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Probably should just drop the tank, clean it, dry it and be done with the possibility of water from that fillup. Future fillups is another deal altogether.
I still am bothered by the amount of water you have come up with....doesn't make sense.
 

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If the water/fuel seperator was doing its job then the components downstream should not have been exposed to enough water to cause damage.

As suggested above, dropping the tank one time and just being done with it might offer greater peace of mind.

One question I would have for Ford is whether your future warranty is now in jeopardy since they have a record of this tied to the VIN. If that is the case then you have suffered a real financial loss and might want to check with your insurance company since the resale value of the truck is diminished.

Could this be covered under Comprehensive?
 

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Discussion Starter #23
Giving it until the end of the Holiday weekend

If the water/fuel seperator was doing its job then the components downstream should not have been exposed to enough water to cause damage.

As suggested above, dropping the tank one time and just being done with it might offer greater peace of mind.

One question I would have for Ford is whether your future warranty is now in jeopardy since they have a record of this tied to the VIN. If that is the case then you have suffered a real financial loss and might want to check with your insurance company since the resale value of the truck is diminished.

Could this be covered under Comprehensive?
I agree. I am going to put small amounts of fuel in the tank for now. I ran it to almost empty and put 3 gallons in. I'll do that a couple times and continue to empty the fuel water separator after each drive. If the fuel doesn't clear up after just a couple of these drives, then I will contact my insurance and let them talk to Ford.

I wonder what fuel looks like if someone adds DEF to the fuel. An experiment is in order with some of the fuel I pull out. The only people who have put DEF in the truck would have been Ford.

What I don't get is the real cloudiness of the fuel. You can't even see thru an 8 oz glass of the stuff. Ford won't admit to biomass in the tank because of the water. BTW Costco fuel is listed as Top Tier if you are curious.
 

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This is supposed to be diesel in the def tank. So same thing.


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If you think it might be bacterial growth, add a diesel fuel biocide...
 

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Discussion Starter #26
not sure

If you think it might be bacterial growth, add a diesel fuel biocide...
I'm a little timid about adding a biocide at this point. If I have a failure at this point, I don't want a unapproved additive in there. I have used Stanadyne to give the Fuel/Water separator a helping hand in pulling the water out.

The previous picture looks exactly like what I was seeing. I say "was" because it has gotten better. I ordered a filter set (motorcraft) from Rock Auto and once I believe it's close to looking normal, I am going to replace the filters.



I
 

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My concern is that Ford now has documentation that you have WIF and IF you should decide not to follow their recommended procedure to replace all components that could have made contact with the contaminated fuel then will your warranty be effected?

Now lets say that your truck experiences a mechanical issue a year from now and you take it in under warranty. Can Ford deny the warranty work by saying the issue is a result of the WIF "if" you should fail to follow their repair procedure at this time?

I wonder if having introduced this issue to Ford and not following their recommended service may have greater implications than the immediate concern of cloudy fuel.
 

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If you think it might be bacterial growth, add a diesel fuel biocide...
I'm a little timid about adding a biocide at this point. If I have a failure at this point, I don't want a unapproved additive in there. I have used Stanadyne to give the Fuel/Water separator a helping hand in pulling the water out.
A small amount of Stanadyne Performance additive is insufficient to chemically treat the quantity of water that is present in your fuel tank. If you are not going to drop the tank then the amount of water will atleast require a fuel additive dedicated to water removal by chemical means and in sufficient quantity to allow the chemical reaction to take place. Not just an all-in-one product that lubricates and increases cetane.

Most truck owner don't realize this until they have experienced it.
 

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The cloudiness of the diesel fuel is the result of it being emulsified with water. There have been major differences of opinion on the best way to treat minute amounts of water in fuel...some contend it is best to "demulsify" the fuel (using a product like Stanadyne) while other argue encouraging "emulsification" is best. There are good arguments from both camps but they are discussing small amounts of water. For example:

According to the Stanadyne website:
"Helps Remove Water – special demulsifiers cause tiny water droplets to come out of suspension/emulsion, so the filter/separator can more effectively remove water"

And the counterpoint:
The downside to a Demulsifier causing excess water to fall out of the fuel is the water will sink below the diesel and sit in the bottom of the tank where it contribute to corrosion/microbial growth and may possibly freeze in the fuel lines during winter months.

However, I think everyone agrees that when significant amounts of water are introduced into the fuel tank such as in your case then a more aggressive method of removal must occur or large amounts of water can be introduced to the mechanical filter TOO FAST allowing some water to reach the injectors and combustion chamber.


Another negative to a passive approach to water removal is the longer water is present in a fuel system the greater the opportunity of microbial development. BTW, microbes will not be distributed equally throughout the fuel tank, it will be heavily concentrated in a layer at the interface of the water and fuel layers so your fuel pick up might not access this layer and therefore it won't be visible in your sample bottle. I think everyone agrees that microbial contamination of diesel is a bad thing.

