a simple process as long as one understands it. While a simple reflux still used for making moon shine works under the same principle, a multi-staged distillation column packed with boiling chips is a much more elegant solution. However, the entire column MUST be purged with inert gas at all times during the application of heat. Nitrogen is the common purge gas, but CO2 will most probably work. Propane, as suggested by someone else on another forum, would only be dangerous. And, filtering or centrifuging the waste oil before hand is meaningless. Yes, you can use the waste from your distillation to fuel the process. The basic problem is there will be too few light fractions and too much heavy fractions to make the process economical.

However, the point of blending is taking fractions that are too light for diesel engines and combining them with fractions that are too heavy for diesel engines and coming up with a blend that runs efficiently in diesel engines.

PS:
I just looked at the website wasteoildiesel dot com. Forget it. They have no idea how to build or operate a proper distillation column.
 

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Jeffery S Brooks has got it right on target. The minimal risk is why I am doing it the filter/blend method. Yes there are risks in everything you do. I reload my own ammunition, hunt, love high performance cars, boats and work as a jet aircraft mechanic so I guess risks are a part of my life. After working on fighter airplanes and airliners for 38 years you learn to use common sense in your endeavors. Every time I start a jet engine (literally a controlled explosion) I say my favorite prayer " Lord don't let me screw up". When you perform risky tasks you look and then look again.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I was not trying to make fun of you. We are mixing gasoline with used motor which is dangerous enough as it is. And you are right, there is a lot of hand wringing going on and you have to be careful. Re-refining used motor oil is probably the best way to make fuel, but it would seem expensive to me in that your equipment may (I know nothing about this) be expensive and you have to use fuel to make heat, certainly that kind of heat. We have our own arguments here about what is the "best" and least expensive way and the ultimate quality of our fuel. Time will tell on a lot of it. Good luck with your project. Please let us know how your fuel turns out.

no problem I just took it as discussion not making fun its all good:thumbsup: I looked at the mixes of diesel/WMO and could do that just would prefer to set up something that makes me more self sufficient the first time around if that makes sense. with the mix I still have to buy some amount of diesel which is cheaper to begin with but over time is more expensive at least in my mind who knows I may still end up going that route down the road
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Operating a distillation column is a simple process as long as one understands it. While a simple reflux still used for making moon shine works under the same principle, a multi-staged distillation column packed with boiling chips is a much more elegant solution. However, the entire column MUST be purged with inert gas at all times during the application of heat. Nitrogen is the common purge gas, but CO2 will most probably work. Propane, as suggested by someone else on another forum, would only be dangerous.

However, the point of blending is taking fractions that are too light for diesel engines and combining them with fractions that are too heavy for diesel engines and coming up with a blend that runs efficiently in diesel engines.

PS:
I just looked at the website wasteoildiesel dot com. Forget it. They have no idea how to build or operate a proper distillation column.
ya I woundered if a moonshine reflux still woudl be eth same principal at least i am fairmilar with those but the only thing I found on line was the site I mentioned and did not appear like anything I was accused to so I questioned myself if that refinery works then what is the reason for the difference


And, filtering or centrifuging the waste oil before hand is meaningless. Yes, you can use the waste from your distillation to fuel the process. The basic problem is there will be too few light fractions and too much heavy fractions to make the process economical.
I was thinking running it through a centrifuge before the boiler mite be a little over board but figure the cleaner it is going in the less likely it could cause me problems. thanks that directly answers two of my questions
 

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vwlove - I understand the basic principles of how it works, but it seems like a very elaborate system for really small production. I don't see how it could be economically feasible. I'm not sure I would want flammable vapor running around loose in my building.
 

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vwlove - I understand the basic principles of how it works, but it seems like a very elaborate system for really small production. I don't see how it could be economically feasible. I'm not sure I would want flammable vapor running around loose in my building.

I dont think there is any way to make distillation less complicated. All he has is a boiler then the gas goes into a copper coil that has a water jacket over it to aid cooling. To be economically fesible I think the kicker is using the WMO to fire the burner. If you are distilling I also dont see how you can not have flammable vapor because that will come out of the oil first.

