[TDIDog]

Hello all and greetings. I have been recruited to work on a 2005 E450. The guy had started to change 3 injectors and I ended up coming in with my cape and getting that done. The thing is I and not a PSD dog, I'm a Deere dog and VW TDI dog, so I'm hoping I didn't mess anything up.

The problem is hard starting. From the hours I have spent reading here, I belive I can rule out anything in the high pressure oil system and here's why: If I cycle the key on and wait for the fuel pump to stop running the engine fires after 2-3 seconds of cranking and then starts with authority. If I cycle the key on and wait only, say 10 seconds, it cranks long time, slowly picking up speed as some injectors start to fire. Eventually it will start --after cranking maybe 20 seconds-- and when it does, it does so reluctantly before finally settling at an idle. After running, I can turn it off and immediately recyle the key to start and if the engine is warm, it may only take a few seconds of cranking, but it still does the same thing of picking up speed, then reluctanly starting.

My thinking is that the fuel is draining out of the secondary and it has to refill and get back to the injectors before starting again.

I'll be back around this evening to answer any questions.

Thanks for any help.

Dog

The problem is solved. It was the ICP sensor. I don't know how or why, but see post 43 for what I found.

 

[2 Stroker]

Welcome
Have you pull the top filter to see if there is fuel there also i would check the FICM weak or bad batteries will kill it. You have all Ford filter in, oil-fuel here is the check

2 stroker:ford:

 

[TDIDog]

Thanks 2 stroker. Sadly, on his parts shelf all I see is NAPA blue and gold. But here's the thing, this is a new problem that started after the injectors were put in and the only filter that was changed was the secondary fuel -- something I just remembered as I was typing this sentence. I notice on the underside of the filter cap are some lugs that line up with lugs on the top of the filter and I know that I struggled with that (it's a van, remember) so I wonder if there is some kind of FoMoCo magic needed when installing that filter as far as aligning those lugs.

I have looked at the FICM and it appears that I would need to unbolt it to access the test port on the side opposite the plugs. Is that correct? One thing that I noticed about the FICM is the Reman tag on it. I know nothing about the history on this rig so I am crippled a bit there, but are the remans as least as reliable as new? And batteries -- thank you for the reminder. I need to check them just because.

But even with these electrical possibilties that I WILL check, I am still stuck thinking about how cycling the key on until the pump stops running would make it start easy if it was electrical. I'm still very green with the PSD so hopefully I can learn something about the double-top-secret electrical uniquedness.

A guy up in Alaska had fuel troubles and he checked the fuel pressure and found that it dropped right back to zero after shutting it off. Well one reply said his held 65PSI overnight and someone else said it's normal for them to drop right off. Well, I found a fuel system schematic and it showed three checkvalves. One at each head (right in the banjo fitting IIRC) and one in one of the filter heads. Since this is a non-return system, it appears to me that the check valve in the filter head should hold pressure. Does this sound right?

One last thing for now. On the cap of the secondary filter, near the top threads, are two small holes, 180 degrees apart from each other. In the housing, on the drivers side near the top, is a corresponding machined void in the threads and possibly a hole there. Do these things have any significance to anything? When tightened, the holes and the void are 90 degrees apart from each other.

(And 2stroker, I spent my pre-teen years in Goble)

 

[TDIDog]

Just remembered another question I need to ask about that start sequence. I keep forgetting to listen for the clicking of the injectors, but I should be hearing that, right? then how long should that fuel pump run, if it is in fact the fuel pump running? And at one time it sounded like the pump ran in two stages. It would run for anywhere from 10 to 15 seconds, then it would sould like it started pumping --- well, differently. Maybe it was pumping harder (though I don't think so) or maybe it was pumping easier which is what I think based on my vast two weeks of experience with PSD. So maybe he just has a pump going south??

BTW, if anyone has questions on VW TDIs of yellow Deere, feel free to PM me and pick my brain since I'm picking yours on the PSD.

 

[jbthomp]

thats a very interesting problem lol. first off the lugs on the filter cap are supposed to lock on the filter so it stays attatched to the cap when you remove it. the only way that can be your problem is if the filter is not seated in the housing all the way. there is a valve in the bottom of the filter housing that does not let the engine run if the filter is removed. id pull the filter back out and look at it and see if maybe it is crushed or something. also are you sure it is the right filter? the only other thing i can think of is maybe you didnt get the injectors torqued down all the way? did you make sure the injector was seated in the hold down correctly?