Unfortunately, an "all-in-one" product like Stanadyne Performance or Diesel-Kleen additive cannot remove significant amounts of water such as you have in your fuel. Here is a good explanation by Power Service of why you must use a product dedicated only to treating water contaminated fuel:

"There is a lot of misinformation about additives and water dispersants. When you use an additive like our Diesel Fuel Supplement or Diesel Kleen these are mixtures of additives in a package. These various chemicals have to be balanced so they will not separate when you mix them together. It doesn't matter if you use our additives or one of our competitors, a good water dispersant takes a lot of room in the additive package. If you add a strong detergent, strong cetane, excellent lubricity, corrosion, top of the line antigel, and stability to the additive package there is not much room left for a water dispersant. A good multiple benefit package will always have a weak water dispersant package. It is a matter of chemistry. The only way to get a strong water dispersant is to get an additive whose top attribute is to control water like our Diesel 911. It takes a lot of water dispersant to take care of free water so it will take up a lot of room in a container."

Probably should just drop the tank, clean it, dry it and be done with the possibility of water from that fillup. Future fillups is another deal altogether.
I still am bothered by the amount of water you have come up with....doesn't make sense.
Both Ford and Wingnut are on the right track about dropping the tank but at the very least, you might want to add Diesel 911 or a similar dedicated product that will aggressively deal with the presence of WIF.

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Discussion Starter #31
All great points and information.

Thank you all very much. All of this info is really helping and I agree with all of it. I am going to go ahead and call my insurance on Tuesday and see what they say. Believe me, I am fully engaged and researching to figure out the best way to handle this. This is / was a $60K truck. I have less than 1500 miles on it. This is killing me. I did not decline the recommended service from Ford.

I understand that dropping the tank is the right answer and I am trying to figure out if that is something I really want to do my self. Like I said, I have 1500 miles and I am going to drop the tank?? I'm hoping that Geico will help.

Since the service adviser didn't have a response from Ford before I left, I should have a copy of the paper work next week. I am going to try and get it faxed to me on Tuesday. Then I will provide a copy to my insurance and go from there.

Thanks again to everyone for the info. This really, really sucks. It was either Ford's fault or Costco's. I can't prove which party screwed up my truck and that is why I think my insurance needs to become involved. :frown2:
 

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Discussion Starter #32
Costco fuel station

I drove down to the Costco station and actually got to talk to the fuel station supervisor. Super cool guy. Our Costco station is only about 8 months old. He told me that they are not only Top Tier, they are Top Tier 5 meaning the best of the best.

He showed me the monitoring and alarm systems and as I watched he printed out this ticker tape that had all the info about each gas and fuel tank. One of the items was water content. His diesel tank showed 0. He stated that if he gets an inch of water in any tank, alarms go off and they have to shut down the tank.

He showed me this paste, I can't remember the name but every 4 days they sample each tank. This paste, if it comes in contact with any water, it lights up bright bright green.

What I am getting at here is that if my insurance will take the issue and run with it, Ford may have some explaining to do. The truck is still running like a top. The fuel is nearly clean coming out of the separator now. I have saved 10 gallons of the contaminated stuff that I siphoned out.

What I think it boils down to for ford is either it is bad fuel caused by condensation/biomass or the tech who filled it up when I bought it put some DEF in the tank.
 

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Get a hold of a testing facility and send in some of the fuel you drained. They should be able to tell you what it is. (Rather water or def)


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Discussion Starter #34
All over it.

Get a hold of a testing facility and send in some of the fuel you drained. They should be able to tell you what it is. (Rather water or def)


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I am going to call a couple places on Tuesday. Thanks for the recommendation.
 

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It would be a good idea to have the tank leak tested. Diesels do not have to have the leak testing by engine control system with associated fault codes and warning lights/messages. Diesel fuel is not so vaporous as to be readily smelled in passing if it does leak. If the sender/fuel pump assembly (called a fuel pump module by many) seal leaks then rain water can get in. This finding would make the problem wholly Ford's responsibility. If the truck is going to be dismantled then this can be done with a pressure regulator plugged into the vent line for tank and a less than 1 psi pressure applied. Then soapy water is used on fittings and the fuel pump module cap to see if bubbles appear. Once the tank is dismantled you lose the opportunity to prove this. If the tank is being dropped it is very little additional labor. They leave things connected and only drop tank an inch or two once the straps are removed and the access for squirting soapy water is available.
 

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Discussion Starter #36
Another good one

It would be a good idea to have the tank leak tested. Diesels do not have to have the leak testing by engine control system with associated fault codes and warning lights/messages. Diesel fuel is not so vaporous as to be readily smelled in passing if it does leak. If the sender/fuel pump assembly (called a fuel pump module by many) seal leaks then rain water can get in. This finding would make the problem wholly Ford's responsibility. If the truck is going to be dismantled then this can be done with a pressure regulator plugged into the vent line for tank and a less than 1 psi pressure applied. Then soapy water is used on fittings and the fuel pump module cap to see if bubbles appear. Once the tank is dismantled you lose the opportunity to prove this. If the tank is being dropped it is very little additional labor. They leave things connected and only drop tank an inch or two once the straps are removed and the access for squirting soapy water is available.
You know, I kind of thought about this possibility since it rains here so much this time of year. The only thing is, now I am seeing really good looking fuel with water separated out. I am very anxious to get the lousy fuel tested for contamination. Here is what I am pulling out. The second picture shows the water at the bottom from the most recent drain of the fuel water separator. [Please note, this is not an add for the brewer. It's just what's on the growler]



 

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Its not surprising the diesel has cleared up since you have fresh diesel that has not had a chance to emulsify and you also are running a demulsifier (Stanadyne Performance). Its sure looking like an improvement but it is still quite a bit of water under the circumstances since the fuel pick up line in the tank is always lifted a bit off the bottom of the tank where the free water would be located.