There is a part one of that video where the guy explains about it. It did seem like a very small amount of diesel for the work but he I think he said he gets something like 80% diesel for every liter he cooks. He also said it takes 1.5 liters per hour to run the burner.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I actual already talked with that guy, very nice and helpful, he is in the Netherlands and this was a smaller test version that he built form scrap he found laying around. He has now started building a larger unit which he said has more safety features. The copper coil actual is the water jacket inside the SS condenser it seems to be allot of the same principals as a alcohol still but very different set you. the flammable vapor your talking about escaping I believe would be corrected with a little better condenser and is just wasted diesel not recovered but his test was to make one that worked before improving and enlarging .


just like with oldtime moonshiners the bigger the still the more finished product they could turn out but distilling has always been a time consuming process it ain't no microwave. :lol: I my self need about 3 gallons per day (or around 100 gallons a month) and at 5 or 6 would have plenty of spare diesel to change over all my other gas engine and replace with diesels. if you figure 3 gallons x 31 days or one month = 93 gallons of diesel if you only produce .75 gallons per hour and run continuous for 24 hour days that would be 18 gallons a day
 

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My question was not about the vapor as I have never seen a refinery without a flare. Even they can't seem to capture everything that will burn. My comment was about having it inside a building. Better have a good source of oil and some very good welding skills.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
being that guy is in the Netherlands I image it gets kinda cold and may have influenced his choice plus that was a temporary set up , me personally I somewhat agree with you mine will be set up way out in the back yard under a shade tree not indoors bt of course if I didn't leave in south Florida I mite rethink that:lol:


yep I can weld pretty decent or at least good enough for govt work:lol: I have welded everything form tube car frames to a patching a D-6 dozer back together
 

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You may have read this but I feel it is the best post on this forum about distillation:

kerrynzl
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You only need to raise the temperature to 350c-370c to visbreak [distill] oil to get a crude diesel .
The problem with visbreaking oil is only 65% is recoverable. Approx 15% is uncondensable gases which are used as fuel for the visbreaking process.
The remaining 20% is Heavy hydrocarbons which can be hydrocracked with superheated steam at temps above 1000c
If you only recover 65% usable product it needs to be economic which is Lube oils.

When I was living in China, we were involved in recycling tires to oil, shredded pieces were heated to 370c in a pyrolysis chamber.
They used to throw plastics and waste oil in with the tires , it didn't matter at all.
The percentages of oil recovered was 50% with tires [ 15% was steel, 15% was gases used for fuel and 20% was carbon black ]

The tire oil was a slightly tinted black and easy to polish clear.

With waste oil, it needs to be heated to about 85c for a few hours with a solution of about 10-15% H2SO4 [ sulphuric acid 98% concentrate]
The sulphuric acid is used to neutralize the dispersant salts and detergents in the oil that keep the particulants in suspension.
The sulphuric acid is then neutralised with NaOH [ Caustic Soda ] then the whole lot is filtered through Bentonite clay with a high calcium content resulting in a clear oil.
BIG PROBLEM's though, The sludge from the waste called "green acid" must be discarded. You also end up with a far higher percentage of waste than the H2SO4 volume because modern multi grade oils are full of viscousity improvers [ polymers ] which get separated out with the green acid.
So children, Don't try this at home [ it is now the domain of 3rd world countries ]
The modern method is to "Vacuum distill" at lower temperatures.

Why bother cleaning the oil of the carbon [ the black ] , carbon is the purest form of fuel and carbon is also a very good lubricant as well.
 

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Why bother cleaning the oil of the carbon [ the black ] , carbon is the purest form of fuel and carbon is also a very good lubricant as well.
Precisely vwluv10338, there is no reason to remove the black, other than esthetics. The black color of black diesel is dissolved free-carbon, which seems to burn just fine in a diesel engine.

Jerry, the flare that one finds at refineries is typically light hydro carbons (methane, propane and butane) being vented off. Refineries in the 50s used to have many flares and much larger flames. Now days there are few flares and they are much smaller, because they are using more of the fuel from each barrel of crude.

While distillation of waste oils could work to make diesel fuel, I believe it is dangerous and complicated for the average amateur and should be left for the professional chemists to engage in industrial parks with lots of money to purchase lots of scientific instruments to monitor the process, such as O2 sensors to keep the stream in the distillation column properly purged of O2.
 

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"such as O2 sensors to keep the stream in the distillation column properly purged of O2"

And thus my warning to build the house in the next county and buy insurance. The problem with these kinds of operations is that everything goes along easy and as planned until it goes south and then it is so fast and so bad there are many regrets left behind. Better cheaper and easier to filter. I truly admire these folks for their energy and ingenuity. It amazes me what people will think of and do.
 
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