 

[TDIDog]

When the injectors were in (I replaced 3 of them) none of them appeared to be higher than the others so I don't know how to be sure if the holder was installed correctly. The indexing notch was installed with Slot A in Notch A. Also the van runs well with no missing or any excessive smoke, so do you think that would rule out injector problems?

Unfortunately it's out on a run tonight so I wasn't able to take a look and see if I can plug into the back of the head to check fuel pressure or do any electrical testing. The driver should be happy to have full power now that the CAC hoses are all installed correctly so they only have the long wait to start scheme to deal with. Oh, and the intermittant coolant leak from somewhere that isn't the water pump, but that's for another thread.

 

[speedrcr78]

Does the truck run fine once it is started? Is there fuel in the upper bowl when you shut truck off?? Is there a pressure release when you pop the top?

 

[TDIDog]

Does the truck run fine once it is started? Is there fuel in the upper bowl when you shut truck off?? Is there a pressure release when you pop the top?

At last report the van (bus actually) ran fine once started.

I have not checked for fuel in the upper bowl, though I do recall that there wasn't much in there when I changed the filter but we had just had the injectors out so I attributed it to that. Should the filter remain full? I would think that it should.

As to the pressure release when I pop the top. Well, for some reason the owner said that turning the cap a bit back from tight made a change in "something" (don't ask me what) so at one point he was cranking the engine as I was turning the cap and when he cranked, the cap was harder to turn than if he wasn't cranking the engine. So from that, I would assume there would be no pressure release when the cap is removed.

On another, related note, I found the 6.0 Bible and in that I found the schematic of the fuel supply system on page 28 and I see that the fuel pressure would bleed back to tank through the DTRM if the fuel was warm and the valve was shifted to send the fuel back to tank. So if the fuel pressure is dropping off even when it's not warm enough to shift the valve, maybe the valve is stuck since I see no other way for the pressure to drop. But even if the DTRM is shifted to return the fuel to the filter, it would still have a path to tank through the filter. I'm certainly getting to the point of overthinking this, I think.

I guess what I'm looking for is a definitve about if the fuel pressure should always drop after shut-off.

 

[TDIDog]

Any new thoughts on this? I still haven't been able to get my grubbys on the van so I have no new information. I did just buy a Scantool cable and software for my laptop so I am hoping that I will be able to get some decent information about what is going on when it gets here next week.

 

[dieselmac]

I'd still look into the FICM before chasing fuel delivery issues. I've seen them start out at low voltages when you put the key in the on position and slowly build up to low to mid 40 volts w/in 5-10 secs.

You can check it without removing it in a truck. Not sure about a van. But if you have some software you should be able to watch the FICM_MPWR, FICM_LPWR, and FICM_VPWR PIDs.

FICM_MPWR is the infamous 48 volts. Shouldn't drop below 46 at KOEO, cranking, or KOER.

FICM_LPWR is logic power to the FICM. Should run at battery voltage. Don't be fooled by a low reading at first. The glow plugs can run up to ~2 minutes and suck down voltage pretty good.

FICM_VPWR is vehicle power to the FICM. This is the voltage that gets stepped up to the 48volts. It should not drop below 10.25 for more than 60 seconds, or 9.0 for 4 seconds.

 

[TDIDog]

I'd still look into the FICM before chasing fuel delivery issues. I've seen them start out at low voltages when you put the key in the on position and slowly build up to low to mid 40 volts w/in 5-10 secs.

You can check it without removing it in a truck. Not sure about a van. But if you have some software you should be able to watch the FICM_MPWR, FICM_LPWR, and FICM_VPWR PIDs.

FICM_MPWR is the infamous 48 volts. Shouldn't drop below 46 at KOEO, cranking, or KOER.

FICM_LPWR is logic power to the FICM. Should run at battery voltage. Don't be fooled by a low reading at first. The glow plugs can run up to ~2 minutes and suck down voltage pretty good.

FICM_VPWR is vehicle power to the FICM. This is the voltage that gets stepped up to the 48volts. It should not drop below 10.25 for more than 60 seconds, or 9.0 for 4 seconds.

Thanks DM. The part about the power building up was one scenario running through my dogbrain that didn't seem right but I am glad to hear that it's possible since it gives me something else to check for.