How many hours was the fuel pump on since your last fuel bowl drain effort?

Good luck tomorrow.
 

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Discussion Starter #38
Thanks

Its not surprising the diesel has cleared up since you have fresh diesel that has not had a chance to emulsify and you also are running a demulsifier (Stanadyne Performance). Its sure looking like an improvement bu it is still a bit of water under the circumstances since the fuel pick up line in the tank is always lifted a bit off the bottom of the tank where the water would be located.

How many hours was the fuel pump on since your last fuel bowl drain effort?

Good luck tomorrow.
First off, thanks and thanks for all the thoughtful advise. There was maybe 3 hours on the fuel pump since the last drain.

Tomorrow is going to be interesting. I will recap what I can tomorrow evening when my day settles down a bit. I am going to keep going with the Stanadyne if that will help the water fall out of the fuel. I put in 1/2 a tank yesterday of fresh fuel. I will drain the separator every other day this week to try and get an idea of the continued water problem. I got a fresh set of motorcraft filters from Rock Auto. $45. FD4625
 

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First off, thanks and thanks for all the thoughtful advise. There was maybe 3 hours on the fuel pump since the last drain.

Tomorrow is going to be interesting. I will recap what I can tomorrow evening when my day settles down a bit. I am going to keep going with the Stanadyne if that will help the water fall out of the fuel. I put in 1/2 a tank yesterday of fresh fuel. I will drain the separator every other day this week to try and get an idea of the continued water problem. I got a fresh set of motorcraft filters from Rock Auto. $45. FD4625

It won't serve much benefit to replace the filters until the water is removed from the tank and the only way to do that is with dropping the tank.

A demulsifier prevents the fuel from getting cloudy but it does not remove water from the tank. In fact, it results in more free water in the tank (which the fuel floats on).

When "The service adviser recommended I just get as much of the bad fuel out and run it down and put fresh fuel in it and just keep doing that", did he say to use a demulsifier?

Your continued operation of this engine while it has this much water is a double edged sword, especially when using a demulsifier. It does pull the fuel & water into the separator so that the free water can be filtered out and drained but it simultaneously increases the likelihood your pump is pulling too much free water and overwhelming the fuel filters and therefore allowing some water to get past since they can only remove so much water at a time (the greater the flow rate the greater the chance the filters are being overwhelmed). So running the engine with quantities of water like you have means the water is very likely entering the injectors either in an emulsified form or now a free water form.

The best thing you could be doing when large quantities of WIF is found is to leave it parked until you can drop the tank.
 

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Discussion Starter #40
I understand

It won't serve much benefit to replace the filters until the water is removed from the tank and the only way to do that is with dropping the tank.

A demulsifier prevents the fuel from getting cloudy but it does not remove water from the tank. In fact, it results in more free water in the tank (which the fuel floats on).

When "The service adviser recommended I just get as much of the bad fuel out and run it down and put fresh fuel in it and just keep doing that", did he say to use a demulsifier?

Your continued operation of this engine while it has this much water is a double edged sword, especially when using a demulsifier. It does pull the fuel & water into the separator so that the free water can be filtered out and drained but it simultaneously increases the likelihood your pump is pulling too much free water and overwhelming the fuel filters and therefore allowing some water to get past since they can only remove so much water at a time (the greater the flow rate the greater the chance the filters are being overwhelmed). So running the engine with quantities of water like you have means the water is very likely entering the injectors either in an emulsified form or now a free water form.

The best thing you could be doing when large quantities of WIF is found is to leave it parked until you can drop the tank.
I understand what you're saying. In either circumstance, water is not good for the injectors or any other part of the fuel system. I can't believe that free water is more of a threat than emulsified fuel/water. The fuel water separator is made for the express purpose of trapping free water isn't it? If it can hold 7oz of water and I am pulling out 1/4oz amounts right now, I have to conclude that pulling the water out of the fuel is protecting the engine more than letting the water ride in the fuel so to speak.

I guess what gets me is why even have a fuel water separator? If every time you find a drop of water in it, you have to go to total emergency measures to remove it. If the fuel pickup sits just above the bottom of the tank, then why would you ever get any water in the separator unless you have a large amount of water in your fuel. My fuel water separator on my 6.0 and boats I have worked on have had water in the separator and some times in large amounts. We didn't remove tanks. I know these engines are probably very finicky and the injectors may be damaged but that is where my insurance will step in. At least I hope.

Anyway, I am calling the dealer first thing to get a copy of whatever they recommended. Then I am calling my insurance. After that, I will have a better idea of which way this is going to go. If it comes down to me dropping the tank then so be it. I hope not.
 
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