On the van, the FICm is located directly below the Driver's A-pillar behind the Degas bottle. Three bolts (Or two on a well-worked on rig) and the Degas bottle comes out and lifts out of the way. Apparently it's a bit easier than on a truck. Then it looks like I unbolt it to access the cover plate on the side opposite the connectors.

I need to throw my DVOM in with the rest of my tools in the Rescue Beetle, I guess. I have a battery load tester, various adapters to get into the fuel system on the back of the head and a 100# gauge/gage. Of course right now I also have a flat blade shovel back there and without good information, it would be just as effective as the other tools so I thank you for that information.

Dog

Edit: I forgot something: Is the Glow plug system smart enough to know when they aren't needed? On my VWs, if the ambient air is more than about 40 Deg. it won't cycle the plugs at all to start the engine, though it may after glow for emissions. Anything like that on the Fords?

 

[dieselmac]

They are "smart" glow plugs. If the PCM detects EOT less than 131*F it immediately fires the glow plugs. After they're on, it looks at some other sensor that I can't remember (ambient temp??) to determine how long they are on. Up to 120 seconds max.

If EOT is greater than 131*F the PCM will not energize the glow plug relay.

They are not used on shutdown.

 

[TDIDog]

Mac, what I was refering to as afterglow was after the engine starts, it cycles the glow plugs as needed to maintain better combustion for emissions, but that's getting a bit off topic and I have a habit of derailing my own threads so I'll stop now.:lol:

 

[dieselmac]

Ahhhh, didn't really think about my interpretation of afterglow. Seems kinda silly now that I think about it. :lol: Always interesting to see how other guys do it.

 

[TDIDog]

I'm feeling a bit embarrassed that I forgot a bit of infomation. We have a P2285 and/or P2286 code. I checked the connection and it's fine although somewhere along the line the little thing in the sensor side of the connection that separates the connections is missing, though I just can't imagine that being the problem. It really seems like the last time I looked, it had both of those codes which seems to indicate a bad ICP sensor? Do you concur?

But the question is would this cause the problem I have described? I didn't think that it would so I left it out. After more research, I'm starting to wonder.

Since the ICP reads high pressure oil, it isn't getting any reading while sitting there waiting for the fuel pump to fill everything, but maybe it's "warming up" like dieselmac said the FICM could? I guess that would be another thing to check once I get something other than a code reader.

Mac, if you're still with me here, (After the holidays, of course) you said "I've seen them start out at low voltages when you put the key in the on position and slowly build up to low to mid 40 volts w/in 5-10 secs." Do you recall if this happened on just the first start or would it do this even with a warm engine?

 

[TDIDog]

And happy 4th of July to everyone.

 

[dieselmac]

It could be the ICP sensor. The PCM will not fire the injectors until it detects at least 500psig from the ICP sensor. For a quick check, unplug the ICP sensor and see if it runs better. Without it the PCM defaults to an assumed ICP strategy.

The FICM's really have no rhyme-nor-reason to how the voltage jumps around. Some would slowly climb up to normal, some not. Hot start vs. cold start didn't really seem to make a difference.

 

[TDIDog]

The ICP is an esay check and the FICM a bit more difficult and though are worth checking and will be done, if you could hear this hard start, I bet you would say it's a fuel issue, not electrical. If I unplug the CTS will that give a full glow plug cycle? BTW, now that I think about it the VWs use coolant AND ambient temp to decide if the glow plugs are needed since unplugging the CTS gives a full cycle to the GPs.

 

[dieselmac]

Not sure. If the PCM doesn't detect a value it assumes one. Can't remember what that is, though.

How about plugging in the block heater for a while.

 

[TDIDog]

The block heater was used a couple of times with mixed results. Unfortunately, I wasn't there to see exactly what they did or how long they had the key turned over, etc. so I don't really trust what they told me. Remember, the #1 step in troubleshooting is to verify the complaint and I wasn't able to verify that one. The same guy that said the truck started easier after being plugged in is the same guy that said it started easier after turning the secondary FF cap back a quarter turn, if you get my drift.

So, unplug the ICP, check voltage at the FICM, then check fuel pressure at the back of the head.

I still have some nagging doubts about my installation of the secondary FF though. I guess I should double check that as well. What to look for though? Pull the cap and look for fuel in the canister, but what else? Have someone cycle the key on while I watch the canister fill with fuel? It should fill up then stay filled up, I would hope.